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Madonna whore complex
Mingle
Veteran
in Philosophy
What can you tell me about this. It's a subject that seems very interesting and I feel like it really relates to me but I can't find any decent videos on It on YouTube. From what I understand it's when men find it very hard to find middle ground in a woman between being a lover of which he adors and her being someone he wants sex from. Probably behind certain Ideologies like "no sex before marriage" and the woman being seen as "spoilt" if she has sex.
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Reminds me of the "courtly love" thing from mediaeval times.
Why would you want to find a video? There's plenty of literature available on the matter, so wat is it you expect to watch? Genuinely, I'm asking.
It's actually more complicated than that. As a woman, I see it as a form of abuse, but I guess some would argue against that.
It places women in an impossible position: of being two (or more) things to one man.
Jerry Hall got it right when she quoted her mother as saying "to keep a man, you must be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom."
This is sadly, even in this so-called 'enlightened' age (with a lower-case 'e') still a mental state - if not a priority - for some men.
To be fair, some men who have this complex, suffer from dreadful guilt pangs and states of mental confusion and self-persecution. They openly realise it's a wrong View, and have great anxiety about harbouring such views.
It's a matter of re-conditioning what they have been conditioned to accept.
That such a view, is frankly skewed, harmful and detrimental to both their own happiness, and that of their partners or wives.
My understanding about it is that sometimes men (mostly) view women who enjoy sensual sexual pleasures as whores and if they don't partake are put on a pedestal, which results in a completely skewed view of women and their true natures. Not being able to accept women and their individuality - seeing them for who they are, personality-wise.
Yes, @silver , there is that aspect/viewpoint too. Either way, it is placing demands - from a male perspective - on a woman, to conform to an ideology which as you and I have said, is 'completely skewed'.
I think this attitude affects both men and women. Men are studs if they can get women, losers if they can't.
I heard this said when I was young, and maybe the Jerry Hall quote was true for my grandparents. Certainly my view is different, I think the old is something perpetuated by archetypes in the media and in peer groups... It is a wrong view, because you are seeing the woman as something she is not - she neither belongs on a pedestal or in a brothel. The natural woman is something quite different.
If you find this problematic, you should try meditating on women doing all the natural activities: farting, going to the bathroom, sweating, shaving her legs. It quickly makes clear that even a beautiful woman is normal, just human.
At the same time, you should realise that pretty much all women have sex, usually before marriage (at least here in the Western world), often with different men. Most women have had at least half a dozen different sexual partners, statistics say. That too is natural and normal, there is nothing wrong or distasteful about it. They are and should be allowed to be sexual creatures, often as adventurous as men, and in control of who they choose to invite to their beds.
Women do, I think, sometimes connect to a number of larger than life stereotypes that men find exciting, important or otherwise worthy of note. The mother Goddess, the whore, the maiden, the perfect partner... All of these can be found sometimes in the same woman! No wonder men get confused.
But it's all in the mind. If you can keep bringing it back to the natural woman, without all of these idealisations, then you are doing well in seeing what is really there, rather than what your imagination is presenting to you.
Can you expand on how you feel it relates to you?
Are you someone who has this dualistic opinion or view of women?
Can I presume that it is one you feel needs changing to a more positive view?
What is your opinion of the female gender in general?
I will add that I am attempting to be open-minded and generous in my inquiry, because I have strong views on prejudice and misogyny. They are views which have held indignation and hostility, but I realise many men are simply products of their upbringing.
However, many of these men are open to approach and receptive of opinions which either vary from theirs, or attempt to 'correct' them.
it is those who persist in their prejudice, and insist that men are superior, elevated or entitled, that are more suitable recipients of my indignation.... And I believe, rightly so.
Thanks for asking. It applies to me because I don't like to think sexually about woman I deem as "nice girls". It just makes me feel uncomfortable. That's not to say I don't find them sexually arousing just when I do it kinda stirs me up and I don't like to acknowledge it. I'll admit it, I have put them into a box that I don't want them to stray from. It's not something I consciously do though.
How does it make you feel to think your mother had sex? More than once?
I'm genuinely asking, I'm not trying to 'poke you in the chest', or provoke you into any kind of argument, but is this something you need to address? Many people find it difficult to view their parents as sexual animals, capable of arousal and intimacy.
But this is maybe whence your attitude towards women stems...
And since you did ask. My views on women in general at least with the younger generation anyway are not great. This again though is something that is very difficult to change.
I am not attached enough to my real mother to really have that come up. But as for my step mum who raised me I won't deny it is a cringy thought but I understandstand she is a woman with needs. Just needs I don't really wanna know about lol.
Never have I hit the refresh button so much. This thread is very interesting.
What are your opinions of the younger generation of young men? Do you have similar opinions of them?
or different opinions?
I'm just trying to pinpoint the root cause of why you might have developed and cultivated (even unconsciously) these opinions of women.
Why not, EXACTLY?
Because you don't like to think of her as a woman with sexual needs? Because you think it's "voyeuristic"?
