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Tolerance of crime in the Sangha: idiot compassion?

24

Comments

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Decisions Decisions Decisions Ajahn Brahm

    "When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice !"

    ~William James~

    zenff
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I think if you present your evidence to the police then you have done your duty with respect to the rest of the sangha. You can let them run with it according to the law of the land, and hope to be involved relatively minimally. And you had said the police had looked into it once already.

    There is the possibility that the situation will turn political. Often with prosecutions against sizeable religious communities it can be seen as a feather in the cap of the DA to "reign in a cult", and the effects on a community can be disproportionate. There have been a few cases where communities have fallen apart after such an occurrence. But it's hard to say whether that is for the best or not.

    On the other hand not proceeding with a prosecution might feel like an injustice to you. It is also a question of weighing up the value of the good the sangha does for its members, against the potential bad you feel the negative influences in the community do to them - on the balance are you doing them a service by prosecuting, or are you doing it for yourself?

    federicalobsterESZ123
  • Steve_BSteve_B Veteran Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    In your first post you describe a situation at great length and close by saying any comments are welcome. This is not a forum of police, law, HR, or political professionals, and the comments you have received from this Buddhst community advise you to detach. Your responses imply that you are not asking for advice, you are asking people to agree that you should pursue conflict.

    Questions:
    Prior to this, have you ever been involved in workplace conflict? Would people in this sangha describe you as someone who is involved in conflicts? Since we all learn from life as we gather experiences, has this situation shown you any big-picture perspective adjustments? Can you see any details that if you had handled them differently might make people more accepting of you? What is it about the Security business that draws you? Why? Are you familiar with the techniques of conflict resolution and serial de-escalation?

    I am not suggesting that you answer these questions in words during the time this thread runs its course. In fact, I think doing that now would be specifically counterproductive. I am suggesting that you answer with reflection, and with actions ( or nonactions) over the course of what I hope will be a long and peaceful life.

    Peace.

    Seriously.

    lobsterpossibilitiesRuddyDuck9
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the void Veteran

    I wonder if there is a middle path here. I think detaching yourself is the healthy thing to do here, but as you say corruption continues to affect others. Can you personally leave and detach yourself emotionally from the group but continue the legal actions not in an effort to vindicate yourself and find your way back but as a matter of compassionate action for those still suffering there?

    ESZ123
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016

    @ESZ123 said:
    And as for the majority opinion, the Buddha jumped the Palace wall to challenge the majority view.

    You know what? You didn't come here for advice, because you are rejecting every bit of good advice the people here are telling you. You came to share your pain, and while we can do that, it's not helping you one bit. In fact, constantly picking at it is keeping you from getting on with your life. At this point, you've pushed the boundaries of Right Speech, because you're attempting to get us outraged at these people while knowing only your side of the story.

    Please put this away and get on with your life. If you can't comprehend such a simple step as letting go of your hurt and anger, then I think you really do need a different guru. This one doesn't seem to be getting through.

    If you think a crime has or is being committed, it's your legal obligation to talk to the police about it and take their advice. That is the proper response for a Buddhist or non-Buddhist. I suspect you'll find they also tell you to drop it. We can't give you legal advice here.

    lobsterKundokarastiSwaroop
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    @ESZ123, I don't think anyone here blames you for being rattled etc. by what you're experiencing in this. It's just that we've all been in the same boat in the sense that we've all been 'right' about something, but the more powerful overrode the 'rightness' we had in the situation. That's why many advise/suggest leaving it be and walking away. But of course it's you who has to live with it on the long term. So, I'd say work on figuring out what it is you can live with. Try both on for size - give yourself enough time before making your next move.

    Cinorjerpersonlobsterpossibilities
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited August 2016

    This part of @lobster's Dalai Lama quote jumped out at me...

    "If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process. If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting the teacher’s name," His Holiness said.

