Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Are you authentic? Do you belong to a lineage?
lobster
Crusty Veteran
.jpg/220px-Rhino_from_Nepal_(3080551876).jpg)
As someone taught by a Pratyekabuddha and by HO (His Ordinariness) Shakyamuni, I do not feel any special disconnect from a long line of heretics, ex-orthodoxy and nothing special advocates. I have belonged to a few Buddhist cults just for good measure. The last cult I joined, I was immediately thrown out of for starting ... tsk, tsk ...
The Shakyamuni Buddha was in my opinion responsible for instigating a still relevant expedient lineage. I would not class Buddha Shakyamuni as a horse headed god, incarnation of Vishnu or semi deity. Awake will do.
My lineage is one of the perpetual beginner.
Are you 'authentic'? Do you belong to a lineage?
0
Comments
My teacher has some kind of unbroken lineage. I wouldn't consider myself part of it, as my depth of study isn't there.
But I'm ok with that, because I have a print out of our family tree and it's a nightmare. I can't imagine trying to follow a 2000+ year old lineage tree.
My teacher talks a lot about the connections we form to other beings and teachings and so forth. I think the idea is that actually kind of opening to the lineage kind of blesses you to do something that on your own you could not do. I think this idea is common in the TB and especially perhaps in the Nyingma and Kagyu lineages of TB. But I am not at war with other Buddhists for intellectual purity.
But the idea of a lineage is that the teachings can be passed on. At the same time if we look at some things Buddha said about what he considered wrong teachings a lineage could also be like a long line of blind people each with their arms on the leaders back and shoulders and then that leader in turn is following another blind leader. I believe in the story the rhetoric is used that these people are all blind and leading each other to hell! (or you could just say more suffering).
You've heard me talk about mandalas and this is kind of a main idea of my teacher who we associate and how we have to distinguish between what is awakening and what is not working. Presumably by understanding how mandalas and lineages work well then we can use that in not letting something 'take over' that is really leading us astray.
An example of the idea of a 'blessing' is sometimes found in teachings about what a stupa is and what its role is. Some people would just say oh yeah that's the dogma part of Buddhism. And they see people think that walking around in a circle can lead to 'enlightenment' and when I heard about things like that in Buddhism or 'prayer wheels' I remember as a child reading encyclopedias I immediately (without more investigation) identified that as superstition. But there's actually a lot of intellectual thought about what a stupa means and how it works and I think that is presumption to say it is just superstition without hearing these teachings and trying to perceive the meaning of the 'blessing' of the lineage or the stupa or whatever.
Good post.
Thanks Jeffrey.
The lineage blessing in Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism can be amost palpable. I have certainly felt that.
What is interesting about the blind line dance is it can transmit the teaching without every link in the chain being awake ...
It is similar to the formal enactment of the Holy Life in Theravada. It is a living mandala, not necessarily an individually awake one. Though of course that is the ideal.
No. I used to belong to a temple where lineage was passed on by priests giving the Dharma within the priesthood and the laymen who depend on the priest, once accepted, to receive the way to enlightenment. I left given the temple.
Am I authentic? If I asked The Buddha he'd probably ask me why ask him for my answers.
What do you mean by authentic? Are you comparing that to fake Buddhist?
What is a fake Buddhist?
I am. Consider it part of my heritage. Soon I will be spouting nonsense just to pretend I am authentic. You have been warned.
And now back to the real ...
A great line.
Yes. NewBuddhist lineage...stretches all the way back through @federica to @Linc
No...I'm afraid I'm just one of the copies on the production line ...Nothing special
Am I authentic - Yes, I am authentic me.
Do I have lineage - Which one?
Now where did I put that cocoa?
Cheers!
Proud as I am to be considered responsible for the NB lineage, that possibly-dubious honour must go to @Brian . He's the daddy!
If I am to be considered his daughter, then I am certainly of the distaff side, but very probably on the wrong side of the blanket.
You heard it here first.
As to my own lineage: I come from the worthy long line of Mantovani-Buddhas.
All women.
Strong stuff, we Mantovanis.....
I belong to the lineage of no lineage, which includes all lineages!