Again, I'm whittling down. I'm not trying to pillory you, I get that a lot of people have these opinions, but as it's your feelings, views and opinions that are under discussion (through your thread) I'm obviously concerned with you, specifically.... You understand...
@techie and of course that is a huge part of the problem, that we are seen as something to be "gotten" or somehow possessed. Most men wouldn't want their mothers, grandmothers, or sisters thought of in that way, but too many think it is ok to think about the rest of us that way. Not saying that is how you think, just addressing the comment you made.
@mingle changing deeply ingrained beliefs or thoughts about anything is difficult. It takes time. The plus side here is you know something isn't right, and that alone is one of the hardest parts of addressing wrong views. There are no "good" or "bad" girls/women. None are more wholesome than the others. Everyone makes different decisions about how to manage their sexuality, and we don't get to place our values about it on them. Someone who decides to have an open and active sex life isn't less worthy of a good partner or marriage or parenthood. It's just a decision along with any other we make about what works for us in our lives. We choose to put moral values on sex. It doesn't have to be that way.
@federica No I understand. With regards to men, I view them as people that I have to compete with. I feel my worth as a man is decided by how good my genes are and how "well endowed". I pretty much see both men and women as modern day monkeys all just doing what they need to to pass on there genes. Men use there sexuality to destroy and degrade women use theres to manipulate (or so I think)
I hate to say it, but I'd love to take whoever honed your views on both men AND women and wring their necks....
Is there a Daddy-Tarzan counterpoint for men through women's eyes?
Lol perhaps
how does 'Daddy-tarzan' compare with 'Madonna-Whore'?
I don't want these beliefs. Anyway wouldn't it explain the Madonna whore complex? I think with it are ashamed at there sexuality and I believe we project our qualities onto women, those we want to acknowledge and those we don't. I think if a man with m/w complex see's his own sexual nature in the woman who has his mostly admirable qualities he cant handle that. Just a theory.
Could I ask you a favour?
Please learn the difference between 'Their', 'They're' and 'There'.
It's making reading your posts a little difficult....
Their - belonging to them
They're - short for 'They are'
There - a location.
And an apostrophe in 'see's' is incorrect.
'Sees' is merely a verb. You can't make a verb into a plural. A verb has no apostrophe because it renders the word as possessive.
There are three Michaels (Noun) in our class.
This book is Michael's.
Thank you.
@federica -- Madonna (apex purity); whore (whoopee)
Daddy (God); Tarzan (whoopee)
They're ... is that better-er?
I totally fail to see how Tarzan - the epitome of the 'macho he-man every woman would swoon to fall into the arms of (allegedly!), can possibly equate with 'whore' which is a derogatory, demeaning and insulting term.
I think men would mind less being called 'Tarzan' than women would, being called 'whore'.
And no, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any equivalent dualistic imagery held by women, of men.
Justin Bieber
Can only speak for myself here - looking back, chose that because it's what they definitely seemed to want - a mere survival thingy at the time. It's all (m/h) fertilizer.
Oh good God - the epitome of good taste decorum, good manners and respectability! NOT!!
Jeesh, if anyone places any value on that squirt, god help them!
I am not sure I understand what you're referring to. @silver... what did you choose...? I'm not getting the gist of your comment....
Yeah Daddy-Justin complex. I think it will catch on.
Oh, I get what you mean now.... Poor lad, he's barely out of puberty and already you're holding him up as a negative, derogatory image...
Way back then, chose to look up (put men on a pedestal) to them as semi/demi-gods or something along those lines. A couple of decades under one's belt can cure that dis-ease.
Once upon a time Buddha was passing from one place to another village to preach. When he found some huts. He asked for water and food at one door. One Lady came out and she told to wait for food and water as she was cooking food.
The villagers and head of village gathered to see that the Buddha was eating the food from a lady who was actually a whore and Buddha did not know. Head of village told Buddha to not eat food cooked by such a character less women.
Then Buddha said " How can this women be characterless but whole males from this village being a good character?" If this girl is characterless then this village is also characterless because people of village is responsible for her livelihood who take service of her. The village is responsible for this. Buddha ate food offered by that women and thanked.
So @Mingle what exactly is it you want to achieve here? How can we help?
So did you idolise them but hold them in contempt at the same time?
I was too naïve to hold them in contempt - it took some time before I saw through all the bad attitudes and beliefs that people have - not just men.
Then I was right. We don't have any kind of similar ideology about men, that is an equivalent to the 'Madonna/Whore' complex.
We were once conditioned as young girls to consider them the stronger animal, the dominant sex, the more powerful gender. Since our youth, we members of 'the weaker sex' have learnt that we are far from anything of the kind. As you say, a few trips round the block has opened our eyes to a different "reality" and redressed the balance.
I take your point regarding the 'bad attitudes and beliefs' regarding a lot of people, and not just men.
It's a question of conditioning, influence, education and social and cultural integration. And that is applicable to both genders.
Well I was wondering if anyone knew how to fix such a thing. @Kerome made some really good points.
Just seems like the sorta thing that would be really interesting to explore. It's always good to realise some deep routed stuff.
