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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Well, I am a nice guy, but have never been that bothered about dating, or women (and certainly not men). I don't pursue. So I am a lifelong batchelor, and have gone largely unnoticed by the opposite sex. And am pretty happy on the whole.
So I don't see why "nice guy" would be the negative stereotype corresponding to "whore", I don't think that's right. Perhaps "Casanova" might be closer, some man-slut who just indiscriminately pursues a lot of women... But although some men would disapprove, to many others he would be someone to be admired and emulated.
The problem is the male of the species is split into some groups with very different attitudes. And women seem to select more or less equally from these groups. It makes me sad to see men getting away with such bad behaviour, repressive on the one hand and macho-stud-like on the other. Neither extreme is a healthy relational pattern.
But sadly many people do not seem to evolve their views much in a lifetime. They absorb certain things when they are young teens and they are insufficiently self-critical later in life, only changing those views in light of life-lessons learned when they are 40 - if then. They just don't seem to develop the degree of mindfulness required to really change their patterns, or the incentive to reach for something wholesome and skilful.
3
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
So @Mingle what exactly is it you want to achieve here? How can we help?
Well I was wondering if anyone knew how to fix such a thing. @Kerome made some really good points.
Thank you... I thought I was relatively clear in my prescription on how to fix it. As far as I am concerned, all these stereotypes - the Madonna, the whore, the maiden, the mother-goddess - are idealised visions of real women. You get attached to those visions because you see something of really high value, something you would like to have or think is really important. In Buddhist terms this is clinging, after greed or desire act on a delusion, it is not true awareness.
The best way to counter it is to meditate on the natural, whole woman. The maiden should be imagined having a good shit, the whore being pure and spiritual, the mother-goddess having a furiously angry swearing session, the Madonna dead and decomposing. Each vision of woman also contains opposite actions and urges, until you arrive at a well-rounded, complete understanding of the real, natural woman.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited September 2016
I don't think imagery helps all that much when he's talking about the personality or temperamental characteristics of women....
There again, as @Dakini pointed out, he's focusing on a specific image and look, because he seems to be considering aspects of the stereotypical attractive girl...
so maybe, while the above exercises are effective, @Mingle may need to address the whole concept of how he views women, both from their physical and mental aspect...
@Mingle, sorry, it may have been mentioned before but how old are you, again...?
Edit ok got it. Around 27...
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I have to say, from the sound of your posts, I would have put you at quite a few years younger.
Well, 'fixing it' is up to you, because first of all, you have to change your own mind-set.
Respect your Mother (I'm talking about your step-mother). Talk to her about your attitudes .
She was young once. She was the age once, of the women you currently have a low opinion of.
Read some literature on the suppression of women and the way men have been active in dominating 50% of the population for millennia, simply because of their gender.
I'm not trying to start a flame war here. Honestly, I'm not.
I'm trying to get you to understand that this attitude you have developed and cultivated about young women you observe, is just part of a bigger picture; it is indicative of a judgemental attitude that subconsciously gives you a sense of entitlement.
Throughout the ages, every organised religion on thet - INCLUDING Buddhism - has held women as being inferior, and subject to domination and abuse - in the widest possible meaning of the term - by men, purely and simply based on the fact that they are women. Nothing more.
Is that logical? Does it sound logical to you that some of the most vehemently misogynistic men on the planet, should hold women in such utter contempt, simply because they are women - even though they may have mothers and sisters whom they purportedly claim to love and respect?
I've met men like this. I've worked with them, engaged with them, talked to them and their attitude has been horrifying.
But you. You recognise this attitude you have, and I think it is based on a somewhat insular and inexperienced PoV.
Please don't think I am belittling or trying to judge you but consider this:
You have demonstrated some pretty 'shallow' ideas and notions about your physical appearance (regarding hair) your attitude to drink, and now this dysfunctional attitude and complex you have, regarding your view of women.
Either you've had a relatively insular upbringing, coupled with some warped influence, or you have formulated opinions based solely on your perceptions without further analysis or research.
How did it start being deeply rooted?
