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Donating funds to beggars
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
This discussion was created from comments split from: Is it ethical to give money to beggars?.
Would resident members please refrain from contributing to threads they KNOW to be dug up from the archives, and alert me, to permit me to split comments accordingly?
@ibuk27 was already advised this thread was old, and should open a new one.
The Policy is well-known among resident and established members.
Many thanks.
Would resident members please refrain from contributing to threads they KNOW to be dug up from the archives, and alert me, to permit me to split comments accordingly?
@ibuk27 was already advised this thread was old, and should open a new one.
The Policy is well-known among resident and established members.
Many thanks.
0
Comments
Great discussion, touching a lot of different interesting and valuable points.
I think there is too big of an emphasis on "giving" while the really question is about "helping". One could perhaps draw a distinction between the means and the end. I think everyone will agree that the end is to "help with compassion and without judgment". Giving can happen to be, contingently, the means. But sometimes, giving can become indulging or even damaging. For example, co-dependent relationships (e.g. with an alcoholic, drug addict or emotionally dependent relative) are all about why giving too much or indulging can enable toxic relationships.
When people approach me in the streets I always stop and listen to them wholeheartedly. Sometimes I give something, other times I just listen and say no (which is difficult for me, since I am a diagnosed “people-pleaser”). My rule of thumb now is this: when I’m convinced that “giving” does not equal “helping”, I don’t give anything (this is completely subjective, and I think there is no other way to see it). Then, I ask myself in what other way can I help this person, since I presume this person came to me because he or she needs help.
I’ll give you an example from my humble experience: there was once this guy that approached me in the street. He had this contrived story about having come to the city, having lost his wallet, needing some change to buy a ticket back home etc. etc. My gut feeling was telling me he was a drug addict. He was asking me for money, and I said “if you are hungry I’ll buy you something”. So I did. I soon understood this guy was so desperate that the food I bought him was helping him save for more drugs. I say this because, one week later, I passed right through him again, by the same spot. I was now sure his story was clearly a lie. I looked at his eyes: he was completely stoned. He was probably homeless. I went home thinking about him. “Did I really help him by giving him some food?” On one hand, I enabled his addiction, on the other hand I gave him a meal. I guess I was well intentioned at least. But then, I asked myself again: “our paths crossed, how can I help this guy?” This is the part where it’s really up to you how far you want to go. I thought about writing him a letter with an added list of some social cantinas, shelters and associations for drug addicts where he could ask for some help. I could go much farther of course, maybe I could go to him, talk to him, give him more money, giving him shelter etc. etc. I never saw the guy again.
I think there is no objective way of answering these kind of things. Philosophers try to create scientific and objective theories of ethics, but I don’t think that is the right way.
You know, at least I stopped. I listen to him. I gave it some thought. I acted with a genuine intention. I hope I helped him in some kind of way…
@ibuk27 this thread is 3 years old. If there is a topic you'd like to discuss that is more than a year old, it would probably be best to open a new thread.
Poverty and homelessness are timeless.
I used to commute to the Washignton DC area. The communtor train let off where one of a few places homeless people sit asking for money from well-to-do commuters who just ignore them.
Depending on the place and time, Id talk with some of the homeless.. just have a genuine conversation. I live where there is a lot of homeless and many like a good conversation from time to time.
The man in DC told me that he saves all his money in a bank account. It takes a good year to build funds to stay at a motel overnight given he uses money for food and whatever else he wants or needs. If he isnt with his friend for a night over in a completely different area he saves to spend the night at the motel.
We finished our conversation, and then he says "it was good talking to you. Let me do my thing here so I can get some food". He spared money so we both had hot dogs (split-I took care of the difference). I gave him extra money and went on my way.
I dont like just giving a dollar here are there. The expression on their faces is like "what in the world can I do with this?"
A lot of the homeless use their music skills and play guitars at the metro or portable piano. People give them money because of they like the music but none just because.
--
**Is it encouraging them to live in the street? No. A dollar here, five dollars there doesnt help at all in the areas where I live. Its like seeing someone drowning in the middle of the pacific where there is no land and you give the person a life raft.
I have a close friend who is saving up to hire an attorney because to get him out of his situation into safe housing. While others take advantage of the government provided housing when they have full time jobs, mentally and physically able, with family but they have more freedom to do as they will (criminal wise) under government housing then getting a place of their own.
** Do we give money because we feel guilty? I honestly feel most of people in the city do. There is a high descrimination between working, volunteers, and people who cant work. Its like if you dont make money, you are not well to do according to American standards.
I live under government housing, with government funding, and am around people who are in worse situations than I am even though I am medically ill. So, for me to give money is like giving them a raft but to give my time (which I wish I had in return) is like gold.
