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The Burqa - Banned
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
The Ticino region of Switzerland is set to ban the Burqa, and furthermore, heavily fine those women who wear one in public.
The support for such legislation seems overwhelming.
The Burqa is not decreed by the Qu'ran as being a required item of clothing. It's not Islamic Law.
@DhammaDragon as a resident of Switzerland, do you see this legislations spreading....?
Personally, I sure hope so.
France has done it, and in spite of Lawyers arguing on behalf of Muslims in the European Court of HUman Rights, the ban was upheld.
I cannot for the life of me understand why we still permit it in the UK, let alone anywhere else.
Comments?
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Comments
Should we ban the bikini too?
Please don't be fatuous, it's a serious question.
I think we've really reached a sad state of affairs when governments are dictating to citizens what they can or can't wear. I also think that hiding one's face in public, or being forced to hide one's face in public is wrong. Face coverings should be worn only for safety or climatic reasons (e.g. a balaclava seems to me to be suitable when one is outdoors in freezing temperatures for hours at a time, not so much on a Belfast street or when entering a bank).
So yeah, I'm torn between individual rights and public security concerns on this issue.
Will I still be allowed to wear a kirpan (ceremonial knife) if converting to Sikhism? Remain unwashed if converting to jainism and of course wearing a mask so I don't breath in insects?
Never really felt threatened by clothing ...
If you go to a bank and you're wearing a crash helmet, for security reasons, you have to remove it.
There have been real critical situations in which men have worn burquas and disguised themselves as women to avoid identification and detection.
It's a very real current security risk.
Look at the majority of videos posted by terrorist groups. The majority of those appearing in these videos hide their faces.
'nuff said.
Actually, no. Which is why most Sikhs actually wear a ceremonial pin, or very small knife (under 3" long) in order to comply with British current legislation. While sikhism requires the wearing of specific symbolic items, conformity to Law is not a problem or issue.
If you enjoy smelling of fish and don't mind comments, that's up to you.
Never BEEN threatened by it either, I'm sure.
But simply because you've never felt threatened by the lion on a Nature reserve, you're not going to get up close and personal to see whether he will bite or not.
I do not care if they wear hijab or not if they are willing to remove it when asked to do so on various necessary grounds... I see no justification when they exercise their right to wear hijab in the court of Law....
Burqa is kind of slavery to ladies and also to men in some extend. Whenever i see lady in burqa i used to be very eager to see that who is inside the nakaab. As i grow older i started to feel lust about women under nakaab because it makes impression that object which is hidden must be so valuable.
Many times i realised the ladies which seemed to be very ugly and old also wear burqa from that time i laugh whenever i see women in burqa and ignore them. But initially i thought that it creates more lust in man. Many times i had feel depressed to see that girls which are ambitious and eligible to have some position in society have to wear burqa as they have no face in life and just have to serve there hubby as like that they are object not a human being.
I feel bad whenever I go in mall and see some lady waiting in burqa and looking at all other people enjoying weekends in different kind of colorful clothes and smiling.
It's not so easy to know if it's right or not. For me, I mean. Depends the angle you look at it. I understand from a security standpoint, but at what point do we all have to just go naked? To someone from the US where people can open carry knives and guns (in some locations especially) banning headwear seems a bit extreme (not that our weapons culture isn't as well, of course, I'm not saying it should be the example we base everything on, lol, it's just weird to me because of that). I can also see the point of view that Burqa and others like it turn women into slaves of their cultures and beliefs.
But I've also had women who have lived in those cultures say that many women prefer it because they are protecting their femininity that they believe is sacred. So who is to say which women wear it out of forced slavery and which do it out of sacred protection? Is that for us to judge, or to rather teach them how to decide for themselves? Are those who wear it to protect something about themselves, say the outward judgement of men, wrong just because society tends to cheer on wearing sexy clothes to attract men? Why shouldn't people have the choice?
I think we tend to take security as far as clothing too far. My 7 year old can't wear his winter hat below his eyebrows no matter how cold it gets here in MN because it's a "security issue" on the playground. The kids who wear baseball caps must remove them before they enter the building because of security issues.
It just stinks to live in a culture of "everyone is really a suspect of something."
In any case, I have mixed feelings on whether governments should be banning things because they have determined they (govt) needs to protect people from themselves.