    That is a definite 'middle way' between just walking away and prosecuting the sangha. The first may not satisfy your sense of duty or justice, the second may feel unduly harsh. But by publicising your case, including details, names and so on, you can definitely warn those who need to be warned, and set a question mark against the sangha which they will have to work to erase.

    That strikes me as not a bad way to proceed, if you can find a decent platform. Potentially there are a few choices, letters to local newspapers, Facebook, sites like Lions Roar, there might be many who might carry an exposé. And then once you've had your say, let it go once and for all, and move on.

    personCinorjerzenff
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016
    I see Lobster has come up with the basic nugget of a quote. Here is an expanded version of the conversation Western dharma leaders had with the DL, as reported by Stephen Batchelor, who was there. He has a longer essay about the more complete conversation on his website. There are several versions of this around the internet. Batchelor has re-written his own essay at least a couple of times.
    http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/index.php/en/the-future-is-in-our-hands

    What is at stake here is the standing and repute of Buddhism itself, which, for the Dalai Lama, serves not least as a crucial component for our times in creating peace in the world. Even if one has received great personal benefit from a teacher - even if one has taken tantric vows of discipleship with him, the integrity of the Buddhist tradition must take precedence over guarding that teacher's reputation when he is justly accused of ethical misconduct. When there is incontrovertible evidence of wrong-doing, then it is one's responsibility to take action. "Make voice!" he insisted. "Give warning! We no longer tolerate!" The Dalai Lama encouraged us repeatedly to criticise such behaviour openly, even, if all else fails, to "name names in newspapers." As his own example showed, this does not mean that one has to abandon one's spiritual relationship with that teacher. Such actions are, of course, hardly likely to endear one to him. So what to do? The Dalai Lama had a simple answer: "Pack your bags. A teacher can kick out your body, but he cannot kick out your mind."

    (note to Linc: I don't know why my first paragraph came out in bold. )

    ESZ123zenff
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016

    Here's another presentation of the same material, in different words. This is presented in a Q-A format, and is less rambling than Batchelor's essay. Sometimes it's helpful to study a question through different people's eyes, from slightly different perspectives. Since the OP is struggling with this issue, I'm posting a variety of articles on the topic. The excerpt is a direct quote from the DL.
    http://info-buddhism.com/Ethics-in-the-Teacher-Student-Relationship.html

    Historically, although some Buddhist saints have acted with strange modes of ethical conduct, they were fully realized beings and knew what was of long-term benefit to others. But nowadays, such conduct is harmful to the Dharma and must be stopped. Even though one’s realizations may be equal to those of divine beings, one’s behavior must conform to convention. If someone says that since everyone has Buddha mind, any kind of conduct is acceptable, or that teachers do not need to follow ethical precepts, it indicates that they do not correctly understand emptiness or cause and effect.
    [...]
    The practice of tantra is never an excuse for unethical behavior

    silverTara1978ESZ123zenff
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016

    Here's a little more from the above article (info-Buddhism.com), perhaps closer to the OP's concerns, also a quote of the DL::

    • If one presents the teachings clearly, others benefit. But if someone is supposed to propagate the Dharma and their behavior is harmful, it is our responsibility to criticize this with a good motivation. This is constructive criticism, and you do not need to feel uncomfortable doing it. In “The Twenty Verses on the Bodhisattvas’ Vows,” it says that there is no fault in whatever action you engage in with pure motivation. *
    lobsterESZ123
  • KundoKundo Veteran Sydney, Australia Veteran
    edited August 2016

    THE SHORT, BLUNT VERSION

    Is tolerance of the crime Idiot Compassion? - YES

    Is not reporting it foolish? - YES

    As for temporal law and natural law (dhamma), I choose to be guided by the latter in everything.

    ^^ Is that a cop out? - F##k YES

    You've asked for advice and I agree with @Cinorjer - you don't want advice. What do you want? Sympathy, accolades for being persecuted? Again to be blunt, you asked, we answered and you don't like the answer you got. Seems you're at an impasse.