Realistically, I also give them money as which they need. If I feel comfortable we "also" go get a bite to eat. Thats what I did with one gentleman who invited me to his church. The church provided shelter and food at certain times of the day and I was happy to be with him. It was nice.
**Giving money doesnt decrease the quality of their lives. I just wish people understood that they need more than a dollar or two. The gesture is well meaning as we cant house every person we know needs time and a safe place to get on his or her feet. I mean, a woman I talked with has a full time job and comes hope to live in a tent in the woods.
A lot of homeless dont want money because of pride. A lot of times pride will prevent one from accepting help when needed "that" can decease the qualify of their lives. Giving money hasnt anything to do with it.
**We have a lot of criminals here and many of which I met. Ive been in rehabilitation places where criminals stay to say they were getting a job but some know its not that simple. So, itsa catch 22 with the system thing. It doesnt promote them to come from their ill behavior but reinforces it because staff dont care.
It is also difficult to get a job overnight and expect someone to have an apartment the next day as if its magic or something. There is a lot more to homelessness than needing shelter, food, and money.
There is a lot of physical,. mental, and environmental strain and presures that keep one indoctronated in the system.
Unless someone gives the homeless a good 60,000 check or a good jump start job and a safe place to live, a dollar here and there is nice but regardles sof what they use it for, realistically it goes no where.
Best thing Id think is join a church or temple cause and help the homeless that way. Or something group oriented rather than individual dollars to a man you think is homeless siting on the street.
If begging didn't work -- that is, if it were 100% guaranteed that begging would never result in beggars ever getting any money -- then there would be no begging. Hence, there is begging because it works. That is a necessary and sufficient reason. But as Carlita points out, correctly in my view, begging really does the beggar little or no good; there just isn't enough money. So should we stop giving to beggars? It might seem so, but I'd like to offer a different perspective.
If I decline to give money, I can't stop beggars from getting money. I only can stop them from getting MY money. I might wish they would never get any money by begging. Then we could all move on to looking at better solutions. But I don't have the ability to assure that outcome. Beggars will get money, regardless of what I think or do, so my action or inaction will simply have no impact at all.
So what should we do? What if we start right now with creating the "better" solution?
If I suddenly lost everything, every single thing, and literally could not eat, I might have to beg while I was putting other plans into motion, or else just starve. But what if there were universal food and shelter, free? Not really free, of course, SOMEONE has to pay for it. But free to the user, and widely available as an expected element of society. Traffic lights, public schools, homeless shelters with (minimal) food. It need not be luxurious; in fact it should be quite minimalist. It just needs to be widely and reliably available. Eliminate begging by eliminating the need.
If you find yourself a customer of such a place, you should not enjoy it. If you want any semblance of a life, you'd be highly motivated to get the heck out of there. But if you simply have to be there in order to not die of starvation, then the means should exist to nourish you while you are on your upward journey. There are far too many towns where we take better care of homeless cats than of homeless people.
I don't think the issue warrants too much analysis.
Giving a few dollars away has never left me with not enough. If someone has to ask me for money, giving it to them is my part of the encounter.
How do we make merit if we refuse to help someone who asks us?
If I judge someone to be unworthy of my help, where is my unconditional compassion?
Just give the money, don't think about it.
When I was younger I got this idea of giving money away. Started small. Felt good. But then I felt I had to give more than a bit. So gave a medium amount. Same thing again. Ended up giving a years worth of (pocket-money) savings to an animal NGO.
But then I thought about it and concluded it was just a massive head/ego trip. Giving, fundamentally, to feel good about myself.
These days, sometimes I give, sometimes I don't. Trust your gut. It's no big deal. You're not a saint or a sinner for giving or not giving. Don't overthink it. It's just money.
I've resolved to let the self congratulating come and go as needs be. I'm pretty sure that it's not my entire reason for helping out. Probably part of it tho.
I'm not entirely sure that it matters what is passing thru my mind when it come to giving.
In fact, giving more is likely the skilfull means for overcoming the ego trip aspect of it.
I think I should be giving enough to feel at least some slight discomfort from it.
They key is to not being attached to your money. Once you give it away, it is no longer yours and thus no business what is done with it. So if/when you give, give freely and let go. Don't walk away wondering about what they are going to do with it.
Tee Hee.
Well said @karasti.
I think the ego massaging head trippers are a bunch of useless beggars. Please give generously oh ye hordes of homeless dharma hoarders ...
I used to give money regular to one character, but then I realised he was using the money to buy strong cider, so I stopped.