" si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi"
( Roughly translated "When in Rome do as the Romans do" )
I didn't know we had a member from Switzerland. I'd like to know how Switzerland is dealing with the refugee crisis; in the US we never hear about Switzerland in connection with this. Are refugees flooding into Switzerland, like they are into Austria and Germany? What is the government's policy toward them, or the individual cantons' policy? How are they being accepted by the local population?
Switzerland is land-locked. It's right slap-bang in the middle of mainland Europe. In spite of this it neither belongs to the EU, nor is obliged to conform to EU regulations. therefore in may ways it's a law unto itself.
Our American members find it difficult to understand that such legislation is not an abuse of power, nor is it an infringement of civil liberty.
It's plain and simple: National Law trumps personal preference. And wearing a veil has nothing to do with religious law.
And Law is scribed for the good, the general good and widespread benefit of society, not the individual.
This is an interesting article, too.
I don't know who's been speaking for Americans, but I certainly don't think it's an infringement. I'm typically interested in things that make sense for the circumstances.
Sorry. I posted this in another forum, which is frequented by and large by a majority of Americans. You should hear how up in arms they are about this...!
While I have issues with the current world situation, I must say this is just dumb. As long as nobody or no set of ethics anywhere make such a thing mandatory (which they do not), I see no reason for it to be banned. It is just cloth.
While we're on the subject, I also think it is just as stupid to disallow the non-Muslim from wearing one should they choose to. Just saying...
@federica it is plain and simple to you because that is how your law-making works and the process your culture makes. Just because ours is different doesn't make either of them right or wrong. They are just different.
It's interesting that I feel conflicted about this. As a Canadian, I think I'm somewhere in the middle of the spectrum between the European/British and American outlooks.
Just to be clear are they talking about banning just the full face covered veil and not the head scarf or both? I don't know that I've ever seen or heard of anyone wearing the full veil in the US, I hear the Muslim communities in Europe tend to not be as integrated and are cloistered so maybe they would maintain that tradition more in that context.
It always makes me smile when I see a woman with a headscarf with her cell phone tucked up in it using it as a hands free device.
What a pretty woman. Who could look at that face and think "she needs to die".
Sorry to get off topic. I just had to say that.
Hijab=head scarf
Burqa=full body covering, usually leaving only the eyes exposed
Another thought on the government law making idea is that, in the US at least, I don't trust the majority of our law makers to make laws regarding me that are not based on their own beliefs. It happens all too often, and that is another problem we experience here that perhaps others do not. It isn't so easy as to say "the national government can make rules that trump individual liberty" because we have so many who would make laws limiting the actual freedoms of others because of their own religious beliefs. Unfortunately, simple common sense and logic is often not used when making laws in this country. Which way all the laws go depends entirely on who controls the majority whether it's local school boards, state governments or federal/national governments. For example, back when it was up to states to pass gay marriage laws, my state never would have passed marriage equality if we hadn't had a democratic-led house, senate and governor. Republicans in the same situation never would have passed it, all because of their religious beliefs.
So, it's not always the case everywhere that those at the top know what is best for the people. Because their own personal bias gets in the way, too.
How is there any question that given men are dressing up in these to disguise themselves as women to do stuff like kill people, it needs to be done now FOR the present situation.
People will always find ways to disguise themselves though. Are we going to ban haircuts, hair dye, hats, cross dressing and everything else, too?
Ok, let's try to break this down:
The burka is controversial primarily because it covers the face - which is the number one thing we identify a person (visually) by. So there's a taboo, in Europe certainly, against covering it. Some groups we associate with face covering:
The IRA, Bank robbers, The Klu Klux Klan.
People concealing their faces because they're up to no good and they want to avoid being recognised.
In some cases, covering their faces up will form part of the process of intimidating others. Mistrust of people who cover their faces isn't even just a human thing. I've seen women in burkas get barked at by dogs in the park more than once - to the great embarrassment of their owners. I've been barked at before just for having my hood up. Dogs aren't politically correct. They see something that strikes them as dodgy, and they'll make their feelings clear. A human covering their face tends to elicit a knee-jerk sense of mistrust.