    _ /\ _

    lobsterSwaroop
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Usually I find that when I have a problem and receive conflicting advice, I am letting others give their input into my mind more than I am listening to it myself. Sit and listen. You probably already know deep down what you should do for the given situation. Is the advice others give you really conflicting within you? Or are you worried about whether you can control the results of either option? that is usually where conflicting advice falls for me. The conflict comes in thinking there is a right answer, and being afraid to not make the right decision. When in reality there are myriad results that spin off of each one depending on exact factors, many completely out of your control. Don't worry about the outcome. And do what seems/feels to be the right thing to do.

    If you have reason to believe others will suffer some of the fate you did, and that people who are still there are capable of further physically, emotionally and spiritually abusing the people there, to me there is only one answer to that, and that is to do what you reasonably can to try to ensure people cannot come to more harm. But it is possible what you have done already is what can be reasonably done. I am not saying you should do more. But feel at ease wherever you choose to let go and drop the weight. Because nothing is worse than not being sure, and then finding out later you could have stopped further abuses. I've been there, and it's a horrible place to have to come to terms with yourself and to work through. If you truly feel you have done all you can to be of help, then be done and be ok with it. But if you haven't, do what you can to help until you feel you have exhausted those avenues. If you are to find out later that others were hurt and you didn't do all you felt you could do, that kind of regret is hard to get out from under.

    ESZ123personCinorjer
  • genkakugenkaku Veteran Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    If you are to find out later that others were hurt and you didn't do all you felt you could do, that kind of regret is hard to get out from under.

    My mother, who was not a religious person, often said that if she had to choose between sins of omission and sins of commission, she would probably choose sins of commission. To be wrong is just as wrong no matter what the circumstances or involvement, but being wrong up-close-and-personal has a greater capacity to teach a lesson worth knowing.

    KeromeESZ123personDavid
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @ESZ123
    It would seem that you're a kind and compassionate person, who is struggling with your conscience...ie, a moral dilemma....

    Do what 'you' feel is the right thing to do...and if you don't know what the 'right' thing is...then do nothing....It's as simple as that...

    Any decision that you make will be the right decision, because it comes from a kind heart....

    Besides ....In the karmic scheme of things, (it is a Buddhist forum) right and wrong are relative....

    ESZ123lobsterWalker
  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer

    Clearly nothing excuses unethical behaviour, tantra or otherwise. @Dakini hit the nail on the head for me here: motivation. Discussing this behaviour, free of outrage is my challenge. If I can do that, free of attachment to outcome I feel I will have done well. This thread has gone a long way to helping me understand this. Thank you, everyone, for contributing from the heart.

    ShoshinzenffpersonWalker
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    (NOW we're finally getting somewhere...!)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    @ESZ123 said:
    Clearly nothing excuses unethical behaviour, tantra or otherwise. @Dakini hit the nail on the head for me here: motivation. Discussing this behaviour, free of outrage is my challenge. If I can do that, free of attachment to outcome I feel I will have done well. This thread has gone a long way to helping me understand this. Thank you, everyone, for contributing from the heart.

    Tee Hee. Gold stars and ambrosia for all ... <3
    Independence and objectivity and Heart. We haz plan. o:)

    The important thing is integrity, wisdom and joy.
    Yep joy. To bring compassion and metta into the equation we have to maintain a feeling of well being or transcendence (higher calling/working/mandala). In essence the skills of Tantra are the means or methodology of enactment and empowerment towards a skilful process ...
    Process not outcome as @ESZ123 alludes to ...

    ESZ123
  • possibilitiespossibilities Veteran PNW, WA State Veteran
    edited August 2016

    @Kerome said:
    That strikes me as not a bad way to proceed, if you can find a decent platform. Potentially there are a few choices, letters to local newspapers, Facebook, sites like Lions Roar, there might be many who might carry an exposé. And then once you've had your say, let it go once and for all, and move on.

    @ESZ123, I don't think this will work, sorry. The sangha is emotionally invested in a feeling of safety and wisdom forthcoming from the group and leader - a safety net. You would be seen as the spoiler with an ax to grind. People would not believe you -- and you have said that there are forces at work, successfully undermining your side of the story.

