Going to a Buddhist center for the first time - could use advice
Captain_America
Explorer
Hi everyone,
I've visited the site a (small) number of times over the last few years, and have had sporadic passing amounts of interest in Buddhism. Well, it's been on my mind for the last week or two, and I'm finally deciding to take a legit plunge into going to a real location to see what it's like.
As far as my knowledge on Buddhism goes, most of it was rather basic, and I'm relearning the bits and pieces of things I knew, like that there are multiple branches, the high levels being Theravada, Mahayana and I think Vajrayana(?). I know Theravada is the most traditional, and Mahayana the opposite.
What I can remember from when I last looked into it seriously is that I believe Theravada was what most suited me, but I can't entirely remember why. I also remember the idea of Zen being less than appealing, but again I can't remember why.
This makes it a bit weird and me somewhat worrisome from the get-go, since I've decided to visit a Zen Buddhist center, as they're the closest to where I live. To be more specific, it's of the White Plum Asanga line, which I believe I read was some sort of hybrid of Soto & Rizai (sp) aspects of Zen. I'll be attending their meditation training tomorrow night after work from 6:30-7pm, after which they'll have three periods of sitting for 30 minutes, and two periods of walking that are like 10 minutes each. I'm told I'll also have an opportunity to meet with the Sensei and ask any questions I may have for him.
If I had to guess at why Zen may have seemed unappealing, based on some of the re-reading and poor memory I've done/got, I believe there was something about the way they do meditation that seemed...bland, odd or crappy. Vague, I know. Sorry. I figured a little detail was better than nothing. I also believe they don't seem to care much, if at all, about...what's the best word...scripture? Writings? Those types of things. But I'm kind of interested in that, as I don't think meditation would be a be-all end-all type solution. I'm probably wrong about much of this, so please set me straight.
So I'm hoping that you fine folks would be able to do a few things to help me out:
Could someone/some of you explain the whole White Plum Asanga thing? I've been able to find out who it was started by, but not much else. I suppose some explanation or at least links to information about the Soto/Rizai thing may be in order as well.
As stated above, I'm going to have an opportunity to chat with the Sensei there, and ask questions. What sort of information should I look for from him? There's so much I want to know, but it feels more like a general thirst for knowledge rather than directed specific ideas.
Any other things you guys/gals think that maybe I should know, do or consider.
Thanks a lot.
Edit: I suppose I could maybe mention who the guy there is. He's Jules Shuzen Harris, and he apparently received transmission from Enkyo Roshi, who received from Bernie Glasserman(or something along those lines) who received them from the OG Taizan Maezumi Roshi, if I've got my facts straight.
Comments
No clue
Think carefully about your questions and word them well. Usually individual meetings tend to be short so you will get the best answers from well thought out questions. I'd ask questions that will help you decide if it is a place you want to return to.
Meditation is mostly kind of bland. It's not entertainment, there is nothing exciting about it. But it changes your life and it becomes much more spectacular in boring fashion when compared to the rollercoaster of thought and emotion that we normally live on. It's glorious, truly, the changes that happen.
It is normal for interest to wax and wane. The key is to stick with your practice (whatever it ends up being) despite the lack of interest in the aspect of study. Over the years I have found I have different times of year that are more contemplative for me and I spend more time reading and studying. Other times I do not. But I always come back to it and pick up where I left off. For me it is far more about learning how to work with life and myself than it is worrying about memorizing or studying.
1: as @karasti
2: as @karasti , with the additional comment that perhaps it would be better for you to also become a little better informed on your above comments, regarding Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Zen.
Mahayana Buddhists are not going to be very enthusiastic about someone who believes that Mahayana is the opposite to Theravada with regard to its tradition... it helps to be a bit more, shall we say..."selective", about terminology....
3: Bland...? What do you want, Tabasco meditation...? "odd or crappy"...? I think it best I just shaddup, right now.....
