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@Kerome said:
My standpoint is more, the Buddhist precepts state not to kill. It is the first precept, presumably the most important. By having a gun in your house or on your person you are significantly increasing the likelihood that you will end up killing, not just an animal, but directly and consciously another human being. And if not you, then you may end up facilitating another person killing in a tragic accident.
If the intention is not to kill, then why own a gun? It seems better to make the straightforward choice not to have anything to do with guns.
We may be peace loving but we have to remember that there are people who are not. We owe it to ourselves and to our loved ones to be able to protect ourselves I if the need arises.
1
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Swaroop said:
We may be peace loving but we have to remember that there are people who are not. We owe it to ourselves and to our loved ones to be able to protect ourselves I if the need arises.
Then why not learn Aikido or Kung Fu or another martial art which enables you to incapacitate an opponent without so much danger of killing him? Even a shot through the arm or leg can hit an artery which may cause them to bleed to death in minutes.
Guns are things specifically created to kill, I think the answer that "I need one to protect myself on the off chance that a dangerous thug may assault us" is too easy. How often has something like that actually happened to you or people you know? Even historically, going back to your parents or grandparents?
If you look at Thich Nhat Hanh's five mindfulness trainings then you see he sets the modern bar for awareness of your surroundings and the implications of your actions considerably higher than just the direct action itself. One could argue if you follow his lead you should be arguing for strict gun control laws, much less owning or carrying a gun yourself.
@Kerome
By your logic a Buddhist nation should not have a standing army, is it? Because an army is only trained to kill.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I think that's a great idea. Set the right example - if it worked for Ghandhi then it can work again. In many parts of the world wars are not common anyway.
I own them because they are family heirlooms that are quite old and were handed down from my great grandfather. They are effectively locked up. I do not hunt at this point in my life, but I could and I would if I needed to.
@Swroop the discussion was never really about gun ownership. It's moreso about the psychology of gun owners.
@federica quite a few of the people shot and killed by cops were not a threat. Many of them were unarmed. That is why I am saying we need reform in our police and how they manage their firearms. A guy in my state was shot and killed while the cops had him laying on the ground. It happens too often. And they are very rarely held responsible.
This thread was supposed to be about empathy and yet mostly demonstrated what empathy is not. Empathy for those who are like you is easy
To reiterate..
The control of our universe through the touch of a finger, whether by waving a god stick or by touching a keyboard, provides a seductive confirmation of our own importance.
I am** not** talking about comparing the worth of one activity over the other**, but whether the giving up of an attachment to one is comparable in difficulty to the giving up of the attachment to the other.
Someone who actually wishes to empathize with someone else's struggles with an attachment to anything, whether you agree with it or not, needs to be able to compare it to what ever attachment we are personally unable to address.
That is usually the attachment that grips us so intently that even admitting to such an attachment makes us uncomfortable.
you know...
The attachment that we can find a thousand ways to explain away why we continue to hang onto it, all the while denying it has any real power over us.
So examine what that attachment is for you, how intrinsically it is entwined within our own identity and then allow for how any real identity struggles for anyone can feel.
Adding guns to protect society from people wielding guns is a fallacy, though a remarkably durable one. At least in the US, the statistics are quite compelling. Homes with guns have higher incidence of gun deaths. Pretty simple. If you want to protect your loved ones, get rid of guns.
I have been in tense situations in my life, but really very few. But I have never been in a situation that would have been improved by adding guns.
@Steve_B how would you get rid of them? Giving or selling them to someone else doesn't fix the problem, and in many cases can make it worse as perhaps the person who buys them will not lock them up nearly as well (or at all) as you do. They are not supposed to be simply throw in the trash, as they are easy for people to confiscate that way as well. Giving them to the cops only means (most of the time) that they get auctioned off to other buyers. So what to do with them all?
The internet, by far, is my worst attachment. I would have no issue giving up my guns. but I think on a regular basis about giving up my computer and I think I'd give up my car before I'd give up my computer. The attachment is huge and has been something I've been working on for quite a long time. Thinking through, taking more time away. I enjoy times when our internet goes out so it is no longer my choice. It makes me wish someone else would just take away the internet from me, LOL. But it is pretty hard to avoid in daily life. It is how the schools, teachers, coaches, and often employers, communicate now. Email, that is. I can't simply check email and be done any more than an alcoholic can have 1 drink and be done. One email leads to an article that then leads to half a day spent really doing nothing. Not sure what the answer will be for me. But yes, I know people who feel the same about their guns and they really mean it when they say you'll have to pry them from their cold, dead hands. It is the same mentality.