Why do you think you have this point of view, and how do you think it could be modified?
Thanks. I can assure you I don't view women as interior or even oppressed though.
As for my attitude, I think I picked it up when I learned about human hierarchy and also got made to feel weak because I wasn't easily angered. Also that my worth as a male is based on my ability to be aggressive and domineering. There was also this one girl that a friend was seeing who was into being struck during sex and degraded. Really gave me a screwed up view on female sexuality.
I am of course not a aggressive domineering man but I just have this fear that deep down we are wired to be that way. I guess I am afraid of real human nature and I hope it's not as screwed up as I believe it is.
I do love to be wrong though, I'd hate to be the smartest guy in the world (not that there's any danger of that). To think that my ideology might actually be the truth is a scary thought.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 2016
Hmm. In my limited dating experience even I have come across a few girls with some strange needs, I think one needs to accept that very few people come out of childhood entirely undamaged. Finding a way to discover the root causes of these things can be quite difficult because some of the mechanism is on the level of instinct. Encouraging one's mindfulness is a good thing here as in many other cases.
However we are inclined by genetics and upbringing, I don't think that that is the end of it. Humans are unique in that we have a lot of choice, and Buddhism itself is a proof that we can choose to shape our natures.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Mingle said: Thanks. I can assure you I don't view women as interior or even oppressed though.
As for my attitude, I think I picked it up when I learned about human hierarchy and also got made to feel weak because I wasn't easily angered. Also that my worth as a male is based on my ability to be aggressive and domineering.
That's a shame, that somehow you were 'conned' into buying into the stereotypical image of a man. A Bloke.
There was also this one girl that a friend was seeing who was into being struck during sex and degraded. Really gave me a screwed up view on female sexuality.
Well, I'm not sure why...
Because male sexuality is just as "screwed up". There is a massive raft of men who actually plough their hard-earned money into satisfying their fetishes, both physical (sub males/dom females) and emotional. I learnt of a man who must, by his own estimation, spent around £50,000 on buying ladies' stockings and tights. Obsession didn't cover it.
Put that girl into a REAL situation of being violently beaten while raped, and trust me, she wouldn't even register on the pleasure scale.
It's a well-known fact that in the majority of cases, women - and men - who enjoy sado-masochistic role-play during sex, have a safety measure; they like the state of being submissive, yet in control of their submissiveness.
Sex is varied. And it most certainly isn't vanilla or safe. It is as varied in its diversity, as there are people having sex.
You would blanch at the tales of different likes and habits people have. The most 'normal, ordinary and conventional' people have the most extraordinary and bizarre likes and desires.
You could look at any couple in a mall, cafe, restaurant or supermarket, and never even begin to guess at what goes on behind their closed doors.
Incidentally, How did your friend feel about his girlfriend's sexual appetite?
I am of course not a aggressive domineering man but I just have this fear that deep down we are wired to be that way. I guess I am afraid of real human nature and I hope it's not as screwed up as I believe it is.
Ok, stop a minute. Let's say you're walking along an ordinary high street. Saturday morning shopping. Loads of people out and about... couples, families.... In the face of a sudden onslaught from a source of aggression - how many of the men you see, do you suppose would automatically stand, roar like the Hulk, and bare their forearm muscles? Let me tell you. Very few. But very, very few.
To say that men are wired to be aggressive and domineering is doing the majority of men a gross disservice.
This forum is full of men. Would you label them as hard-wired to be domineering and aggressive?
Forget Buddhism, for a moment, and focus on genetic propensities. How many men on here do you suppose are suppressing or controlling strong aggressive domineering temperaments? I'm not talking about standard, normal bursts of anger or frustration. I'm talking of such traits at the same level you are....
Your image of human nature is what is screwed.
I don't deny that the majority of incidents on a broad scale probably DO involve far more men than women.
But look at the incidents. See the rationale behind it. A lot of times, it's alcohol-fuelled, and many times it's mob-mentality. There's safety in numbers. It's much more 'secure' if the crowd you're with is acting the same way. Watch one man on his own behaving like a moron, and even other males are critical.