Sorry, I wrote things in haste (as I'm in the latter part of my work day) and didn't really take the time to consider all my words better.
For what I said about Mahayana being "the opposite", I didn't literally mean that it had completely abandoned things and made its own shit up. Opposite meant to say instead of being more traditional, it's the "opposite" direction and has varying degrees of differences from the oldest.
And for the meditation thing that apparently offended federica, it was another poor choice of words, that was more echoing some comments I had read elsewhere recently from people who I suppose weren't too keen on whatever major differences may or may not exist between Zen & other types. I'm well aware it's not supposed to be some kind of exhilarating experience at an amusement park.
Good for you, @Captain_America: You will learn more by actually going to a center than you ever learned from a book or judicious lecture.
Just relax and see what happens. You don't need to be smart or crazy or bubbling with emotion in order to learn and then practice whatever practice you choose. Will you be "wrong?" Count on it. Will you be "right?" Count on it. Just remember, Buddhism exists for one thing and one thing only: You. Imagine you were going to a movie and insisted on knowing every detail before you'd even taken your seat. That would be silly, right? It's the same with Buddhism.
Relax: You've gotten by up until now without raising the Buddhist flag, so, if you decide it's not for you, it seems a good bet you'll survive.
Pay attention. Take responsibility. And enjoy yourself.
It's easy to get caught up in the bells and whistles of paths that make big promises or faster enlightenment and so on. There are a lot of different types of meditation, to be sure. Some seem to make big promises. Some are much more simple and promise nothing. The truth lies within them all though. And you have to work your way to it just the same no matter which kind of meditation you do. Your obstacles are the same whether you practice zazen or Vipassana, whether you sit lotus or in your easy chair.
Mahayana includes the foundations that Therevada focuses on, but they tend to be intertwined with other things and it's not quite as straight forward and you have to be able to read between the lines. Vajrayana is the same, but more abstract. Theravada is focused on what Buddha taught precisely. Mahayana and Vajrayana include aspects of other cultures with practices and deities that are more ritualistic. Mahayana you are still working with yourself but also with a focus on helping others. Vajrayana is supposed to be a very concentrated practice that is sort of an express lane, lol. But you have the same number of items to check out/deal with but the practices are supposed to help you work through them faster. Zen tends to be more simplistic but i do not know much about it. the foundation of the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are all wound within all traditions though. They are just expressed and taught in different ways to meet the needs to different people. Just my way of explaining it, I'm in no way implying one is better than the other. I am technically a Vajrayana practitioner but am working more with Mahayana concepts currently.
I wouldn't worry too much about your visit to the center. Try to clear your hangups and doubt and expectation. Just go to see what happens and go from there. Be open to receiving what comes. Then you will be more sure about whether it is for you or not.
White Plum Asanga is just a American zen school, in Japanese tradition, from the lineage of Maezumi Roshi. It's one of the schools that pioneered bringing zen to the west back in the late 70s. I've been to a couple of their centers many times going back decades. One of their teachers live here locally. It's a fine zen school with many good teachers!
As to Soto vs Rinzai, it leans more heavily towards the Soto side. Not that it really matters. Zen is zen regardless of the tradition.
@Captain_America needs our help? Ay caramba!
Tell us how well it went. We Therevadins need the inspiration of the zennith super heroes ... visiting dojos, training with kind hearted Roshi ... that sort of thing ... What an adventure. What fun.
I wear a cape, you know.......
@genkaku - Thank you very much for the kind and encouraging words.
@karasti - Thanks for the rundown. I think things will be okay, just an anxious person is all.
@lobster - Haha. Hopefully I'll have something interesting to say about the experience, which I suppose I'll either be doing in 12 or 24 hours (after the thing, or tomorrow morning)
Thanks to everyone in general for your various helpful, encouraging and/or funny words. My only major worry now is my back issues, because, despite only being 24 I've got a bit of a hunchback thing, caused from years of slouching thanks to my not-severe scoliosis. Whenever I try to sit up properly for more than a couple minutes, I get some sharp pains around the middle-ish areas of my back. I'm told a chair is an option, but I'm still upset and angry with myself that I'd ever even have to consider such a thing. And depending on the chair, it might not do the trick either. The most comfortable chairs I use are either cushioned for my back to push into, or conform to my shape well enough.