"Authentic" and "unbroken lineage" are both -- please excuse the lingo, but I have been down this road before -- horse shit when held up to a little historical and common-sensical research. I can credit the public-relations boost that either or both can confer. Go ahead, believe anything you want. Use whatever support systems float your boat. Float on a wondrous sea of wondrous stories. Yes, it is scrumptious.
But find your practice and practice it.
Never mind the"authentic" feather merchants who may rely (for donations, I imagine) on such things as an "unbroken lineage." Don't let the solemnity beat down the seriousness.
End of rant.
My teacher talks about it on occasion, but not really for a purpose of trying to suggest it makes his teachings ore "authentic" and definitely not for donations. His teachings are for whoever wants to come and donations are purely only if someone desires to give. I get the sense when he talks about it that it is more about retaining culture and his devotion to his root teachers. It seems very important to him, but he is a Vajrayana teacher afterall. I imagine it helps to increase trust, on some level, for some people to know (or just think) that what they are learning can be traced all the way back to Buddha's teachings. But real trust can only develop in a relationship over time, and shouldn't have to be proven with pedigrees.
I assume it also is an attempt to weed out people who are trying to teach their own dharma under Buddhism's label. I don't think it's much of a problem here in the US, but I understand it has been in other areas. Where "teachers" develop a following and really have had no training at all in the dharma but their followers know no different. In the western world, we give our trust to people with degrees and we can easily track and prove almost anything about anyone. Where they went to school, what type of degree, what type of program. We can use that information to tell if someone should be a valid teacher of anything for us, whether medicine, education, counseling, the person cooking our food, etc. But when people come from education systems we do not know and places and teachers we are not familiar with, how do we discern that information? Lineage is one of the only ways to do so that people can easily understand. My teacher has some kind of variety of Buddhist degrees of some sort. What they are and what they mean, I sure as heck don't know, lol. But I can look up information on his root teachers, and their teachers, and know where his teachings come from and knowing they come from well known and well respected teachers does increase confidence, I guess.
Is it important to know that, overall? Everything they teach is just a way to point us into what we already have in us, afterall. But I guess I'm glad to have an idea of where his teachings come from because I need a lot of guidance yet and prefer that I not be guided in the 'wrong' direction (if that is possible even). People looking for answers, looking for peace and comfort-which is alot of what people are looking for when they delve into religious practices-tend to be in a hurry to trust, and sometimes it gets them into big trouble. But perhaps for those types of people lineages and such wouldn't make a difference anyhow.
Yes. I belong to several lineages.
My family is my religion and my family is the whole world.
Tout le Monde
Does kindness have a lineage....
I can't say that I belong to much of an official lineage. There are a few practitioners in my local area, but, nothing official. I kind of like it that way. We are just a group of people who are utilizing these practices to try to me who we are. My main teachers are the books that I read and the wisdom I gain from discussion groups like these.
The Dharma of "Hey, that makes sense" and the Tao of "Well, that really didn't work out so well."
My best guess about me anyway.
Snort. You want to talk heritage? I come from a long line of men and women who managed to survive long enough to have children of their own. My lineage stretches back millions of years. Beat that. Of course, since I never had children and never will, I guess thousands of generations of ancestors are shaking their heads in disapproval at how I let them down.
The world is full of ruins, abandoned temples and holy places where people once strutted around, proud of their long heritage but unable to see they had no future. Leave the obsession with heritage to the historians. No, I don't have Dharma transmission, although I've sat before men who did. The good they did in the world and what I do with my life has nothing to do with who taught our teacher's teacher.
Cinorjer, you've nailed it my friend! How does the world look different after ' dharma transmission' I wonder, the follies of our ego ....
While I agree with the overall sentiment, @Cinorjer I disagree with the notion that who/what came before didn't matter. Who influences us, and how, does matter. How I react when I do particular things is a direct result in some ways of what I have been taught by my teachers. Who were taught by someone else. If my teacher's teacher had never taught him and told him he needed to come here to teach, I perhaps wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. What we learn changes our DNA even. So to say there is no influence from people in the past on our choices today, isn't quite right I don't think. I have been profoundly influenced by various people in my life, whether they wore saffron robes or not. Who they are is, in part, due to those who influenced them. Who we are at this exact moment is a culmination of ALL of those ties and connections.
