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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
There is no respect at all for anything or anyone, from the word 'go'. Their simple creed is "if you are not with us, you are against us."
And given the outrage they repeatedly cause worldwide, and the hostility they engender everywhere, they are of the mind-set that Muslim or not, if any group speaks up in any way contrary to their objective, then they are the enemy, be they country, government, group, religion or individual.
We are dealing with religious fascists who want to impose their horrible ideology on the world. History shows that such people cannot be reasoned with. There are no obvious answers here.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Then perhaps what we need first of all is the triumph of reason...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
Then perhaps what we need first of all is the triumph of reason...
Of that, there is no question. We need that most of all.
The problem is not 'what'. The problem is ' how'.
Questions are twofold: who decides what Reason is, and once it has achieved its purpose, what then? Because with Great Reason, comes Great Responsibility.
@federica said:
My aunt lives in Nice and is understandably outraged by the events of last night.
I have been speaking to her on Fb about Hatred not being appeased by hatred... She responded that it's all very well being loving, but they should be open to that.
I replied, if they respond favourably, everybody wins. If they do NOT respond favourably, they lose and we then know to manifest compassion with Wisdom, not Idiot Compassion....
This is such a hard lesson to teach. I'm really coming to the conclusion that nobody can be taught this. Even something as simple and inocuous as "he stole my toy"... just telling someone that hating the other isn't going to get us anywhere.... many would argue that loving someone who hates you teaches better... but isn't hate an addiction? No one stops being addicted to anything overnight. We are always tempted by our addictions, and we are the only ones who can fix that mindset. How do we communicate this idea to the larger population?
@person said:
I really like this. I think it means too that if we are shocked and outraged at something it isn't necessarily a sign that the world is getting worse. It could be that its getting better because maybe something that was considered normal before now shocks us.
I am a great believer in dharma shock troops, special forces Sanghas, descending on areas of potential suffering (starting with our own being) and normalising the ups, downs and sideways ...
Have Dharma, will Practice for Well Being
That actually isn't such a bad idea... Parachute in Buddhist monks instead of the US Army when trouble flares up in a given place.
The difficulty comes when the resident men with guns forget their respect for the monks and nuns and priests who run whatever local institutions there are.
the only problem I can forsee with this is that their robes would fly up over their heads on the way down from the plane. Not so pretty for the folks on the ground!
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2016
@RuddyDuck9 said: This is such a hard lesson to teach. I'm really coming to the conclusion that nobody can be taught this. Even something as simple and inocuous as "he stole my toy"... just telling someone that hating the other isn't going to get us anywhere.... many would argue that loving someone who hates you teaches better... but isn't hate an addiction? No one stops being addicted to anything overnight. We are always tempted by our addictions, and we are the only ones who can fix that mindset. How do we communicate this idea to the larger population?
It CAN be taught, of course it can. I was taught, and I learnt. The big thing is timing. It's a lesson best taught when people need it least. That way, their minds are more open and receptive to suggestion, and they can evaluate the treasure of the lesson with a calm mind...
1
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
This is such a hard lesson to teach. I'm really coming to the conclusion that nobody can be taught this. Even something as simple and inocuous as "he stole my toy"... just telling someone that hating the other isn't going to get us anywhere.... many would argue that loving someone who hates you teaches better... but isn't hate an addiction? No one stops being addicted to anything overnight. We are always tempted by our addictions, and we are the only ones who can fix that mindset. How do we communicate this idea to the larger population?
The problem is, most would see answering hate with love as in a way emotionally dishonest - you are following a pattern you have learnt from somewhere that is unnatural, it's not as it would be if you truly respond from the heart.
For real wisdom, you need to be emotionally honest, and not set up a conflict in a difficult moment by telling people to feel or respond with love when what they truly feel is answering anger and hatred. I think the correct response is to focus on the other person's suffering and anger - if you imagine what the terrorist must have been feeling, the anger, hatred, fear, hopelessness and loneliness that drove him to the attack, perhaps then it is possible to feel some compassion towards him and a general equanimity.
The thing is, each such attack is a tragedy for the attacker as well as the victims. From having been a man of peace they become a terrorist, a suicide bomber, a murderer.
Stay calm, it is what it is at the moment, trying to change crazy people with guns (and huge trucks) and with totaly wrong views. Its not so easy. The world population are now 7,4 billions, more terror will come in the future unfortunatly.
What is the best way to protect us against terrorism?
Its not possible, but if you live on a farm or in a small village its most likely you will not be hit.