@Captain_America I am too
the first time I went on a retreat and met the monk who would become my teacher, I was a wreck. I emailed the center so many times asking questions and I was so worried about various things. I had no need. They let you know what is needed and there is no chastising or assuming you need to know something when you are new. There was much patience for my many questions and no one expected me to know what to do, what to say and so on. Just be yourself and try not to worry.
If you tell them you have back problems a chair will be no problem. Lots of people have various issues they need to tend to. I had just had knee surgery and was very worried about getting up and down on the floor, and having to stick my foot out aiming right at my teacher. He laughed when I asked if it was ok to stretch my leg out
I didn't want to be disrespectful of traditions or anything else. As usual, intention is everything 
@Captain_America
I've sat for 40 years in a low, stable, motionless postures.
For the last few years, because of an injury, I've changed to a chair.
I have noticed No appreciable difference to my meditation between the two forms of posture except after extended periods of sitting, I can arise comfortably where as my seat mates wobble and creak.
Update for:
@karasti
@federica
@how
@genkaku
@lobster
@seeker242
So I went last night. It was an interesting experience. Awkward too. When I arrived there was one student and a priest. Priest gave me some rundown on what the evening would entail (though I knew this beforehand), which was a 30 minute sit, followed by a 10 minute walking period mixed with a little awkward slow walk that I couldn't figure out how quick I was supposed to move so I imitated others, and a regular fast walk that weaved about the area around the cushions.
I opted for a chair, which was a simple metal folding chair. Had to double up on cushions because I'm 6'0" and my hips would sit below my knees, which would cause pain I'm told. Once everyone was there, it was like ~4 students, 1 priest, sensei and two women of different ranks that I'm not sure of. One was doing the time keeping. After half remembering/half imitating the process of bowing and such for the beginning of the session, we were told the first round would be facing the wall.
This first round was the best, but that may or may not be saying much. Five minutes into it, my back starts hurting. Minus brief moments where the pain would cease on its own or briefly when changing position a bit, it would gradually get worse. The first round was the best because of the least amount of pain, and most of that 30 minutes went by in what was like 10.
The walking thing was weird, but a relief to my back. As we started the second, I told the priest, who happened to be sitting next to me, that this wasn't working out too well because of the pain. He just told me to do what I needed to to be comfortable.
I was glad I could do what was needed, but what was needed wasn't a possibility. My pain is in these muscles across the spot around the middle of my back. At or a bit below/inside shoulder blade area. Only way to reduce pain is to have something to lean my entire back on. No way that was going to happen.
I dealt with the increasingly excruciating pain and became more and more fidgety. My plan became to leave at the end of the second walking period and apologize.
Partway into the second round, I was asked (after a couple others were) if I wanted to meet with sensei in his little interview room, and did so. Was quickly briefed on protocol of bowing to him and such, and sat down with him. He's a nice guy, and I wasn't sure what to talk about, so I decided to say I liked the place, and would like to come back, but my back was ruining everything.
After half empathizing and half making me look like a little girl by telling me that he had a knee replacement, arthritis and an issue with two discs in his lower back, he said that he no longer feels pain once he's sitting after doing it for 35 years and can understand why it would be difficult for a novice like me. I don't think he quite understood how much it hurt though. I was regularly at a 6 out of 10 on pain, and hit 9 more than a few times.
He suggested I stick it out this evening since there was going to be less than the full final session when I go back out, and maybe to seek some chiropractic help. Also that I should return on Sunday, as they're having a special ceremony to mark the end of Ango and promote someone, and there'd only be one session, which I suppose I could bear to suffer through.