Example from the dharma: if the killer asks me the direction of the chased, I should lie, for everybody’s sake (karmically speaking).
If I somehow suspect he is a killer, I really shouldn’t give what is being asked for.
If I give to “overcome my ego”, knowing he is a killer, it’s really just about “me” and my ego trip.
I better be worried about what this person is going to do with this thing I’m giving him.
I’m trying to help everyone involved, and helping, in this case, equals to not giving, even according to the dharma.
So assuming there is no evidence that a person is, say a drug addict, and you are trying to decide to give them money. You use your causes and conditions to make those decisions and you know actually nothing about what they are going to do, but decide that you are safe to assume? Why? Obviously if a person is falling down drunk, perhaps giving them money might not be the best idea, as more drinking might kill them. But in a typical situation where you "suspect" but have no way of knowing? You're going to deny someone help? Unless you have an actual reason based in evidence that you giving is going to hurt them, you should help them. Who are we to even say what is helping a person? We can only see from our perception and not theirs. Perhaps they are an alcoholic and are going through severe withdrawl and NOT getting money to get a drink is going to threaten their health or even their life. Perhaps the tv show we watched last night, the Intervetion binge watching we did on the weekend, our alcoholic brother, etc influences what we see greatly and we choose not to help based on our misconceptions rather than is right before us.
Also, I never said not to consider before you give money, time, or whatever. But once you choose to offer it, you have to let it go. It's no longer yours.
I tend to treat people the same. If I can help them in some way, if an opportunity presents, I will. But beyond that, I do not assume I know anything about their lives or reasons for doing what they do and I don't pretend that I do. I don't control people's lives by presuming to know what they will or will not do and make decisions accordingly unless evidence is overwhelming that I KNOW helping may hurt. Not just suspect. Most homeless people just want to be seen as people. My pretending I know what is best for them is silly. I hardly always know what is best for my children, and I live with them.
When it comes to the Dharma we are all beggars
and it's only through the Buddha's Dana we stay afloat....
"Loving words will cost but little
Journeying up the hill of life
But they make the weak and weary
Stronger, braver for the strife
So, as up life's hill we journey
Let us scatter all the way
Kindly words, to be as sunshine
In the dark and cloudy day."
I take it that you didn't realize it when he offered to share...
I never realized how fortunate I was to have no money until I saw the troubles of those who do. I will donate metta to those with money.
If he had, it might have been different.
I find it incredibly patronizing for people to not give money on the grounds "they'll only spend it on drugs or alcohol."
Begging is a job. A really, really terrible job with no benefits. If they are given money, it's theirs, they earned it, and it's none of your f$#&ing business how they spend it.
If you give, give without conditions.
By the way, considering most beggars are also homeless, I thought I'd post this article, which shows that the most cost-effective assistance for homeless people is to ... drum roll ... give them homes (with no strings attached).
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/22/home-free
The lesson here is that putting conditions on aid assumes that you know better than the person being helped what they need ... and that's a very big assumption.
Thanks @Daozen
Most people are not being generous in any real sense. They are trading and being sanctimonious judges. They are the beggars.
They are recieving a sense of justification in the sense of 'being mahayanic and practicing generosity'. Tsk, tsk. Tradesmen. Consider that info a gift. Hopefully my status will be improved by such info giving
I will give only to those I deem worthy? Ah such wise and discriminating awareness [allegedly]. Rightful stinginess? Rightful generosity?
... m m m maybe I should only give Dana to virtuous monks who trade me in teachings?
So what is real generosity? Perhaps it is abundant and open hearted beyond the 'should I give a few coins to beggars syndrome?'
Perhaps it is anonymous, rather than questionable/debatable ...
Perhaps it willingly impoverishes us ...
... and now a message from my sponsors ...
Catherine Ingram, a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society, writes in Passionate Presence: "The Buddha spoke about three kinds of giving: beggarly giving, friendly giving and kingly giving. Beggarly giving is when we give the least of what we have. We give what we don't really need, what we would never miss, what we might have otherwise thrown away. Friendly giving is when we give what we use and like — not our very best — but what we can afford and might appreciate having as a gift ourselves. Kingly giving is of a different order altogether. It is when we give the very best of what we have, when we give more than we keep for ourselves, when we give more than we can afford, when we give with no expectation of reciprocity. In awakened awareness we give because the joy of generosity far exceeds the paltry satisfaction of hoarding or displaying wealth. We give because this very life is a gift itself and wants to be completely used up, wants to spread perfume around everyone it meets."
http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/practices/features/view/15783/the-spiritual-practice-of-generosity
I think it's irresponsible to knowingly subsidise destructive lifestyles. As for professional beggars, it really isn't my responsibility to keep them "in work".
