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The meaning of kamma is unconjecturable
NB1100
Explorer
Hello all,
In the Sutta, Buddha says the result of killing is short life, the result of stealing is poverty. But at the same time Buddha also says the result of kamma is imponderable. I am trying to understand this, does it mean those who love to kill will experience poverty or other result (except short life or other similar effect)? Thanks.
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I think I've heard that you have to be a Buddha yourself to know the karmic reason of each color of a peacocks feather (I believe that was the example in the sutra or writing).
Until then you can understand a few things about karma that may be helpful much much before being a Buddha.
Theres quite a bit about karma effects in different writings. I'm not familiar so much with the sutras but a text I have read that is a lam rim (gradual teaching) fundamental text is called the Jewel Ornament of Liberation and it was written maybe 1000 years ago and I guess you have to realize that the world was different back then with not so much science and earlier technology. But that JOL text says things like that lying will cause you to have bad breath and that telling the truth for many lifetimes will make you have a powerful quality that people will believe what you say. So yeah I am not sure if these are cultural little oddities to ignore or if they are important. Is it important to know what various acts result in? Or more we just need to know why we want to do the right thing?
My understanding is that he's talking about the exact workings out of karma. So like which karmic seeds were the cause for my bike getting stolen and caused me to be late to my job interview.
I believe the Buddha was a very practical natured one, and we all know the odds of what it is if you kill one or more people - that is, the odds of someone coming after you because of you killing someone is easily seen; It's imponderable because of the myriad overlapping aspects of Life. @Jeffrey spoke of the 'karmic reason of each color of a peacocks feather' because of the overlapping iridescence of the peacock's feathers - it made sense to me. The Buddha knew we all want answers and we want to understand things - even if it's impossible.
@NB1100
One way to look at it is
By your intent, what you sow, is what you will eventually reap,
but trying to turn that process into a fortune telling machine is a waste of a practice that would better be applied towards the development of harmlessness, than a figuring out of any particular potential karmic retribution.
Thanks all for the reply.
Are you saying killing can result in poverty rather than short life? Because in the Sutta Buddha always says short life is the result of killing Not stealing. But it's imponderable, right? Does it mean it's possible?
I think the understanding is that we do not know what the result of killing would be to the specifics. If it says it can lead to short life that doesn't rule out poverty. We don't know what the results of negative karmic acts will be and that's one of the reasons not to do them.
In mahayana they sometimes talk about doing bad things like killing for good reasons like say assassinate a dictator. With those situations you might kill the dictator but the problem is that you do not know what the result for yourself will be.
If that's the case then we plant mango seed, we get apple fruit, right?
It's possible to get different mango, because there are many different kinds of mango. But they are still mango, nevertheless. But to say we get apple (poverty) as the result of killing (planting mango), would that be a little bit odd?
If you ask me it's all a bit odd. I don't know if you are right or not about seeds like that.
So your idea is like if I damage someones property then I will have mine damaged, but I wouldn't have a sickness in my body because that would be a different seed. And if my behavior result in someones sickness then I might myself have a sickness to me but I would not have my property damaged.
Ok yeah I don't know.
Do you believe in the seeds idea because we deserve to get done to us that which we did? I never think of karma as a punishment, but rather you get involved in something inherently harmful by its own nature. Like getting involved in a gambling casino beyond 'the middle way' and your mind is greedy and restless and so forth.
I'm thinking the seeds are more like anger, greed, and so forth. So we could kill people for greed but also steal for greed. Or we could steal from someone because we are angry that someone has that wealth or kill them because we are angry.
This makes perfect sense to me.
A traveler came upon an old farmer hoeing in his field beside the road. Eager to rest his feet, the wanderer hailed the countryman, who seemed happy enough to straighten his back and talk for a moment.
"What sort of people live in the next town?" asked the stranger.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer, answering the question with another question.
"They were a bad lot. Troublemakers all, and lazy too. The most selfish people in the world, and not a one of them to be trusted. I'm happy to be leaving the scoundrels."
"Is that so?" replied the old farmer. "Well, I'm afraid that you'll find the same sort in the next town.
Disappointed, the traveler trudged on his way, and the farmer returned to his work.
Some time later another stranger, coming from the same direction, hailed the farmer, and they stopped to talk. "What sort of people live in the next town?" he asked.
"What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer once again.
"They were the best people in the world. Hard working, honest, and friendly. I'm sorry to be leaving them."
"Fear not," said the farmer. "You'll find the same sort in the next town."
Well said @pegembara we are the results of our 'mind actions'.
Doing good tends to produce good karma. Duh! Being a mindless monkey tends to result in mischief for ourselves and others. What a surprise ... or not ... How exactly skill lacking behavour results in dukkha ... the link between cause and effect, is not always apparent ...
I am off to steal a Buddhas poverty, kill his non existent offspring and ponder the results of equanimity ... other useless wondering and wandering always available ...