I do love to be wrong though, I'd hate to be the smartest guy in the world (not that there's any danger of that). To think that my ideology might actually be the truth is a scary thought.
I think you need to greatly broaden your outlook and balance your views. seriously, I do. Read up on other cultures. How many men are there in your family?
And how many direct female relatives do you have? Environmental influence plays a big part in your own perspective.
Why would you extrapolate one experience that one guy shared (and who knows how accurate it was from her point of view rather than his) to all of the female sexuality spectrum? People get off on, and enjoy, some crazy stuff. If you aren't in the bed with her, then it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you and it shouldn't influence your view of women as a whole. What someone likes in the bedroom varies as much as what their favorite meal is. Or their hobbies. Do you judge the whole of womanhood based on the fact that your friend's girlfriend likes to sprinkle rice krispies on her pizza? No? Then why do it with what they like in bed?
Your view is very limited and narrow, and for someone who is in his late 20s, that is really too bad. You need to expand your experience of the world and it's people. Perhaps you could audit or sit in on a human sexuality class at a local college. It would help give you a much better overall view of all of these topics in a place that is more objective and healthy discussion is encouraged. It is up to you to unlearn all of these preconceived ideas. The best way to do so is to expose yourself to people who are different or have different ideas. The people who taught you "how to be a man" were wrong. They picked up those beliefs falsely from their own parents and so on. You don't have to carry them.
@karasti said:
Why would you extrapolate one experience that one guy shared (and who knows how accurate it was from her point of view rather than his) to all of the female sexuality spectrum? People get off on, and enjoy, some crazy stuff. If you aren't in the bed with her, then it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you and it shouldn't influence your view of women as a whole. What someone likes in the bedroom varies as much as what their favorite meal is. Or their hobbies. Do you judge the whole of womanhood based on the fact that your friend's girlfriend likes to sprinkle rice krispies on her pizza? No? Then why do it with what they like in bed?
Your view is very limited and narrow, and for someone who is in his late 20s, that is really too bad. You need to expand your experience of the world and it's people. Perhaps you could audit or sit in on a human sexuality class at a local college. It would help give you a much better overall view of all of these topics in a place that is more objective and healthy discussion is encouraged. It is up to you to unlearn all of these preconceived ideas. The best way to do so is to expose yourself to people who are different or have different ideas. The people who taught you "how to be a man" were wrong. They picked up those beliefs falsely from their own parents and so on. You don't have to carry them.
This is something I will take on board. This is kinda why I got into Buddhism. It's nice exploring a deepness to the human experience that's not just based on our lizard brain.
If it means anything I have found a connection with a certain someone recently who I don't really wanna talk about on here any more yet and it makes me feel complete. Its made me not really care about the idea of sex anymore which actually seems to dominate my mind alot of the time and It's a relief. There is far more fulfilling things out there. This one person has made me feel like I have a different role to play then just being a horny driven ape. The feeing of being a protector and care giver for someone and having them want you around them just because you are you is warm. This Is why I asked about triggers, Is it possible that one person who perhaps you have been shut off from for years can be the source of feeling again?
Men don't have it easy either. Women too can't find the middle ground between having a bad boy type and the good nice guy husband material.
It places men in an impossible position: of being two (or more) things to one woman.
I don't know any women who were ever interested in a so-called "bad boy". Women with healthy self-esteem (and some who have self-esteem issues, as well) avoid bad boys, and look for the good guys. Good guys do NOT finish last. Women seek them out. If they're shy, women will make the first move, and will keep trying until he gets the message. "Nice guy" is derogatory only when someone's faking being nice in order to try to impress a woman.
It sounds like you may have been reading the wrong blogs online, @pegembara. Plenty of women love sweet, kind, down-to-earth guys. Look around you and see how many nice guys are married; probably most of the married men you might see in any random crowd are nice guys, great guys.
I don't know any women who were ever interested in a so-called "bad boy". Women with healthy self-esteem (and some who have self-esteem issues, as well) avoid bad boys, and look for the good guys.