Well by gosh, I didn't think I'd find an excuse to post this article by Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche (warning: very long but really good) - from Lions Roar: This article blew my socks off - amazing: (Btw, I'm riding the fence on @karasti's v @Cinorjer's take on things)
http://www.lionsroar.com/conquering-fear/
p.s. I realize how long this article is and hence is bound to have something relative to this thread, but uh well, I say it's worth the time.
As the Buddha always advised his pupils to check things out for themselves instead of blindly following somebody else’s teachings, I wonder what he thought about the value and meaning of lineage?
Does somebody know?
If he indeed wanted us to have an open and enquiring mind, shouldn’t we try to learn from as many teachers/books/groups as possible?
No tongue in cheek here:
First, thank you, @fedrica, 'daughter' of @brian, for carrying on the NB line.
[In the history of Buddhism, women have proven to be very strong indeed.]
Now, as for a specific Buddhist lineage, I follow the lineage of the Lotus Sutra through Nichiren as embodied in my practice within the SGI.
Peace to all
The only lineage I definitely belong to is the human one ... although sometimes I wonder about that.
I wonder if Buddha would have envisioned what Buddhism would become, or that it would even "be a thing" like it is. Would he have known about how far it would spread, considering their knowledge of the rest of the world was so limited? What about all the schools? I doubt Buddha had a ton to say on lineage because I doubt he would have known to consider talking about it? Having a lineage doesn't mean following blindly. I've done retreats and meet many teachers, and not a single one advocates blind following of anyone or anything.
@silver There is some amazingly good stuff in Trungpa's Ocean of Dharma series. Not the smaller books, but the 3 set of textbooks based on hinayana, mahayana and vajrayana. The first book alone is wonderful to have while the other 2 go into more definitions and details. They are all based on the collection of his seminars given to students over many years. Awesome. The link you posted (still reading) reminded me very much of the 1st volume of those books so thought I would mention it.
I think that having a lineage is a bit like having a university degree, it only becomes unimportant when you actually have one.
My own lineage is Dzogchen, mostly it doesn't matter, but it is part of who I am.
Hmm, a question I've struggled with. My journey into Buddhism started with an esoteric school of dubious lineage, which being a newbie I didn't realise, once I learnt enough to ask questions I was quickly knocked back with lots of crazy wisdom type persuasion. It's been a lesson to me, and I won't make the mistake again, making my own way with loving kindness, compassion and learning from those with far greater experience. In the UK I've found the Triratna group very honest and welcoming, full of knowledge and without the need to boast of lineage.
Tee Hee.
Apart from the motherload mentioned by @federica (Our Mother Brian, who art NewBuddhist Heaven/Haven)
I feel the dharma clones are a worthy productive lineage from those on the factory floor ...
I'm not yet sure, but if I do then I hope it is to the lineage of the wise.
In my own 40 year practice of meditation, contemplation, introspection, intellectualizing, scholastic empiricism and analysis- No Lineage other than the implicit and intrinsic wisdom of our own Mind. The Buddha Mind. Only this is authentic.
This is the only lineage. It applies to any sentient being possessing mind whether they are AWAKE or not. In my previous life I was a scientist and engineer so I pray my understanding is purely empirical here.
We are complete in every way needing not a hairsbreadth of anything external. Nothing additional. Few will understand this and even fewer will be able to live up to it. I know I can't but I try none-the-less. It is the Dhammapada.
ALL the Sutras, Shastras and commentaries are but simple pointers in which you will find nothing but empty words and half-truths until only AFTER, you no longer need them.
When understanding has YOU- the scripture will read YOU. Until then recite them with vigor and sincerity. They are sacred. After understanding simply resonate with them as you would a fine musical composition. Nothing is consumed. Nothing is created.
Who was Buddha's teacher and what was his lineage? Unless Gautama became a transmutation of God or was an incarnation of God- he could not possibly HAVE had a lineage other than his mundane one. Otherwise he would have been a God and not Buddha.
This is a path. Not a destination. Our path is the VERY same as Buddha's. Our Mind the mind of Buddha.
In Kindness and Peace,
Suiseki