Sometimes its ISIS, sometimes its AL Quaida or even Our own goverment operating With a fals flag, like 11 september and now in Turkey.
For real wisdom, you need to be emotionally honest, and not set up a conflict in a difficult moment by telling people to feel or respond with love when what they truly feel is answering anger and hatred. I think the correct response is to focus on the other person's suffering and anger - if you imagine what the terrorist must have been feeling, the anger, hatred, fear, hopelessness and loneliness that drove him to the attack, perhaps then it is possible to feel some compassion towards him and a general equanimity.
It is useful not to be drawn into the endless cycle of suffering/dukkha of perpetuator and victims. Some of us do this and feel such 'idiot empathy' is something more than a temporary stage or self-dukkha pattern. 'Spiritual' or emotional indulgence is not conducive to the Middle Way ...
I would suggest there is a difference between contemplation and empathic indulgence. 'Emotional honesty/reality' for us personally may be very different to the idealised. [spoiler alert] We are human.
It CAN be taught, of course it can. I was taught, and I learnt. The big thing is timing. It's a lesson best taught when people need it least. That way, their minds are more open and receptive to suggestion, and they can evaluate the treasure of the lesson with a calm mind...
Ah ha. We practice metta ahead of the need. We practice calm ahead of lifes turmoil. Sounds like a plan.
Comments
There is no respect at all for anything or anyone, from the word 'go'. Their simple creed is "if you are not with us, you are against us."
And given the outrage they repeatedly cause worldwide, and the hostility they engender everywhere, they are of the mind-set that Muslim or not, if any group speaks up in any way contrary to their objective, then they are the enemy, be they country, government, group, religion or individual.
We are dealing with religious fascists who want to impose their horrible ideology on the world. History shows that such people cannot be reasoned with. There are no obvious answers here.
Then perhaps what we need first of all is the triumph of reason...
Of that, there is no question. We need that most of all.
The problem is not 'what'. The problem is ' how'.
Questions are twofold: who decides what Reason is, and once it has achieved its purpose, what then? Because with Great Reason, comes Great Responsibility.
This is such a hard lesson to teach. I'm really coming to the conclusion that nobody can be taught this. Even something as simple and inocuous as "he stole my toy"... just telling someone that hating the other isn't going to get us anywhere.... many would argue that loving someone who hates you teaches better... but isn't hate an addiction? No one stops being addicted to anything overnight. We are always tempted by our addictions, and we are the only ones who can fix that mindset. How do we communicate this idea to the larger population?
the only problem I can forsee with this is that their robes would fly up over their heads on the way down from the plane. Not so pretty for the folks on the ground!
It CAN be taught, of course it can. I was taught, and I learnt. The big thing is timing. It's a lesson best taught when people need it least. That way, their minds are more open and receptive to suggestion, and they can evaluate the treasure of the lesson with a calm mind...
The problem is, most would see answering hate with love as in a way emotionally dishonest - you are following a pattern you have learnt from somewhere that is unnatural, it's not as it would be if you truly respond from the heart.
For real wisdom, you need to be emotionally honest, and not set up a conflict in a difficult moment by telling people to feel or respond with love when what they truly feel is answering anger and hatred. I think the correct response is to focus on the other person's suffering and anger - if you imagine what the terrorist must have been feeling, the anger, hatred, fear, hopelessness and loneliness that drove him to the attack, perhaps then it is possible to feel some compassion towards him and a general equanimity.
The thing is, each such attack is a tragedy for the attacker as well as the victims. From having been a man of peace they become a terrorist, a suicide bomber, a murderer.
What is the Buddhist plan?
Stay calm, it is what it is at the moment, trying to change crazy people with guns (and huge trucks) and with totaly wrong views. Its not so easy. The world population are now 7,4 billions, more terror will come in the future unfortunatly.
What is the best way to protect us against terrorism?
Its not possible, but if you live on a farm or in a small village its most likely you will not be hit.
Sometimes its ISIS, sometimes its AL Quaida or even Our own goverment operating With a fals flag, like 11 september and now in Turkey.
It is useful not to be drawn into the endless cycle of suffering/dukkha of perpetuator and victims. Some of us do this and feel such 'idiot empathy' is something more than a temporary stage or self-dukkha pattern. 'Spiritual' or emotional indulgence is not conducive to the Middle Way ...
I would suggest there is a difference between contemplation and empathic indulgence. 'Emotional honesty/reality' for us personally may be very different to the idealised. [spoiler alert] We are human.
Ah ha. We practice metta ahead of the need. We practice calm ahead of lifes turmoil. Sounds like a plan.