Really? I have met quite a few women (especially younger ones) who appear to hook up with men who are just no good for them with the idea that they can fix them. It usually ends badly.
I have also done it before myself with women i.e. gone out with girls who were clearly bad news.
Jerry Hall got it right when she quoted her mother as saying "to keep a man, you must be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom."
@karasti said: @techie and of course that is a huge part of the problem, that we are seen as something to be "gotten" or somehow possessed. Most men wouldn't want their mothers, grandmothers, or sisters thought of in that way, but too many think it is ok to think about the rest of us that way. Not saying that is how you think, just addressing the comment you made.
Women perpetuate this problem by believing in the male narrative.
I don't know any women who were ever interested in a so-called "bad boy". Women with healthy self-esteem (and some who have self-esteem issues, as well) avoid bad boys, and look for the good guys.
Really? I have met quite a few women (especially younger ones) who appear to hook up with men who are just no good for them with the idea that they can fix them. It usually ends badly.
I have also done it before myself with women i.e. gone out with girls who were clearly bad news.
>
It's usually women with self-esteem issues or who are immature or rebelling against a conservative upbringing, who do that, though. Young women actually warn each other about bad-news types; there was a fair amount of that going on in college. The women around me in college, my friends after college, and my young relatives now look/ed for men who would treat them well and be good, stable partners. It's a bit self-destructive to do otherwise, isn't it? Most people ultimately want to be happy and be appreciated, not mistreated.
I think what one considers a "bad boy" can vary a lot though. When it is well known someone is bad in particular ways, yes, most women will avoid them. I was meaning more subtle ways, or ways not everyone would know about. I'm not talking about criminals or heavy drug users or similar types of people. When I was dating "bad boys" they were more lost souls. People who were good at heart, but had issues that caused them to be shunned by society or popular groups in school and so on. To me, the popular kids had more issues than some of the lesser-desirable ones, really. Just clarifying. My ex turned out to be a bad boy but I had no idea until very far into the relationship when things started coming out in the wash and he started telling me things. He was a sweater-wearing, hair-doing, conservative college guy majoring in psychology. It was quite a while later, several years, before he told me how he used to do lines of coke at the beach.
Comments
Well, I am a nice guy, but have never been that bothered about dating, or women (and certainly not men). I don't pursue. So I am a lifelong batchelor, and have gone largely unnoticed by the opposite sex. And am pretty happy on the whole.
So I don't see why "nice guy" would be the negative stereotype corresponding to "whore", I don't think that's right. Perhaps "Casanova" might be closer, some man-slut who just indiscriminately pursues a lot of women... But although some men would disapprove, to many others he would be someone to be admired and emulated.
The problem is the male of the species is split into some groups with very different attitudes. And women seem to select more or less equally from these groups. It makes me sad to see men getting away with such bad behaviour, repressive on the one hand and macho-stud-like on the other. Neither extreme is a healthy relational pattern.
But sadly many people do not seem to evolve their views much in a lifetime. They absorb certain things when they are young teens and they are insufficiently self-critical later in life, only changing those views in light of life-lessons learned when they are 40 - if then. They just don't seem to develop the degree of mindfulness required to really change their patterns, or the incentive to reach for something wholesome and skilful.
Thank you... I thought I was relatively clear in my prescription on how to fix it. As far as I am concerned, all these stereotypes - the Madonna, the whore, the maiden, the mother-goddess - are idealised visions of real women. You get attached to those visions because you see something of really high value, something you would like to have or think is really important. In Buddhist terms this is clinging, after greed or desire act on a delusion, it is not true awareness.
The best way to counter it is to meditate on the natural, whole woman. The maiden should be imagined having a good shit, the whore being pure and spiritual, the mother-goddess having a furiously angry swearing session, the Madonna dead and decomposing. Each vision of woman also contains opposite actions and urges, until you arrive at a well-rounded, complete understanding of the real, natural woman.
I don't think imagery helps all that much when he's talking about the personality or temperamental characteristics of women....