No, saying stealing results in poverty or killing a short life are general or broad results of karma. I'm talking about specific situations in your life, like a hammer falling on your toe or you winning the lottery. We can't work out the exact previous seeds like because I hit so and so or gave this money to that group at a particular time.
The workings of kamma are imponderable. The only kamma you should be concerned with, is the perpetuation, creation and arising of your own Kamma.
A short life can mean anything. Disease, violence or taking risks. It makes sense that negative actions lead to negative results. The reasons two wrongs don't make a right is simple math. Minus one plus minus one is minus two.
It's more like trying to know exactly where the evolutionary line was drawn to differentiate mangos from apples.
I doubt even Buddhas know for sure as Buddha said it was a waste of time to form conjecture which is to rest on a conclusion.
I do not disagree we can't know the kamma of hammer falling on your toe, etc.. Don't worry about that because the question I asked since the beginning is is it possible for a murderer to experience poverty or other result (Except short life) as the result of his killing?
Is there any possibility? The law of kamma of Buddhism is the law of cause and effect, right? Because of this, that happens.
Even if your seed idea is correct a murderer could experience poverty in this life from seeds (ie stealing) in past lives affecting poverty.
Yes, it's possible. But maybe not in their current lifetime. Maybe not for centuries...
Yes, but it's not linear. The consequence may not be immediate, and it may be undetermined in its severity.
In any case, a murderer might atone for their misdeeds and go on to create such positive Kamma that such negative kamma is wiped out....
Angulimala is a prime example.
That means what you are saying is basically you will reap what you did not sow. Wiped out is different thing though.
Sorry, I misinterpreted the emphasis of your question.
Yes, I do think they say that the result is similar to the cause. But like say in the past you hit someone maybe the result of that isn't someone hitting you but a hammer falling on your toe.
At any rate, these sorts of questions fall into the realm of religious claims so we can't know with much certainty if they are really correct or not. If you like playing in these waters though perhaps you'd be interested in the wheel of sharp weapons, its a listing of lots of karma and their consequences.
http://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/original-texts/sutra-texts/wheel-of-sharp-weapons/wheel-of-sharp-weapons-literal-translation
Well I don't know how you worked that out or came to that conclusion.
I did not either say that or mean it.
How did you arrive at that summary - ?!
Not entirely....
Because you say it's possible for the murderer to experience poverty as a result of his killing.
I did not say the result has to be experienced in this life or not, that is entirely different topic, I guess.
Well, yes, regarding hammer no one knows. That's why I did not try to expand the question. My question is will a murderer experience poverty as a result of his killing? Seems to me, after long discussion, it's not possible. At least to a certain extent.
NB1100 do you always believe scripture? Maybe scripture says something but do you always agree with that scripture?
A practical example of poverty via killing is to get a felony on your record and never be able to get a good job even after getting out of prison. Common sense. Or life in prison is that a wealthy lifestyle?
killing results in short life.
bad temper results in ugliness
generosity results in wealth
intoxication results in stupidity
learning results in intelligence.
the rsults of kamma is not imponderable.
the imponderable part is asking 'now that i have killed my mother when and how will i reap the fruit of my bad karma. ie the exact when and how is imponderable.
if you were at the chernobyl nuclear plant when the meltdown happened, you will get cancer or some othyer illness due to the massive radiation you were exposed to. but exactly when aand how , nobody knows...
The workings of the law of kamma are something like the workings of the law of motion as described by Isaac Newton.
1st Law of Motion (Constant Motion)
Every object in a state of consistent motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force applied to it. This circumstance denotes that every object would naturally be in the state of balance and constant at all times until it being influenced by the external force.
The law of kamma = a consistent speed of action in one direction would yield a consistent speed of reaction from the opposite direction.
2nd Law of Motion (Variable Motion)
It is pertaining to the relationship between an object’s mass, its acceleration, and the applied force. In this law, the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector. For example, if the speed of the car decreases, it is literal to speak of deceleration; mathematically, it is acceleration in the opposite direction to that of motion and vice versa. This circumstance denotes the state of balance and constant in all arising forces at all times.
The law of kamma = an accelerating action in one direction would yield a decelerating reaction from the opposite direction.
3rd Law of Motion
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This circumstance denotes the state of balance and constant in all arising forces at all times.
The conclusion is that when we mention a rising force of something would generate a new equal opposing force (the law of balancing), we are actually referring to a process of action and reaction under a phenomenon of constant motion. But under a phenomenon of variable motion, the law of balancing would orientate in a unique harmonising mechanism as in Newton’s 2nd law of motion.
Naturally, things or happenings do exist in motions that vary in frequencies under the influence of conditional phenomena. Therefore, it is just plain impossible for one to foresee the working result of kamma because every day we are involving ourselves with a combination of different vibrational frequencies or motions. Hence, it is just unimaginable to foresee the timeline for all the dust to settle completely.
Broadly speaking, but with kamma intention is pivotal, so it's not just about what you do, but about __why__ you do it.
Yeah I think the seeds have to do with the 'why' we do something. Greed or anger or pride or envy or ignorance.