Well, 'fixing it' is up to you, because first of all, you have to change your own mind-set.
Respect your Mother (I'm talking about your step-mother). Talk to her about your attitudes .
She was young once. She was the age once, of the women you currently have a low opinion of.
Read some literature on the suppression of women and the way men have been active in dominating 50% of the population for millennia, simply because of their gender.
I'm not trying to start a flame war here. Honestly, I'm not.
I'm trying to get you to understand that this attitude you have developed and cultivated about young women you observe, is just part of a bigger picture; it is indicative of a judgemental attitude that subconsciously gives you a sense of entitlement.
Throughout the ages, every organised religion on the planet - INCLUDING Buddhism - has held women as being inferior, and subject to domination and abuse - in the widest possible meaning of the term - by men, purely and simply based on the fact that they are women. Nothing more.
Is that logical? Does it sound logical to you that some of the most vehemently misogynistic men on the planet, should hold women in such utter contempt, simply because they are women - even though they may have mothers and sisters whom they purportedly claim to love and respect?
I've met men like this. I've worked with them, engaged with them, talked to them and their attitude has been horrifying.
But you. You recognise this attitude you have, and I think it is based on a somewhat insular and inexperienced PoV.
Please don't think I am belittling or trying to judge you but consider this:
You have demonstrated some pretty 'shallow' ideas and notions about your physical appearance (regarding hair) your attitude to drink, and now this dysfunctional attitude and complex you have, regarding your view of women.
Either you've had a relatively insular upbringing, coupled with some warped influence, or you have formulated opinions based solely on your perceptions without further analysis or research.
How did it start being deeply rooted?
Why do you think you have this point of view, and how do you think it could be modified?
I would agree. However, you also pointed out below that "It's a question of conditioning, influence, education and social and cultural integration. And that is applicable to both genders." While we don't have any kind of similar ideologies about men, we do have what I believe to be equally harmful equivalents.
Anyway, I sincerely believe that inequality is a zero sum game that society plays. Anything one group loses, another group loses something of equal but opposite value. Neither sex achieves balance and both miss out on a middle way that would be preferable and more beneficial to everyone.
So it's not your fault if you have these views because it's how you were raised and how others treat women?????
I'm confused. If you want us to say it's not your fault and enable your victim view, sorry I'm not going to do that.
I am not seeking a victim complex. I don't want you to say its not my fault. If you believing in Santa clause would make everyone happier would you and could you?? I mean REALLY believe.
If it meant living in denial of who I am - NO
If you are seeking to become other than who you are, perhaps Buddhism is not for you.
@dhammachick I am not. Your message seemed to imply that I said what I said in order to get sympathy in fact it seemed pretty pointless. My reply to you I am stating how you cannot change your beliefs. I want mine to be different but doing so is like trying to believe in Santa. I simply stated that I don't want my beliefs because I don't want to be looked at as an arsehole because of where my reasoning settles.
@Mingle - actually that ^^ is what you should have said in the first place. That was concise, clear and answered the question.
What > @dhammachick said:
Well thanks but what question are you referring to?
Men don't have it easy either. Women too can't find the middle ground between having a bad boy type and the good nice guy husband material.
It places men in an impossible position: of being two (or more) things to one woman.
The equivalent derogatory, demeaning and insulting term for men is the Nice Guy.
Men use their sexuality to destroy and degrade?! Whatever are you talking about?
Women use theirs to manipulate? Manipulate to what end? What about all the average-looking women who couldn't use their sexuality to save their lives, if they had to? The ones no one notices? There are a lot of those. You seem to acknowledge only women with stereotypically ideal bodies, from the sound of it. What about plain women?
I think a lot of the problem is what men think women want, and what women truly want. And vice versa. And to generalize rather than deal with one person at a time. I went through a phase of wanting to fix boys/men I dated. I wanted the bad boy because I wanted to be the woman who saved him from himself/his life/his parents/etc. But I outgrew it. I met a nice guy. I married him. We are quite happy. He's not perfect. But he doesn't need "fixing" and he's not a project. So to assume any woman, or man, is in the same place at 22 as they are at 35 just is too much generalizing.
Beliefs absolutely can change, but the reasoning has to come from you, not a desire to change things for someone else (ie believing in Santa because it will do something for someone else). It sounds to me that you are more worried about how you are viewed, @mingle, by others for your beliefs/views rather than truly seeing a problem in them and wanting to change them because your views are not skillful and healthy views. Like all else in life, you have to want to change for the right reasons. Wanting to change so others see you in a better light is not a good motivation.
My brother was a nice guy and my sil landed him easily. Some women know how to shop, ha ha ha. With talking about 'every woman' wanting to fall into Tarzan's arms, is a common mistake of getting entangled with stereotypes. It's not easy to find the most accurate terminology in topics like these.
@pegembara, I hate to come back with the classic put down but I have to say: Women have known - and still know - oppression, sexual discrimination, abuse and violence for millennia.
You've had it rough in the dating pool for 20-odd years - and you're complaining about what it is women want....? Really?!?
Give me a break.