But when I think about empathy, I'm not sure where to go with that. It is a choice, on some level, to keep our attachments. Is having empathy for someone who clings so hard to their attachments a helpful thing? Does it help them understand their attachments or transform them? Even just to look at our attachment and compare it to gun ownership and therefore see it from another perspective, it doesn't really get anyone anywhere. Understanding that a gun owner is as attached to their guns does nothing to help me with my attachment and does nothing to help them with their attachment.
"Never bring a knife to a gun fight." The psychology of gun ownership is quite simple, actually, it's about having power. That's why pro-gun people refer to a gun as a tool. A hammer can be used in just as evil a manner as a gun. Same thing with a car. The question is what a person wants that power for. I want to be able to defend what is good and right. The criminal wants an edge in committing crimes. Are there ways to be defensive without being lethal? The answer is that in most situations, probably, but there are always some situations where the choice is out of the intended victim's hands. If in that case, it is going to be about what the intended victim's personal beliefs are.
OK Manjushri ... out with the sword ...
Om A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhih
As Karasti rightly exposes, what is our cutting attachment? I have too many to list but 'avoiding the real issue' would be relevant in this context ...
Perhaps those limbs we are born and die with are a basic set of primary attachments, all else is secondary ...
@Federica, you are correct. The person acting in self-defense will quit when it is no longer necessary to fight. The person acting in retaliation might quit where the law dictates he must, but will try to carry on as long as possible. As a war veteran, I find life to be too valuable to want to end it. Retaliation serves no purpose, whatsoever.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@how said:
This thread was supposed to be about empathy and yet mostly demonstrated what empathy is not. Empathy for those who are like you is easy
To reiterate..
The control of our universe through the touch of a finger, whether by waving a god stick or by touching a keyboard, provides a seductive confirmation of our own importance.
I am** not** talking about comparing the worth of one activity over the other**, but whether the giving up of an attachment to one is comparable in difficulty to the giving up of the attachment to the other.
Someone who actually wishes to empathize with someone else's struggles with an attachment to anything, whether you agree with it or not, needs to be able to compare it to what ever attachment we are personally unable to address.
That is usually the attachment that grips us so intently that even admitting to such an attachment makes us uncomfortable.
you know...
The attachment that we can find a thousand ways to explain away why we continue to hang onto it, all the while denying it has any real power over us.
So examine what that attachment is for you, how intrinsically it is entwined within our own identity and then allow for how any real identity struggles for anyone can feel.
It's hard for me to compare my smoking habit to someone with a trigger finger.
I actually had a crazy experience when I was a senior in high school and me and three friends two females and another guy were looking for this concert or something that was outside the city kind of out in the country but there were communities and things out there. Anyhow it is shocking to remember how things went almost a parents nightmare. Looking for the concert we stopped somehow and if memory recalls some guys were grilling out doors our age and we stopped and talked to them and ate some food with them. The guys were more interested in the girls with us and I was getting bored I guess. I guess the other guy who was on my sports teams stayed with the girls probably because one of them was his girl friend. But from conversation I had heard there was a big party of teens down the street. So I set out to walk to the party. Now I had long hair in high school and I smoked pot. Anyhow on my way a kid pulls up with like this like big truck with like big wheels and stuff and asked where I was going so I said to the party. He said he would give me a ride. And I got in I mean what could go wrong? Any I can't remember the sequencing of the events. I never went into shock but I can't remember if he went off roading all over the place first or after he pulled a gun on me. He pulled a gun on me because he asked me if I wanted to buy marijuana and then I guess got worried I was a police officer I guess like 21 jump street. So he pulled a gun on me. It didn't end with me in hysterics or anything I just told him that I wasn't a cop. And we went like off roading around perhaps and he drove up to the party and drove at the people at the party probably trying to be funny or look cool to the friends. So I got out and I wasn't even mad at the guy I just started to talk to people at the party and of course didn't mention what had happened. Crazy experience though. I can say I have had a gun pulled on me.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Similar to the spirit of the OP lately I've been asking myself how I would feel about Donald Trump and his behavior if his politics were right in line with mine, would I be willing to overlook his narcissism and rudeness and support him for president?
@how said:
So examine what that attachment is for you, how intrinsically it is entwined within our own identity and then allow for how any real identity struggles for anyone can feel.