This is why I don't give. To anyone. That way, I don't have the onerous weight on my shoulders, wondering what they're going to do with the money, whether they're really homeless, destitute or 'professionals'.
We have experienced a 'spate' of beggar-cheaters here in the UK, making claims of being disabled veterans, war heroes down on their luck, homeless, penniless and with nothing to their name, only to be exposed as lying frauds on several counts.
One man was seen to climb into a £40k car every night, and experienced a smashed windshiled and slashed tyres.
Look further into it, and you learn that the car - as new, on the sales forum WOULD have been worth £40k, but is now probably a farction of that price, being older, driven and well-used.
The guy also apparently was well known to the local Constabulary, as he also had 'mental issues'.
This is the crying shame of the situation in the UK: Government official establishments set up originally to house and care for those who needed it, were shut down, and the new programme of "Care in the Community", launched.
Which in a nutshell, foisted the responsibility of caring for the homeless and mentslly ill, onto the 'Community', ie, the public in general.
It was a disgusting and unpopular decision, and we are paying for it now, on so many wrong levels.
I lobby my local council and urge them to help those who are sleeping in doorways and begging...
But you know what?
Many bite that hands that try to feed them, reject help, and are hostile to any form of support and assistance. They don't WANT to be taken form their uncomfortable yet familiar state...
So, what then?
^^^ The UK is quite unique.
For example a pair of very visible local homeless street people that I am aware of are in fact a mother and daughter with a local home. The mother is illustrating homelessness and the daughter worried about the danger her mother is exposing herself to is keeping her company. They don't beg and most people are unaware of their status.
This was written many years ago:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jun/27/homelessness.britishidentityandsociety
In Sufism and in Hindu society begging is seen as acceptable and has a different cultural and spiritual context.
@lobsterhttp://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jun/27/homelessness.britishidentityandsociety
In the UK the majority of people who beg aren't actually homeless, so conflating these confuses the issue. I used to do voluntary work in hostels for the homeless, that felt more authentic and useful as a way of helping.
I don't see how a comparison with Hindu culture is helpful here. And Sufism??
A large chunk of the UK prison population are there because of untreated mental health problems.
... here the merit/benefit/virtue is in the charity of the giver. In other cultures the merit/benefit/virtue is in the receiver for allowing others to practice generosity. Some Sufi schools use begging as training in humility.
There are many in the US who want to transition away from social programs and into "let the community step up and care for them" ways. Ugh. Would never work. Here, SO many people who need help are in very rural communities who do not have the money or resources to help. Everything costs money, and when you have more people, you have more money, because that is how our tax money is divided up much of the time. It makes sense on some levels, but it means that community support of these types of issues just doesn't work, at least not here.
@SpinyNorman I'd guess that a huge % of the prison population in the entire western world is a result of untreated mental illness. Especially in the US when so many are in prison for drug or drug-related crimes, as many people involved in the drug world are self-medicating untreated disorders. It's a shameful system, and in the US the prison system is designed, as are most things, to make someone rich. We had a judge a couple years ago who was sentencing people to prison because he was receiving kickbacks from people in the prison system for bringing them more "criminals." And some of them were just kids. The way we manage those who need the most help is just...shameful. I don't have a better word.
Where I live, we don't have a homeless population. We have one guy who lives in the woods, by choice he is a survivalist. Even in the winter in northern MN. He is often in town looking for handouts of some type, and he gets enough. it's interesting to observe on such a level because he is one person in a small town. The church helps him with shelter, gives him blankets and clothing. Others bring him food. Others give him day jobs so he can earn some money. Some just give him money. So in this case, it's easy to see how the community helps him, and no one knows his story knows why he is homeless other than it is something he chose (so he has told others).
The crazy thing is, quite a few locals are always talking about him, about how they don't understand why anyone would give him money, clearly he must be drinking it away, he doesn't deserve it blahblahblah. And those same people turn around and give a whole lot of money to Jesus and the church. Because why not give money to a church that buries scandal after scandal that harmed so many people. yet they determine the church is worthy (so they can get into heaven) but the young man standing on the corner across from the church is not. Hm.
The mind of the passer-by
They'll waste it
They'll spend it on lollies
They'll spend it on whiskey
They'll spend it on heroin
They'll spend it on non-organic, non-fair trade, GMO, processed food
They smell
They make our lovely streets look bad
They deserve to be poor, they're just drug addicts
They should just get a real job
They chose to be homeless
They chose to beg
They are better off without my money
They're not even poor, they're actually rich!
^^^
I think all that when passing McDonalds and Starbucks.
"Dana is Dana"