So all in all, my back was a huge, massive, horrible problem, and it hampered the experience greatly. I was in pain for over an hour when I got home before it finally went away.
I need to find out what I can do to strengthen this/these muscle(s) or if I'm just screwed and meditation away from home is never a possibility for me.
You might try, at home, to work with very short sessions on a regular basis to build the strength in your back a little at a time. LIke 5 minutes a couple times a day to start. Obviously, I do not know the degree or exact curvature of your spine but I've read many articles lately that suggest various yoga poses can help with scoliosis. My mom has 2 curves in her back and has found immense relief in yoga and chiropractor work. Might be work reading into to see if it might help you. Developing strength to support your spine may help a lot.
The curvature is quite mild. Most of my problems came as a result of my hunching over throughout my youth. Though this muscle/these muscles really became an issue ever since a bad muscle spasm when I was 15.
@Captain_America
It sounds as if the teacher was caught between having a new student explain about their pain at trying out something different, which is not unusual and the somewhat stoic Japanese culture/linage of his schools approach to pain.
There are other schools which are more flexible at accommodating folks physical limitations and less concerned with everyone looking like they all belong to the same tribe.
Time to experiment a bit on what is physically possible to do and what is not.
What do you envision would support your back adequately for sitting?
I practiced within a Zen school that allowed for whatever that worked.
Back chairs and the corpse pose are possible alternatives or adjuncts.(goggle them).
There is always the concern that the mental and/or emotional hurdles that naturally arise at trying to address a lifetime of conditioned behaviors, become overly fixated on as a means of avoiding the work of the meditation. Most meditation schools will want you to try out the traditional poses first.
If no other possibilities are presented when you honestly report your limitations with those traditional postures then this is where you get to see whether tribal membership is more important to them than suffering's cessation. Then you can decide which of those choices, is right for you.
That is something, that some of us, took years of practice to discern.
They do sell supportive floor meditation chairs with lumbar support. I have seen them online but they are fairly expensive. Perhaps just a back support pillow of the right type to bring with out help?
I was afraid this was going to happen. A 30 minute zen meditation session is a very long time to expect beginners or someone with physical problems to sit zazen. The traditional Japanese Zen schools of Buddhism aren't very accommodating when it comes to the limitation of Western folk, especially the ones half crippled by back and knee injuries by middle age.
In my generic meditation classes, I start people out with 15 minutes and tell them even then if they get cramps or bad pain to quietly get up and stand in the back or walk around for a minute. Meditation does you no good if you're gritting your teeth because your entire mind is focused on your body screaming at you. That's not meditation. It's torture you're inflicting on yourself.
I started off in Korean Zen, but eventually age and injury caught up with me and I switched to a more informal, solitary practice. I'd say start at home, trying for 10 good minutes of meditation followed by some walking meditation, etc. You can do this on your own.
Ay caramba! Buddhists torture @Captain_America - is there no end to their depravity! They are worse than Hydra.
This is not the cessation of dukkha but its induction.
There are two main systems of back strengthening/correction in the spiritual arena: Yoga and qi ong.
Walking meditation is also used for those agonised by agitated/aggravated sitting.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/8899/back-troubles
@how - Yeah. He told me that they're (his zendo) not nearly as strict as the places he had trained when he was still learning. He wants me to be comfortable, just not like, laying in a bed in the middle of the floor comfortable, lol.
What do I think would do the trick? Well, my favorite chair is the office chair in my room, which has a whole thing going on. It has some lumbar support (not -needed- but nice) and even more importantly is deep enough above the lumbar to allow my crappy back to conform comfortably. A straight backed chair is the worst possible thing after no support at all, since I can literally not make my back perfectly straight (I can only force it so much). I almost don't want them to accommodate me, as I practically feel guilty that I even have to mention it in the first place to them, if that makes sense, lol.