There again, as @Dakini pointed out, he's focusing on a specific image and look, because he seems to be considering aspects of the stereotypical attractive girl...
so maybe, while the above exercises are effective, @Mingle may need to address the whole concept of how he views women, both from their physical and mental aspect...
@Mingle, sorry, it may have been mentioned before but how old are you, again...?
Edit ok got it. Around 27...
I have to say, from the sound of your posts, I would have put you at quite a few years younger.
@federica said:
Thanks. I can assure you I don't view women as interior or even oppressed though.
As for my attitude, I think I picked it up when I learned about human hierarchy and also got made to feel weak because I wasn't easily angered. Also that my worth as a male is based on my ability to be aggressive and domineering. There was also this one girl that a friend was seeing who was into being struck during sex and degraded. Really gave me a screwed up view on female sexuality.
I am of course not a aggressive domineering man but I just have this fear that deep down we are wired to be that way. I guess I am afraid of real human nature and I hope it's not as screwed up as I believe it is.
I do love to be wrong though, I'd hate to be the smartest guy in the world (not that there's any danger of that). To think that my ideology might actually be the truth is a scary thought.
Hmm. In my limited dating experience even I have come across a few girls with some strange needs, I think one needs to accept that very few people come out of childhood entirely undamaged. Finding a way to discover the root causes of these things can be quite difficult because some of the mechanism is on the level of instinct. Encouraging one's mindfulness is a good thing here as in many other cases.
However we are inclined by genetics and upbringing, I don't think that that is the end of it. Humans are unique in that we have a lot of choice, and Buddhism itself is a proof that we can choose to shape our natures.
That's a shame, that somehow you were 'conned' into buying into the stereotypical image of a man. A Bloke.
There was also this one girl that a friend was seeing who was into being struck during sex and degraded. Really gave me a screwed up view on female sexuality.
Well, I'm not sure why...
Because male sexuality is just as "screwed up". There is a massive raft of men who actually plough their hard-earned money into satisfying their fetishes, both physical (sub males/dom females) and emotional. I learnt of a man who must, by his own estimation, spent around £50,000 on buying ladies' stockings and tights. Obsession didn't cover it.
Put that girl into a REAL situation of being violently beaten while raped, and trust me, she wouldn't even register on the pleasure scale.
It's a well-known fact that in the majority of cases, women - and men - who enjoy sado-masochistic role-play during sex, have a safety measure; they like the state of being submissive, yet in control of their submissiveness.
Sex is varied. And it most certainly isn't vanilla or safe. It is as varied in its diversity, as there are people having sex.
You would blanch at the tales of different likes and habits people have. The most 'normal, ordinary and conventional' people have the most extraordinary and bizarre likes and desires.
You could look at any couple in a mall, cafe, restaurant or supermarket, and never even begin to guess at what goes on behind their closed doors.
Incidentally, How did your friend feel about his girlfriend's sexual appetite?
Ok, stop a minute. Let's say you're walking along an ordinary high street. Saturday morning shopping. Loads of people out and about... couples, families.... In the face of a sudden onslaught from a source of aggression - how many of the men you see, do you suppose would automatically stand, roar like the Hulk, and bare their forearm muscles? Let me tell you. Very few. But very, very few.
To say that men are wired to be aggressive and domineering is doing the majority of men a gross disservice.
This forum is full of men. Would you label them as hard-wired to be domineering and aggressive?
Forget Buddhism, for a moment, and focus on genetic propensities. How many men on here do you suppose are suppressing or controlling strong aggressive domineering temperaments? I'm not talking about standard, normal bursts of anger or frustration. I'm talking of such traits at the same level you are....
Your image of human nature is what is screwed.
I don't deny that the majority of incidents on a broad scale probably DO involve far more men than women.
But look at the incidents. See the rationale behind it. A lot of times, it's alcohol-fuelled, and many times it's mob-mentality. There's safety in numbers. It's much more 'secure' if the crowd you're with is acting the same way. Watch one man on his own behaving like a moron, and even other males are critical.