@David said:
It's hard for me to compare my smoking habit to someone with a trigger finger.
You may be onto something there.
Who am I? What am I like?
[insert characteristics: NSA membership no. number of cigs smoked, colour of hair, favourite skirt, number of claws etc]
We all have a particular manifest sentient identity. The more we empty/examine this ID, the more non-existent/entangled it seems ...
Then one day ... [spoiler alert] form is emptiness .... and ... yes you guessed it ...emptiness is formed.
Comments
We may be peace loving but we have to remember that there are people who are not. We owe it to ourselves and to our loved ones to be able to protect ourselves I if the need arises.
Then why not learn Aikido or Kung Fu or another martial art which enables you to incapacitate an opponent without so much danger of killing him? Even a shot through the arm or leg can hit an artery which may cause them to bleed to death in minutes.
Guns are things specifically created to kill, I think the answer that "I need one to protect myself on the off chance that a dangerous thug may assault us" is too easy. How often has something like that actually happened to you or people you know? Even historically, going back to your parents or grandparents?
If you look at Thich Nhat Hanh's five mindfulness trainings then you see he sets the modern bar for awareness of your surroundings and the implications of your actions considerably higher than just the direct action itself. One could argue if you follow his lead you should be arguing for strict gun control laws, much less owning or carrying a gun yourself.
@Kerome
By your logic a Buddhist nation should not have a standing army, is it? Because an army is only trained to kill.
I think that's a great idea. Set the right example - if it worked for Ghandhi then it can work again. In many parts of the world wars are not common anyway.
@Kerome which world are you talking about?
I own them because they are family heirlooms that are quite old and were handed down from my great grandfather. They are effectively locked up. I do not hunt at this point in my life, but I could and I would if I needed to.
@Swroop the discussion was never really about gun ownership. It's moreso about the psychology of gun owners.
@federica quite a few of the people shot and killed by cops were not a threat. Many of them were unarmed. That is why I am saying we need reform in our police and how they manage their firearms. A guy in my state was shot and killed while the cops had him laying on the ground. It happens too often. And they are very rarely held responsible.
This thread was supposed to be about empathy and yet mostly demonstrated what empathy is not. Empathy for those who are like you is easy
To reiterate..
The control of our universe through the touch of a finger, whether by waving a god stick or by touching a keyboard, provides a seductive confirmation of our own importance.
I am** not** talking about comparing the worth of one activity over the other**, but whether the giving up of an attachment to one is comparable in difficulty to the giving up of the attachment to the other.
Someone who actually wishes to empathize with someone else's struggles with an attachment to anything, whether you agree with it or not, needs to be able to compare it to what ever attachment we are personally unable to address.
That is usually the attachment that grips us so intently that even admitting to such an attachment makes us uncomfortable.
you know...
The attachment that we can find a thousand ways to explain away why we continue to hang onto it, all the while denying it has any real power over us.
So examine what that attachment is for you, how intrinsically it is entwined within our own identity and then allow for how any real identity struggles for anyone can feel.
^^^ Back on track.
Justification of behaviour, I haz it [lobster hangs head in shame]
As far as I am concerned this is an important thread that illustrates the nature of non-confrontation in the spiritual sense.
As we all know the person we know best is ... see if you can guess ...
ourselves
Yes!
That cheeky monkey will not want its gibbering exposed as valueless but decrees itself right, proper and noble. Such vanity!
Virtuous behaviour does not come from justification, polishing or patching, it comes from insight and exposure.
Look hard. Shoot at the mirror? Kill the Buddha?
Kill the monkey demon more like ...
Well said Kerome. Guns are made with one purpose only. Thus to me they must be avoided at all costs.
Adding guns to protect society from people wielding guns is a fallacy, though a remarkably durable one. At least in the US, the statistics are quite compelling. Homes with guns have higher incidence of gun deaths. Pretty simple. If you want to protect your loved ones, get rid of guns.
I have been in tense situations in my life, but really very few. But I have never been in a situation that would have been improved by adding guns.
@Steve_B how would you get rid of them? Giving or selling them to someone else doesn't fix the problem, and in many cases can make it worse as perhaps the person who buys them will not lock them up nearly as well (or at all) as you do. They are not supposed to be simply throw in the trash, as they are easy for people to confiscate that way as well. Giving them to the cops only means (most of the time) that they get auctioned off to other buyers. So what to do with them all?