@karasti - It's more about the thoracic support, so to speak. Though I guess a cushion with a little lumbar to conform to my back a bit would make sense, so I suppose you're still right. I'm not trying to be pedantic, just want everyone to understand where my pain is.
@Cinorjer - Yeah, and not only was it 30 minutes, but 90 minutes (just with 10 minutes of walking every half hour). I absolutely would've gotten fidgety at some point no matter what, but I'm confident the first hour would've been very doable if not for the pain. Though that might be because of the excitement and getting into the mood that it suspended the boredom that might've arisen. And I'll bet everyone wanted to give me a funny look when I mentioned the back issue. I'm only 24, so it probably just looked like I was being a pansy.
The priest and sensei (once I got the chance to talk to the latter) suggested I could quietly excuse myself to the foray to stand a bit or whatever. While I'm thankful they were so willing to allow it, it's just not practical to me. If I'm in pain after 10 minutes at most, then I'll be getting up nearly 3 times per session, only to let the pain die down some and bring it back as soon as I'm back in the saddle really. It's such a pathetic position for me to even be put in.
Your suggestion for home practice is a good one, and is probably the best thing I could do. Hopefully it'll teach my back to cut the shit out. I haven't done so yet, but I'm going to try and figure out what these muscles are called, and see what I can do about them. I'm really nervous/afraid/upset about it all, and worried that there isn't going to be much I can do about it. I'll either edit this post (if no further replies appear before then) or post again with more information as I come across it.
Thanks again to everyone for their support, advice, etc. I appreciate it.
EDIT Looked at an image of back muscles. Made a crude circle around the general area where I get the pain. There are something like two spots where it's most likely to hurt. I'm at work and it hurts right now from basically light physical work. Right now it's close enough to the surface that I can kind of massage it, but yesterday it felt like it was below a layer of muscles, and even though I could press in that area and feel pain, it was a different kind of pain. It really doesn't make sense to me. I haven't had a doctor look at it in some years, because both times I've done it, they just said it was a spasm and made sure nothing was out of whack in an x-ray. Bullshit. Spasms don't last years....I don't think.
image: http://imgur.com/Qq3o7Ym
Pain in that area is very common, and is referred pain. That is to say, the pain is felt up by the scapula, but the location of the problem is elsewhere. It could even be that your abdominal muscles are lax, and therefore not helping in the support of your spine and back. The muscles of the abdomen are actually called "rectus abdominis" (your '6-pack') and these assist in keeping the back erect, so work on improving posture by strengthening the abdominals, too....
@federica - Thanks for the info. I thought weak abdominals lead to lower back pain though?
Weak abdominals lead to weak lower back. The problem MAY well be with your lower back. The pain is felt in the UPPER back.
Problems in the body cascade from all over. Pain in the back can be a result from problems in the feet, the core, the glutes, all over. It's all one big connected organism. @federica is exactly right. Even if you knock a domino down in the middle of the chain, it still eventually makes the last one fall no matter how far away it is. Body is the same. Strength training of some sort should be a must for everyone, and it doesn't have to be weights. But weight-bearing exercises are so very important for balance.
All Buddhist centres should have comfy chairs and settees if you ask me.
@SpinyNorman why not hammocks?
A hammock would have be very uncomfortable, perhaps like this:
You are confusing Dharma with Dudeism ...
http://dudeism.com/
OM MANI PEME HAMMOCK
... swing low sweet chariot ...
you could be on to something ...
Cool, bro! Better dudeism than masochism though.
Pain is like sex -- all you have to do is say the word and everyone has a point of view, sometimes pretty strong.
My own view is this: Entering into meditation, there is often an unspoken premise that meditation is supposed to make you feel somehow "better." When, instead, things suddenly become "worse," a lot of energy is expended trying to make the "better" assumption work. I distinctly remember wondering (when I was sniffing the early edges of some Hindu meditation practice) why, if I was willing to do this (meditation) for God, God was repaying me with a very painful right leg. I felt as if I had been sucker-punched: I was after joy and peace and contentment -- and being a good boy about it -- and all I got was a screaming right knee!!!!!