I think you need to greatly broaden your outlook and balance your views. seriously, I do. Read up on other cultures. How many men are there in your family?
And how many direct female relatives do you have? Environmental influence plays a big part in your own perspective.
Why would you extrapolate one experience that one guy shared (and who knows how accurate it was from her point of view rather than his) to all of the female sexuality spectrum? People get off on, and enjoy, some crazy stuff. If you aren't in the bed with her, then it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you and it shouldn't influence your view of women as a whole. What someone likes in the bedroom varies as much as what their favorite meal is. Or their hobbies. Do you judge the whole of womanhood based on the fact that your friend's girlfriend likes to sprinkle rice krispies on her pizza? No? Then why do it with what they like in bed?
Your view is very limited and narrow, and for someone who is in his late 20s, that is really too bad. You need to expand your experience of the world and it's people. Perhaps you could audit or sit in on a human sexuality class at a local college. It would help give you a much better overall view of all of these topics in a place that is more objective and healthy discussion is encouraged. It is up to you to unlearn all of these preconceived ideas. The best way to do so is to expose yourself to people who are different or have different ideas. The people who taught you "how to be a man" were wrong. They picked up those beliefs falsely from their own parents and so on. You don't have to carry them.
This is something I will take on board. This is kinda why I got into Buddhism. It's nice exploring a deepness to the human experience that's not just based on our lizard brain.
If it means anything I have found a connection with a certain someone recently who I don't really wanna talk about on here any more yet and it makes me feel complete. Its made me not really care about the idea of sex anymore which actually seems to dominate my mind alot of the time and It's a relief. There is far more fulfilling things out there. This one person has made me feel like I have a different role to play then just being a horny driven ape. The feeing of being a protector and care giver for someone and having them want you around them just because you are you is warm. This Is why I asked about triggers, Is it possible that one person who perhaps you have been shut off from for years can be the source of feeling again?
I don't know any women who were ever interested in a so-called "bad boy". Women with healthy self-esteem (and some who have self-esteem issues, as well) avoid bad boys, and look for the good guys. Good guys do NOT finish last. Women seek them out. If they're shy, women will make the first move, and will keep trying until he gets the message. "Nice guy" is derogatory only when someone's faking being nice in order to try to impress a woman.
It sounds like you may have been reading the wrong blogs online, @pegembara. Plenty of women love sweet, kind, down-to-earth guys. Look around you and see how many nice guys are married; probably most of the married men you might see in any random crowd are nice guys, great guys.
Really? I have met quite a few women (especially younger ones) who appear to hook up with men who are just no good for them with the idea that they can fix them. It usually ends badly.
I have also done it before myself with women i.e. gone out with girls who were clearly bad news.
@Dakini
I agree. The situation is not clear cut.
I don't know anyone who expects this:-
Note the imperfect spelling
Women perpetuate this problem by believing in the male narrative.
>
It's usually women with self-esteem issues or who are immature or rebelling against a conservative upbringing, who do that, though. Young women actually warn each other about bad-news types; there was a fair amount of that going on in college. The women around me in college, my friends after college, and my young relatives now look/ed for men who would treat them well and be good, stable partners. It's a bit self-destructive to do otherwise, isn't it? Most people ultimately want to be happy and be appreciated, not mistreated.
I agree @Dakini - once women and men get to a certain age and maturity they normally settle with someone who treats them well.
I think what one considers a "bad boy" can vary a lot though. When it is well known someone is bad in particular ways, yes, most women will avoid them. I was meaning more subtle ways, or ways not everyone would know about. I'm not talking about criminals or heavy drug users or similar types of people. When I was dating "bad boys" they were more lost souls. People who were good at heart, but had issues that caused them to be shunned by society or popular groups in school and so on. To me, the popular kids had more issues than some of the lesser-desirable ones, really. Just clarifying. My ex turned out to be a bad boy but I had no idea until very far into the relationship when things started coming out in the wash and he started telling me things. He was a sweater-wearing, hair-doing, conservative college guy majoring in psychology. It was quite a while later, several years, before he told me how he used to do lines of coke at the beach.