The internet, by far, is my worst attachment. I would have no issue giving up my guns. but I think on a regular basis about giving up my computer and I think I'd give up my car before I'd give up my computer. The attachment is huge and has been something I've been working on for quite a long time. Thinking through, taking more time away. I enjoy times when our internet goes out so it is no longer my choice. It makes me wish someone else would just take away the internet from me, LOL. But it is pretty hard to avoid in daily life. It is how the schools, teachers, coaches, and often employers, communicate now. Email, that is. I can't simply check email and be done any more than an alcoholic can have 1 drink and be done. One email leads to an article that then leads to half a day spent really doing nothing. Not sure what the answer will be for me. But yes, I know people who feel the same about their guns and they really mean it when they say you'll have to pry them from their cold, dead hands. It is the same mentality.
But when I think about empathy, I'm not sure where to go with that. It is a choice, on some level, to keep our attachments. Is having empathy for someone who clings so hard to their attachments a helpful thing? Does it help them understand their attachments or transform them? Even just to look at our attachment and compare it to gun ownership and therefore see it from another perspective, it doesn't really get anyone anywhere. Understanding that a gun owner is as attached to their guns does nothing to help me with my attachment and does nothing to help them with their attachment.
"Never bring a knife to a gun fight." The psychology of gun ownership is quite simple, actually, it's about having power. That's why pro-gun people refer to a gun as a tool. A hammer can be used in just as evil a manner as a gun. Same thing with a car. The question is what a person wants that power for. I want to be able to defend what is good and right. The criminal wants an edge in committing crimes. Are there ways to be defensive without being lethal? The answer is that in most situations, probably, but there are always some situations where the choice is out of the intended victim's hands. If in that case, it is going to be about what the intended victim's personal beliefs are.
OK Manjushri ... out with the sword ...
Om A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhih
As Karasti rightly exposes, what is our cutting attachment? I have too many to list but 'avoiding the real issue' would be relevant in this context ...
Perhaps those limbs we are born and die with are a basic set of primary attachments, all else is secondary ...
Most of the time self-defense is an excuse for these people to be aggressive.
Not necessarily. One needs to distinguish between 'self-defence' and 'retaliation'.
@Federica, you are correct. The person acting in self-defense will quit when it is no longer necessary to fight. The person acting in retaliation might quit where the law dictates he must, but will try to carry on as long as possible. As a war veteran, I find life to be too valuable to want to end it. Retaliation serves no purpose, whatsoever.
It's hard for me to compare my smoking habit to someone with a trigger finger.
You may be onto something there.
I actually had a crazy experience when I was a senior in high school and me and three friends two females and another guy were looking for this concert or something that was outside the city kind of out in the country but there were communities and things out there. Anyhow it is shocking to remember how things went almost a parents nightmare. Looking for the concert we stopped somehow and if memory recalls some guys were grilling out doors our age and we stopped and talked to them and ate some food with them. The guys were more interested in the girls with us and I was getting bored I guess. I guess the other guy who was on my sports teams stayed with the girls probably because one of them was his girl friend. But from conversation I had heard there was a big party of teens down the street. So I set out to walk to the party. Now I had long hair in high school and I smoked pot. Anyhow on my way a kid pulls up with like this like big truck with like big wheels and stuff and asked where I was going so I said to the party. He said he would give me a ride. And I got in I mean what could go wrong? Any I can't remember the sequencing of the events. I never went into shock but I can't remember if he went off roading all over the place first or after he pulled a gun on me. He pulled a gun on me because he asked me if I wanted to buy marijuana and then I guess got worried I was a police officer I guess like 21 jump street. So he pulled a gun on me. It didn't end with me in hysterics or anything I just told him that I wasn't a cop. And we went like off roading around perhaps and he drove up to the party and drove at the people at the party probably trying to be funny or look cool to the friends. So I got out and I wasn't even mad at the guy I just started to talk to people at the party and of course didn't mention what had happened. Crazy experience though. I can say I have had a gun pulled on me.
Similar to the spirit of the OP lately I've been asking myself how I would feel about Donald Trump and his behavior if his politics were right in line with mine, would I be willing to overlook his narcissism and rudeness and support him for president?
Who am I? What am I like?
[insert characteristics: NSA membership no. number of cigs smoked, colour of hair, favourite skirt, number of claws etc]
We all have a particular manifest sentient identity. The more we empty/examine this ID, the more non-existent/entangled it seems ...
Then one day ... [spoiler alert] form is emptiness .... and ... yes you guessed it ...emptiness is formed.
Shoot!