Pain -- physical and mental -- is part of anyone's life. Buddhist practice is about anyone's (complete) life. Not to address an aspect of that life is to disregard Buddhism and create some treacly belief system. Does anyone really need another one of those? Maybe so, but I doubt the effectiveness.
How is anyone to address pain? Does reading texts work? Does listening to talks work? Does sounds-good analysis work? There is no one-size-fits-all response. There is only your response. Sit in a chair, lie down on the floor, tough it out, sit full-lotus, wonder about masochism, sniff the edges of insanity ... fall down seven times, get up eight. Somehow, there needs to be a way to address what cannot be escaped ... pain. Naturally, it would be nice if the Tooth Fairy waved and magic wand and the pain was all gone ... right goddamned now! Naturally, it would be nice to find bliss without busting your butt. Yes it would be nice....
Oh well...
Experiment with cushions and chairs and mood music and candles and incense and pain pills and whatever floats your boat. Listen to what others say ... or don't. Bit by bit, the pain that is yours becomes the pain that is yours.
It requires some energy, perhaps, but when it comes to pain, who else could possibly keep your boat afloat?
Best wishes.
And what's wrong with that? Do you meditate to feel worse?
If we are meditating to develop clarity or stillness or whatever, then why make it more difficult by subjecting ourselves to unnecessary physical pain and discomfort? There is plenty of suffering to be found off the cushion, why going looking for it on the cushion too? This vaguely machismo "no pain, no gain" attitude looks to me like cultural baggage.
@SpinyNorman -- Nothing wrong with that at all EXCEPT that going at meditation with any expectation -- better or worse -- is likely to hit a brick wall.
The truth that is too often overlooked in the "no pain, no gain" machismo is that it implies by its very nature "no gain, no pain."
None of this means that anyone is likely to shed expectations overnight. So, go ahead and expect. Grab a barcalounger and see how that works out.
Number 3... There is no utopia, and no place to be found. Our "beliefs" are not important. The more practice, the more it is evident.
@karasti / @federica - I probably should've realized it sooner, but while doing inventory at my job (which includes repetitive movement of lifting stacks of laptops and such), I've noticed it's that sort of physical exertion that puts strain on my upper body that definitely triggers the pain. That's not necessarily to say it can't be two fold, but it's something I figured might be of note. Not that this is a fitness site, lol.
@genkaku - I think I got the point of your comment(s), but I think there's a difference between expecting a little pain from what the sitting entails, and the absurd pain I dealt with from medical related issues. It's also a mentally painful truth that I have to deal with, having issues like this at my age. Last Thursday, I man'd up as best I could, and all I got out of it was more pain, and the small satisfaction that I was able to get through it, despite defeating the point of it all.
When you notice the pain or strain, take a look at what your abdominal muscles are doing at that precise moment. Are they contracted and tightened, or extended and bulging?
When I was running, I injured myself so that a ten minute walk would be painful. It took me two years to recover the walking ability.
Sitting that results in physical injury, is the same as a program in physical fitness that is crippling.
So looking to and after your health is important, otherwise you will end up debilitated. You say as much here:
OK you went. You did what you went for. It was hard.
Bravo 
You may need preparatory practices or other techniques. Standing/walking meditation or prostrations (see link below) perhaps.
Crippling pain, addiction, sensations of [insert mental state] are not run from to somewhere else. Practically every popularisation of meditation emphasise the benefits. A sort of mind gym, enabling a fit mind, rather than the usual mind fit ...
There is some benefit and truth in that. However when we come across the arisings labeled 'fear', 'pain', 'shade of yuk', 'sloth' or similar ... then what?
Still, we sit or practice.
http://www.bodhimeditationvan.org/the-power-of-prostration/
We haz plan!