To compound the problem, burkas are associated primarily with regions where militant Islamism prevails. That's political as much as it's religious - or more so. It's also extremely anti-Western. So when a woman wears a burka here, it elicits all sorts of reactions. Gut fear and mistrust because our instincts ask "why is this person concealing their identity? What wrongdoing are they up to?" On a more conscious level, we associate it with strongly anti-Western ideology...and it also creates a strong sense of segregation. Them and Us. For all these reasons, I think that many people regard the burka as a profoundly disrespectful garment for anybody to wear in the West.
Should that be sufficient reason for the law to ban it? Well, I think the more a particular society taxes and regulates its citizens as part of promoting better integration programmes the more of a corresponding right those citizens have to argue for the abolition of things that, in their view, encourage segregation and impede integration.
As well as contributing towards an atmosphere of fear and suspicion for the reasons usually associated with a person concealing their identity, the burka creates a strong barrier between its wearer and other people. In a society where segregation isn't seen as a problem, where taxpayers aren't required to fund programmes promoting better integration...somebody segregating themselves from others by wearing a burka maybe wouldn't be so frowned upon. It wouldn't matter so much that there was a sense of "them and us". It wouldn't matter so much that the burka elicited feelings of fear and mistrust about the wearer concealing their identity...because in that segregated society it would be considered the norm for people to feel that way. There wouldn't be a taboo or stigma about it. It would be okay for people to bodyswerve or shun others in a "you're not one of my kind" way. To send out non verbal signals of "I want absolutely nothing to do with you. I want to keep myself separate from you by creating as much of a barrier as I can." It would be okay, because segregation would be normal.
But that is not the sort of society we have, and I think it's not the sort of society we want. The promotion of segregation, through clothing that serves as a barrier from others - and elicits feelings of mistrust and unease in them due to its concealing nature and the traditional taboos associated with concealment of the face - is not okay in societies that are trying very hard to promote integration. It doesn't suddenly become okay because the person engaging in it is Muslim.
Yeah, I know...It's a little easier to hide weapons, bombs, etc. under a 'long dress' - a hair cut isn't gonna help that, I don't think.
Well, in the good old gun-totin' USA, I have a problem with government telling anyone what they can and can't wear. Here in the USA some communities have tried to ban wearing pants low and showing underwear because they're proudly racist and them black guys with their stupid looking pants bother them. Why, I got no idea. Never stand up in court, but that doesn't stop them.
There is no real public safety issue to the burqa, only an imaginary one. No terrorist or suicide bomber is going to say "Well, I would strap this bomb to my chest and go blow myself up but I can't go outside without covering my face. Darn, if only they'd let me wear a Burqa!"
On a side note, I stopped one of those hanging pants guys one day at the store parking lot, and asked him how the hell he keeps his pants from falling down the rest of the way because even with a belt, I have to keep hitching my pants up. He tried to tell me he walks with his knees spread, but I think he sews the pants to the boxer shorts. I tried walking with my knees spread and still ended up with my pants around my ankles. And my stepdaughter about had a stroke laughing.
I have plenty of long dresses and bulky winter clothes I could hide weapons under. And since when does dressing like a woman get someone off the hook? There are plenty of weapon-carrying terrorists who are women.
Is the sense of segregation an actual problem of the clothing, or a problem of perception because we want to keep our society the same way and don't welcome changes? If something can be seen as a norm in one place, but not the next, who really has the problem? Is it the clothing or does society need to adjust? Just like we can't blame religion for the decisions people make, it seems equally as silly to blame the article of clothing for the thoughts and reactions people have.
Maybe it doesn't bother me much because of where we live. It's completely common to see people completely covered because of the cold. With nothing but their eyes exposed (and sometimes not even that). But in our case it is a practical, functional necessity and not something most would do if they moved to Florida or something.
I'm mostly just thinking aloud. I don't necessarily completely disagree with it. I really don't know how I feel about it. Most people in my state seem to integrate pretty well. They keep their culture and beliefs, but part of their refugee and/or immigration status is to take classes and work with people to help integrate them. Most of them give up the burqa due to that process and being free of the oppression that they left.
Cultural change must come from the inside. As soon as an 'outsider' tries to tell someone what they should wear and why...more problems come into play. More than anything, I hope the full veil woman get empowered and call for change....but not the rest of us force it on the whole group. That wouldn't be real change for the womens' sake....just more fear tactics. And the women will pay the price in the relationship.