    Look at our current political mess in the US with lies and bigger lies everywhere. Most people have made up their minds long ago. They are Not Listening to the opponent. I read somewhere, once people have come to a conclusion, they seek out info that confirms their position. (You are probably a good example of this, since several of us got the impression that you just want confirmation of your original strategy.)

    It is totally up to you and you will bear the consequence, not us.
    Either way, it is unpleasant - but kicking up the dirt will draw you in even more. IMO you will not succeed in preventing harm to the members of the sangha if they are as commited to the leader as you are.

    I was once at an asram where I noticed a lot of people doing and saying things that were counter to the asram's "message". I pointed it out to a swami, a wise, respected person, and he simply said something like "let them be". i was astounded. I was young and willing to change the world - and he basically said to drop it. I have chewed for years on this and many years later I came to agree. It wasn't my place to direct others -- who wouldn't want to follow. People have to figure this out on their own. You cannot "save" them. (Christian concept)

    So, what is the actual motivation in a case where it is quite clear (to me) that you will not be effective in infuencing the sangha? You will get your point registered publicly somewhere and you will have the satisfaction of having told a truth - as you see it.

    If these people are as brainwashed as it sounds, you have no real access to them. So how much does the truthtelling matter in such a case?

    I think it's a lost cause.

    federicaDairyLamaSteve_B
  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    ^^. 'Let them be', also relates to the 'save the firefly' that wishes to glow? Things are not always as important/big as we seem to feel ... Perspective.

    ShoshinpossibilitiesKerome
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited August 2016

    @possibilities said:

    @Kerome said:
    That strikes me as not a bad way to proceed, if you can find a decent platform. Potentially there are a few choices, letters to local newspapers, Facebook, sites like Lions Roar, there might be many who might carry an exposé. And then once you've had your say, let it go once and for all, and move on.

    It is totally up to you and you will bear the consequence, not us.

    It is true that any action will generate consequences, and the OP would have to account for that in choosing his direction.

    I was once at an asram where I noticed a lot of people doing and saying things that were counter to the asram's "message". I pointed it out to a swami, a wise, respected person, and he simply said something like "let them be". i was astounded. I was young and willing to change the world - and he basically said to drop it. I have chewed for years on this and many years later I came to agree. It wasn't my place to direct others -- who wouldn't want to follow. People have to figure this out on their own. You cannot "save" them. (Christian concept)

    However, it has to be said that in an environment with no opposing voices even those who are ready to hear the message don't stand a chance. There is a famous quote by Edmund Burke which goes "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". The real question is in how to act skilfully.

    So, what is the actual motivation in a case where it is quite clear (to me) that you will not be effective in infuencing the sangha? You will get your point registered publicly somewhere and you will have the satisfaction of having told a truth - as you see it.

    It depends on how many people you can reach, whether you can craft your message in such a way that it is effective, and if you can do so without causing conflict. I'd try to be mindful of the right speech teaching about not creating division in the sangha.

    If these people are as brainwashed as it sounds, you have no real access to them. So how much does the truthtelling matter in such a case?

    I think it's a lost cause.

    Only the OP can judge this, because of his detailed knowledge of the people and community. For us to prejudice him towards it being a lost cause is unskillful, imposing a projection based on very thin knowledge and our previous experience on his current situation.

    person
  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer

    There's one sangha member who firstly felt that the matter should be discussed openly, investigated it, suddenly did a silent 180 in his approach, declined to interview my prime suspect for fear of "causing him legal problems" and then told me that I should be satisfied that I have "unseated a Director" and one of the three bullies and obliged a second to leave his intended longterm employment/retirement at the Centre. Certainly this all happened fairly quietly, and largely on account of my enquiries. Simultaneously, the former PR Chief of a well respected international Human Rights organisation and a very senior sangha member has encouraged me to continue with the Police on account of "systemic" abuses, referring to the issue as "attempted murder".

