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Psychological problems - Resolve, repress, or ignore them?
techie
India Veteran
I remember listening to a zen master's sermon once, and he said something to this effect: psychological problems cannot be solved, or should not be solved. If u try, u will become frustrated. It is better instead to ignore them completely.
Others say never ignore or repress, else they keep coming back.
Both arguments seem valid. We all want to resolve problems, so the second approach seems correct (that ignoring the problem isnt the solution). But the zen master also said these 'problems' are not exactly problems - they are like clouds that come and go in the sky, so no need to treat them as problems and find solutions.
Have u given this much thought?
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Some kinds of problems you can ignore. For example if you are in a bad mood one day you don't necessarily have to fix something and maybe you will feel better in 10 minutes.
My guru would say 'turn towards your experience'.
Depends how severe and debilitating they are. Untreated mental illness or festering arrow wounds are not the basis for any capacity to travel the Middle Way.
There is a more modern idea called spiritual bypassing where you do what the zen master talked about, avoid psychological issues by persuing and accomplishing spiritual goals. Those who talk about bypassing say it's ill advised and that it is what is responsible for situations where seemingly enlightened individuals transgress and fail in very human ways.
The Tibetan teacher Mingyur Rinpoche likes to teach another way to relate to our minds. Normally we either believe everything our minds say so we obey it, or we say "go away" and repress it. Both of those solutions give energy to the emotions and perpetuate them. What he proposes is to make friends with your mental states, accept and allow them without following them, this approach doesn't repress the emotion but lets it be so that it will eventually dissipate on its own.
I think of Buddhist practice as a long-term nourishing of the capacities for responsibility and attention.
Responsibility for what?
Attention to what?
Everything ... large or small, personal or impersonal.
It doesn't happen over night. It's not a matter of improving anything or changing anything. It's just a matter of responsibility and attention.
And the idea that difficulties could be painted over with spiritual eye wash is bad both for the difficulties and for the spiritual effort, from where I sit.
I don't think any situation in life gets better by either repressing it or ignoring it.
We can accept and allow for time to work its magic if no viable solution is in sight at a given moment.
But sooner or later, we'll have to tackle the problem.
The spiritual world is already crammed full with self-appointed enlightened visionaries who in fact are nothing else but psychologically disturbed souls.
What is Dharma practice all about ?
Do you see them as clouds in the sky or not?
If you do, you don't have a problem.
If not, get help.
BTW seeing things as clouds isn't repressing or ignoring them but merely acknowledging them as impermanent, suffering and not self.
As a person prone to times of deep depression, I would say it cannot be solved, repressing it is not an option neither is ignoring it, so I don't know the answer. Medication only works whilst it is being taken and I don't wish to live my life in a half numb state, and since I can go from the darkest place to feeling fine within a couple of days don't want miss out on the happy times. Repression only works to the degree that I can convince others I am fine. Meditation is virtually impossible on a very bad day, but does help a great deal most of the time, and buddhist teaching (particularly the 4NT) help me understand and cope with darkness.
It was said that great masters comes in many form. Many master in the past vary in their teaching approach simply because every man is unique and their uniqueness serves as not only as their strength but as well as highlights the experience of the student depending on the student. These Differences in teachings, in some cases are not to be taken literally but simply to make a point,
Ex.
A student was asking his master some questions. A master then told the student to fill the tea cup with tea, when the cup was almost filled the master asked the student to continue pouring it. The student was baffled by the action. After a while the, master then said. "Like this cup, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."
Letting go is needed to fully understand what needs to be done( if theres any). that way one can see exactly what to do or not do at all.
Like what Buddha said, "“No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.”
“If the problem can be solved why worry? If the problem cannot be solved worrying will do you no good.”
― Śāntideva
Samsara is one big psychological problem .....should one just ignore it ?
From what I gather, an emotion is energy in motion and the more one tries to resist ( the flow/motion) the more it will persist, until the build up of energy can complete the motion ...well this for the most part, is how "I" see things flow...
>
True...Our clinging & grasping mind has a tendency to latch onto the irrelevant (make something out of nothing-our habitual behaviour pattern), by treating it as relevant
Well yes & no
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is to behold the mind-The mind is the root from which 'all' things grow-If one can understand the mind-Everything else is included !"