The people here walking into churches, movie theaters, schools, and shooting up the place, aren't the least bit worried about their face being covered.
I think it sets a bad precedent and feel this is something that could go away on its own within a family's generation or maybe two.
I would feel like something was off with somebody walking around in a Nixon mask but I don't think we should ban masks in public and that's the next logical step if we allow this line to be crossed. What about the mall Santa? Or Hallowe'en?
They are next on the chopping block.
I'm not saying anyone should be somewhere like a bank or an airport wearing a burka but walking down the street?
This is just fighting fear with fear in my opinion. As these women are integrated into a freer society they may decide to shed their shackles and perhaps not but the choice is ultimately theirs in Canada and I hope it stays that way.
This. It could be a security issue. Seriously. You could hide a machine gun under there, to say nothing of body-bombs. Men could wear them, and carry out an attack.
Yes, just like with trench coats.
In the end, I blame what's going on in secret within the governments. That is what creates conversations like these...the unrest - unsettled - apprehensive way of life.
As others pointed out, this hasn't happened yet. Anytime we are buying into unfounded fears we should consider whether or not we are playing into someone's hands.
Apparently people can legally buy full body armour to go with their 100 round magazines, on the Internet in the USA. Seems like a bigger problem.
But, in essence, iss is saying they're coming for 'us' - so, it pumps up the volume further on the fear shadow that 911 flared up on the world - not just the US. I think it's all part and parcel of the culture of fear that's being invented.
They do buy armor. One of the rest mass shooters was wearing at least a vest. Can't remember which one anymore.
After Columbine I seem to remember there were businesses that stopped selling trench coats because consumers were demanding it. They quietly came back and haven't been an issue since. Where does it stop, as far as making laws to try to keep people from doing something? They always find a way. Giving up our personal freedoms doesn't keep us safe.
Many of us in winter climates have jackets that are multiple jackets that zip together. If I take the inner liner out, the outer shell is really roomy. I could easily wear a bomb or carry a gun. Heck I could carry a gun in my mittens, lol. In my jacket pocket. People carry giant purses, diaper bags, backpacks, all over the place. The Boston bombers used kitchen equipment and backpacks. Banning them would have no effect.
Maybe we should all be nudists by law. Then only the very bravest would be able to conceal carry and we'd have plenty of warning before they could access the weapon.
I still say it's for the culture reason. African/Black women wear head covers also...it's just a different wrap style. Out of my Muslim girlfriends who cover, several vary in exactly how much they cover. I don't ask and meddle...they know their reasons for stuff. Hair is a very sensitive subject for many groups of people....for many, many reasons. The decision to cover/not cover this 'hair' should be handled within the group.
Sorry wealthy white girls..no more 15 pounds of weave/extensions. You could hide a weapon in there, and us guys think real is much sexier.
It just always seems to apply to certain people...I dunno...The darker the skin, the more dangerous you could be and heaven forbid you be another religion/belief system.....We passed "When in Rome" a long time ago....the Trail of Tears? The Natives were here first....I think we all know who got greedy and changed the scene...??!
Ok, I'm leaving with my soapbox .... hahaha
No, not "yet". But it did happen during the insurgency in Guatemala; guns were hidden under the long skirts of the Mayan women.
Yeah, idk, but it seems like a matter of time before someone thinks of it. I'm not into legislating people's clothing choices, but the scenario crossed my mind.
Bans only antagonize the minority community, thereby perpetuating more anger toward the perceived oppressors. the result? Extremists have one more excuse.
They must have thought of it and ruled it out for now, in favour of brazenly walking in with guns and bombs. Or blending in. Burqa is not inconspicuous in western countries.
You're confusing reality with a cliche filled action movie. Terrorists don't need to sneak around with guns hidden under a loose robe. It's not like they have to go through some sort of checkpoint and if they did, the handy hiding place would be useless anyway. It's a short leap of logic to saying Muslims aren't allowed to go out in public without papers, etc.
The most effective defense is to enlist the aid of the general Muslim population, not alienate them. People just can't seem to wrap their mind around the fact that most Muslims are patriots and are as horrified at mass murder as we are.