    So, with respect I feel there has been some relatively skillful harm reduction here and that pursuing it is far from being "a lost cause" accordingly. The difficulty I have in this is that in bringing Police action it may obstruct my Guru's otherwise good works if dealt with unskillfully. I was once told by a criminal lawyer that "the Police are neanderthals". I have known many who are not. All it takes is for one who is to get involved and severely mess things up. I could be called to the stand with State representation at the hands of such a person, unable to afford my own representation.

    On the other hand should a cover up of a culture which tolerates crime come to light there may be some benefit to those who now engage, or would engage that community for enlightened discourse on buddhism. Included in that group are most people who identify with current buddhist discourse, and on that point I'm afraid you will need to trust me. I specifically do not want to get into naming and shaming as I am sure that there's enough painful shame within some these actors already. There seems to me to be no sense in engaging this without a strong foundation of compassion.

    person
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    what is it that you personally, wish to achieve?

  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer

    To effect an honest discussion about a challenging issue to benefit the propogation of the dharma.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    The Dhamma will continue whether you do anything, or not. The Dhamma is not in any danger here.
    The discussion has been honest.
    I'm not talking about your immediate objective, here on this forum.
    I'm talking about the long-term vision you have, and your purpose behind it.

    Your Guru's 'good works' have already been dismantled by his own dishonourable decisions.
    I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to save or why. It may not really be in your remit to do that....

    Kundo
  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer
    edited August 2016

    I was referring to my longterm vision, @federica. As to whether my Guru has made dishonourable decisions, I honestly cannot say. Lastly, rather than "saving" some thing, I feel that to question unethical behaviour and administration, as it affects my path and that of many others, is worthwhile. Such an enquiry would be worthless if I did not attempt to do it with as much compassion and as little ego based anger as I can, per @Dakini 's video of Tsem Tulku Rinpoche and the essence of HH the Dalai Lama's comments noted here. No doubt, that's a tall order!

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I think we're talking round in circles here.
    I am still of the firm belief you need to just quit and let it go. Frankly, I'm exhausted just talking about it. Goodness knows it must be sapping your well-being and energy.
    This could go on for years, and STILL not bring about any concrete positive result.
    I mean, really... in the bigger scheme of things...

    DairyLama
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I think @federica makes a good point... It would be useful to determine a course of action with a clear end-point, where, successful or unsuccessful, you can say you are finished with this episode. It is good to do what is necessary - doing it in an egoless fashion is a good step along the path, and I think a valuable contribution to personal growth and the growth of the sangha you are leaving. But in the long term it may not carry you on a sustainable journey.

    ESZ123
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran

    I think @Cinorjer has a point about clinging to past hurt, and so forth. And I don't know how many years have elapsed since the events in question. But for heaven's sake, the man could have been killed, a murder attempt was made! And several physical assaults. Is he just supposed to roll over and shrug that off, as if it wasn't anything serious?

    I think the people behaving so extremely egregiously need to realize that their actions may well have consequences, namely, that the objects of their abuse may complain to the police. If that happens, and unwanted scrutiny and perhaps negative publicity is aimed at the community, it's not the complainant's fault, it's the perpetrators' responsibility. They chose a course of action, they need to accept the fact there may be negative consequences. Of course, people often don't do that, they try to blame everyone but themselves, but that shouldn't be the concern of a traumatized victim.

    As I think about this, I'm coming to the conclusion that the OP has suffered trauma, which is why he's still struggling with this, and can't simply let it go and walk away. That's a very normal response to trauma. Trauma can't be shrugged or meditated away. Some trauma therapy may be in order. OP, there's a very effective technique that can resolve that quickly and efficiently, called EMDR. Maybe you could Google around and see if you can find a psychologist/practitioner who could help you. Once the emotional charge is gone, you'd be able to see the situation with greater clarity.