~Bodhidharma~
We reap what we sow and what we sow (more often than not) are more seeds of ignorance and so[w] (pun intended) the cycle continues....
Samsara = Mind turned outwards lost in its projection
Through "Meditation" & "Contemplation" one can observe the energy in motion...giving it space, not food.... ( or depending on the severity of the Psychological problem if required seek professional mental health help and medication if need be... )
Nirvana = Mind turned inwards recognising its true nature
To some extent it can be like a world opens up and at that moment you have a choice to just let it go. Or enter the thoughtworld. Like in meditation you can see for yourself as these thought worlds appear.
Exactly.
If the situation is not severe, with time, practice and understanding we can focus our efforts on our practice.
Again with time and practice difficulties/obstacles arise and we can let them go.
Can we let go of, understand sufficiently, practice adequately with severe pain/suffering/dukkha whether physical or mental? Not so simple ... for example:
People like @Tara1978 are speaking from direct understanding and realistic means, taking responsibility for the situation and finding solutions.
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/depression/depressionexplained/
One wonders if a Zen master has a comprehensive grasp on what entails "psychological problems" in western society? Or perhaps his suggestion accurately encompasses how cognitive therapy allows a psych patient (or Zen student) to "ignore" problems through the individual working collaboratively with the therapist (or teacher) to develop skills (through practice) for testing and modifying beliefs, identifying distorted thinking, relating to others in different ways, and changing behaviors. Who knows?
Well quite. There are problems one takes to a psychologist - childhood abuse, post traumatic stress disorder to name two - and there are problems one takes to a zen master - blockages on the path while meditating for instance. There is some overlap, for example there are reports that mindfulness meditation can cause traumatic memories to resurface, and in those cases I would advise people to seek a therapist.
A good therapist may be able to help resolve emotional issues which will not be handled in a religious approach. The talking therapy that a good psychotherapist applies is not the same kind of guidance that a spiritual teacher comes up with, it comes from an angle of health, wholeness, compassion and healing that is not the same as "progress on the path".
I feel meditation and ignoring and letting go of problems are approaches that work better on the small problems that everyone encounters while meditating, but there will be perhaps 10% of meditators who will need more serious help.
Some time ago there was a video circulating of a Monk (whose name I genuinely forget right now) who advocated Meditation to cure depression. He actually stated that no matter what type of depression it was, or how deeply felt, it could be cured by meditating.
I originally caught the video on another Buddhist website, posted by, of all people, a Moderator.
In my opinion this was a cavalier and totally misguided notion, and I posted as much on thr thread, and furthermore contacted the monk and told him so.
The added problem was that the Monk's English, while good, was not perfect, so it's even possible that some of the information, authoritative reference and guidance he gave, was linguistically imperfect.
There is absolutely no question in my mind that Meditation is of unsurpassed and extraordinary benefit to those who suffer from depression.
Indeed, there is every possibility that over time, the condition can be relieved, alleviated and even eliminated by judicious, steadfast and regular practice.
But the transmission of these instructions, and the unrealistic expectations of a fast-route cure, were at best incorrect and at worst, dangerously misguided.
Depression can be resolved via meditation; but it takes time, preliminary professional care and supervision, and a gradual growth in the person themselves.
It's not a quick-fix cure-all for every type and manner of depression, as this Monk not only implied, but actually stated as fact.
Mindfulness meditation may simply and palliatively provide a tool to live with depression as opposed to or in addition to wiping it out, because after all it isn't untoward to suppose we all live with certain (low to moderate) levels of anxiety and depression as "normal" humans. For those burdened with chronic clinical depression linked to other psychological disorders meditation is just one tool in the arsenal of treatment by talk therapy (group or individual), medications and ECT. Hard to "ignore" psychological problems permanently, but not impossible once treated adequately to see them as clouds dissipating. One must be watchful for storms arising, though. Monastic teachers seem to sweep away concerns about "improvement" and stress practice by instructing to "ignore" or "not trouble with" which is in line with the linquistic flaws @federica mentioned. Seems the intent is probably compassionate but the transmission is skewed.