    I still think the nature of the events are serious enough to warrant reporting to the police. The OP can later decide if he wants to actually press charges, which is another matter. It would probably get clarified in the course of the discussion with the police, whether or not there's sufficient grounds to press charges. If not, the OP would at least know that he's done his part, done the best he could.

    I agree, though, it's a sticky wicket; not easy to know what to do. No one said life is easy, or that doing the right thing is easy. Best wishes and hugs from all of us. :)

    ESZ123
  • possibilitiespossibilities Veteran PNW, WA State Veteran

    @Dakini, I believe he already reported this to the Police and is wondering about whether to continue with the matter for the sake of the sangha....

    Crimes do go unsolved and the wrong people get convicted and so on. Public "justice" is a very iffy thing and the OP even suggested that he might suffer if the wrong person is in charge of the investigation.

    ESZ123
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited August 2016

    @Dakini said:
    I think @Cinorjer has a point about clinging to past hurt, and so forth. And I don't know how many years have elapsed since the events in question. But for heaven's sake, the man could have been killed, a murder attempt was made! And several physical assaults. Is he just supposed to roll over and shrug that off, as if it wasn't anything serious?

    It appears his choices are limited; but that seems to be the most sensible one of the entire lot. @Dakini, believe me, I totally get it; I understand. I have been in a situation where my well-being was totally compromised, and certain people did certain things to undermine my security, day-to-day life, and general safety. No matter what I might have wanted the outcome to be, the only sane, sensible and logical choice I had, was to walk away. I had to. To continue litigation, conflict and pursue the course of justice would have meant more heartbreak, stress, and danger to my very existence. To walk away was the only choice I had, in the end. Hard as it was, much as it felt as if they had "got away with it", I had to change my Mind-set and abandon hopes of any righteous and Just vindication.
    Yes. Yes, yes, yes, he IS "just supposed to roll over and shrug that off, as if it wasn't anything serious", Because at the end of the day, come 'the reckoning', it will fade, it will pale and it will Pass.

    I think the people behaving so extremely egregiously need to realize that their actions may well have consequences, namely, that the objects of their abuse may complain to the police. If that happens, and unwanted scrutiny and perhaps negative publicity is aimed at the community, it's not the complainant's fault, it's the perpetrators' responsibility.

    Not so. He is acting as a catalyst in an attempt to effect what he perceives is a just and correct outcome. We know very little about this situation, but given that the OP has already made it clear, on more than one occasion, that his life was threatened, a far more reasonable course of actiond for him would be to abandon the situation, and not pursue any course of resolution.

    They chose a course of action, they need to accept the fact there may be negative consequences. Of course, people often don't do that, they try to blame everyone but themselves, but that shouldn't be the concern of a traumatized victim.

    On the contrary, he should be extremely concerned. By continuing action, he will be the victim of the reaped consequences. He is putting himself back in the line of fire. That is HIS decision.

    As I think about this, I'm coming to the conclusion that the OP has suffered trauma, which is why he's still struggling with this, and can't simply let it go and walk away. That's a very normal response to trauma. Trauma can't be shrugged or meditated away. Some trauma therapy may be in order.

    I would suggest this is very sound advice. Rather than pursue this action, the OP needs to perhaps investigate some kind if psychological support.

    OP, there's a very effective technique that can resolve that quickly and efficiently, called EMDR. Maybe you could Google around and see if you can find a psychologist/practitioner who could help you. Once the emotional charge is gone, you'd be able to see the situation with greater clarity.

    I think it will take considerable time for the 'emotional charge' to dissipate. Once that is achieved, it is to be hoped that the OP may well realise the fundamental risk in pursuing a course of action that will (a) perpetuate the crisis, and (b) put his life back in the firing line....

    I still think the nature of the events are serious enough to warrant reporting to the police. The OP can later decide if he wants to actually press charges, which is another matter. It would probably get clarified in the course of the discussion with the police, whether or not there's sufficient grounds to press charges. If not, the OP would at least know that he's done his part, done the best he could.

    Bear in mind that that the OP is not even in the country where this incident originated.
    Becoming embroiled in the matter would probably necessitate his returning to the country in question. That's not cheap. The commitment is not merely psychological, and from what I can gather, it's not merely a question of handing it over for the Police to take action.

    I agree, though, it's a sticky wicket; not easy to know what to do. No one said life is easy, or that doing the right thing is easy. Best wishes and hugs from all of us. :)

    Having experienced at first hand the destructive, sadistic and cruel nature of someone hell-bent on doing whatever it takes to crush another human underfoot, the solution is extremely easy.
    Dealing with it, and accepting it, is the tough part.
    But it can be done.

  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran Veteran

    I was looking at his original post where he said this happened in 2014, he even fled the country after that, and in 2015 the police closed the case. I really think by continuing to treat this as something he needs to continue a crusade on, we're doing him no good. The police already closed the case. Unless he has new evidence, what can he do, and how many years do you advise him to agonize over this? There comes a time when the best advice, let go.

    RuddyDuck9
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Exactly. Which is basically what I said in my very first post in this thread. Seems like we've come full circle....

    Kundo
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016

    @Federica All good points. I've been struggling with the question myself, as the discussion develops. It's not at all an easy choice; it's not a simple black-and-white kind of a thing.

    It's also not clear to me whether what @possibilities said is true; has the OP already taken it to the police? If so, and nothing resulted from it, what more could the OP do? It seems that that avenue has been exhausted, if it's true he reported the problem to the police.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    The OP states he has a dossier of further evidence and that he has been advised by a senior officer to submit it. But if the investigation HAS been closed, it will have to take something pretty compelling for any current officer to see the real point of opening it up again.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @ESZ123 said:
    The question is about natural, not religious law. It concerns the Dharma, not doctrine. In my view, the Dharma applies to everything by definition. There is nothing it cannot neutralise.

    Sadly, in this statement what the OP fails to realise is that - putting it bluntly - the Police don't give diddly-squat for his view on Dhamma and its neutralising effect. The Dhamma, in and of itself, means nothing to a Law Enforcement Body. Their only concern is Statute Law.
    So while it is important for a Buddhist to adhere stringently to the Dhamma and its doctrine, they cannot expect anything, or anyone outside Buddhism to even so much as give it a second glance.
    That's not within their remit.
    It is for the OP to practise, but he cannot expect any results, in line with the Dhamma, from anyone else.

    lobsterkarastiCinorjerKundo
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Cinorjer said:
    I was looking at his original post where he said this happened in 2014, he even fled the country after that, and in 2015 the police closed the case. I really think by continuing to treat this as something he needs to continue a crusade on, we're doing him no good.

    Given that it is a few years ago, and the OP has stated that some things within the sangha have already been rectified, maybe he would be better off to drop it. But I suspect that since it still lives so much with him, and actual action of some sort will be needed to bring closure.

    Cinorjer
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Ah. 'Closure'.
    Nobody, and nothing can give a person closure.
    Closure (like vomit) must come from within. It's an unpleasant process, and it can be painful. But each person must do it for themselves. You can take no action to entice, convince coerce or commit others into giving YOU closure.

    lobsterCinorjer
  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer

    Last summer, the cops were mislead by the Assistant Director and failed to interview the Director. Shoddy Police work led to a false conclusion. In the meantime I have been going through the motions of the organisation's justice process, during which I have collected plenty of indications of a coverup of crime. I was asked to submit receipts for my claim to be compensated for the moving expenses of my 11 ton container away from the Centre, in the same way as I was compensated for moving expenses for that same container to the Centre due to the Director's false pretenses. That rather delayed things but threw up some of the most clear indications, as it happens. I do feel I have information sufficient to open up the investigation again, in short.

    Secondly I have been advised by a senior Police Officer in another jurisdiction of that country to bring it to the Attorney General of the Centre's region explaining that I am unsatisfied with the investigation. Apparently they have an obligation to respond. As that Officer received the country's highest award for meritorious service on his retirement, I reckon his advice is worth considering.

    What this thread has helped me realise is how essential it is for me to do this in a good way, watching for the games of ego, applying the Dharma to every act, every thought. This is tantra, for me. Nothing trumps natural law, by definition. There is no fundamental problem. Our suffering derives from the three poisons: like, dislike, couldn't care less. This is the first teaching the Buddha gave when he rose from under the Bhodi tree. It applies to everything we do in my view, on this forum or elsewhere. There is no seperation.

    If you don't know what to do, certainly one should not "do" anything. In this, I know what to do and thanks to this discussion I know the correct motivation.

    person
  • DakiniDakini Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2016

    Well, OP, it seems that the discussion has helped you to some extent, so the rest is up to you. It also seems that you've received some excellent procedural advice--priceless, really.

    If there are any further developments, consider dropping by from time to time, to let us know. Take care.

    ESZ123Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Sucarita & subhāsiṃsanā.... @ESZ123 and may you continue on the path that leads to 'peace of mind'..... :)

    ESZ123
  • lobsterlobster Veteran Veteran

    On the other hand should a cover up of a culture which tolerates crime come to light there may be some benefit to those who now engage, or would engage that community for enlightened discourse on buddhism. Included in that group are most people who identify with current buddhist discourse, and on that point I'm afraid you will need to trust me.

    Sorry daka, you don't trust our advice. No reason for us to trust you. :p You have been offered, experience, human, psychological, legal and cosmological advice. People are softening to your insistence that your removal services were not paid by the unamed but shameful murder inc.

    I specifically do not want to get into naming and shaming as I am sure that there's enough painful shame within some these actors already. There seems to me to be no sense in engaging this without a strong foundation of compassion.

    Ah compassion, for everyone but our righteous selves ... tsk, tsk ... You are an actor, perhaps even a drama troll. Why should we trust you? I don't trust myself, Buddhas in sheeps clothing or anything I say or think ... O.o

    Something is mighty fishy here ... just me again? :3

    ... and now back to the sympathy vote ...

    Kundo
  • Steve_BSteve_B Veteran Far southwest corner of Indiana, USA Veteran

    Sad.
    You will face other conflicts.
    You're wired for it.

    federicapossibilities
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Well, at least we have something in common, @ESZ123. I'm wired for it, but I've loosened my grip on those strings a bit since boning up on Buddhism. ;)

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Ah, good. We've all said 'Right' and the OP has, in spite of all good sound advice and Dhammic intentions, chosen 'Left'.
    So we leave you. To your own devices.
    Obviously, that 'One Voice' of the Senior Police Officer' has had more single influence on you, than a whole host of Dhamma Practitioners ever could. Because he said what you wanted to hear.
    So basically, all your 'Dharma underpins everything' is bullshit.
    Ah well.

    'Raglio d'asino non giunge al cielo'.
    Hope it all works out for you in the end.

    I somehow doubt it.
    Poke a hornet's nest and the stuff that comes out of a disturbed domain, is terrifying at times. And we need to deal with the aftermath.

    SwaroopCinorjer
  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer
    edited August 2016

    @federica said:
    Obviously, that 'One Voice' of the Senior Police Officer' has had more single influence on you, than a whole host of Dhamma Practitioners ever could. Because he said what you wanted to hear.

    To be fair, there's him, the former PR Chief of AI who said what I did not want to hear in telling me to go to the Police referring to the event as attempted murder and not recklessness, and a significant number of other people in this discussion, in the Sangha and outside of it.

    As for the Sangha's refusal to compensate my moving expenses, this was justified using slander evidenced by documents they supplied. Likewise my illegal dismissal and my Supervisor's failed efforts to close down the Centre and fire the two employees who eventually were fired on account of my efforts alone. So something is fishy for me here too.

    I'm left with, Is it kind, Is it helpful, Is it necessary?

  • ESZ123ESZ123 Explorer Explorer

    Oh wait... HH the Dalai Lama should be added to that list.

This discussion has been closed.