ECT? Oh my
surely not in this century. I'm lost for words that this can even be mentioned as a humane treatment.
You may be thinking of the "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" variety of ECT, but "it ain't yer grandfather's brand" of ECT anymore and is used for severe depression and bipolar disorder with good effect.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/basics/definition/prc-20014161
It is still used for severe depression cases, sadly. I know several people who have gone that route, and there is resultant memory damage and so on... Not nice.
There was a recent paper in a peer-reviewed magazine which was assessing the combination of running and mindfulness meditation for depression, and found that combined there was a much higher success rate in helping people.
In any case I would advise people to try all of those alternatives before taking the medication, quite a few of them do not perform better than placebo and there are often significant side effects such as increased suicidality for weeks or months when first taking it.
Agreed.
Horrible about memory loss in ECT patients but the alternative (eschewing treatment) can be excruciatingly untenable for the patient and everyone in their lives, also devastatingly leading to suicide.
Certain strains of cannabis with high cannabinoid content are proving efficacious for depression, but not enough study has been done yet.
http://www.unitedpatientsgroup.com/PatientsRoom-Anxiety-Documents
Some people who do ECT are in such bad shape they try it. I had thought of it at one time.
Last time I saw my Psychiatrist he said I was showing no sign of psychosis or depression. I don't take anti-depressants but I still have an anti-psychotic injection every two weeks and the anti-psychotic also has an anti-depressant effect. I'm sure my meditation practice has contributed to my recovery. My community mental health team is very supportive of my meditation practice. Personally I don't try to suppress any thoughts or emotions I just less them rise and pass like anything else.
Outstanding @Lonely_Traveller
Good news
I am so glad you are doing well. Inspiring. Thanks for sharing.
Meditation works for some and not for others. I suspect there is more truth in the Zen master saying than is immediately apparent.
Some forms of depression need to be treated. My father had this untreated form. He passed away early, untreated, depressed. Sometimes the 'spiritual experts' need to have their heads examined ...
Hello everyone! I'm new here and was intrigued by this thread. I am diagnosed with bipolar disorder and PTSD. In my experience, it takes what I would consider a combination of both. There are certain aspects of each mental illness I struggle with that require being dealt with and others that do not so much require to be ignored, but that I shouldn't focus on or dwell on, such as negative thinking/self-talk. If I am in a depressive cycle for instance, it is something that absolutely cannot be ignored, but at the same time, it is healthier for me to not lay on the couch all day with a woe is me attitude. When it comes to the ptsd, I have to handle it by using my coping skills, but it is important that once the episode or event has been handled, I let it go.
I think many mental illnesses are like other health problems in that you try to find the best treatment and test it to see if it works. If you have diabetes you wouldn't try to meditate to solve the problem rather you might try medicine or lifestyle changes. What people sometimes forget about mental illness is that there is like a difference between being sad for a period and having 'major depression'. Sometimes there is something biological and or genetic going on in the brain or the body. Many mental illnesses can benefit from approaches that you might not be able to get from reading scripture, meditating, or interviewing with a guru. I would say that a lot of times you can get help from a sangha because sometimes someone in the sangha has experience with whatever problem you are having sometimes they have it themselves or know about connection to care givers in mental illness recovery.
The experts are not the one who are suffering. If what they advise isn't working, it isn't working and no amount of self persuasion(delusion) is going to change that. We can know this ourself.
Depression/psychosis caused by physical or organic reason needs a medical approach. The right treatment should be applied.
As stated -
Can you see them as clouds in the sky or not?
If you do, you don't have a problem.
If not, get help.
This. SO this.
Welcome
Well said. Not easy what you say. From observing my sister and father ... my sister who may finally be reconstructing her life shows the kind of almost impossible odds that need to be addressed. She needs every support and 'trick' - medical, psychological and spiritual ...
I found this interesting:
http://tricycle.org/magazine/stopping-wind/?utm_source=Tricycle&utm_campaign=b98341c515-Daily_Dharma_April_13_201604_13_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1641abe55e-b98341c515-307236489
Teaser: