how to...leave a church or not
Per4umer
UK New
Hi, I hesitate to post this, as I feel many cannot relate. I am in an awkward position, I am a church member for want of a better description, but have many....reservations. Anyhow, for the past 6 months or longer I have changed I would honestly describe myself as a practising YOGI interested in buddhism, interested in Spirituality and realising that spirituality is not blinkered or just christian. Of course. lol.(ironic lol).
I have witnessed many things that cannot be explained by a vicar. humm.
So, the situation is I have friends in the christian church, and I am part of that church, I have duties that means i have to go to church a few times a month, trying to leave but wanting to stay friends with the churchgoers....I don't have a wide circle of friends so I feel I need to stay in church to keep these friends but they don't know I feel like a total hypocrite and how can I develop myself when I feel tied to the church but know that they would not understand my new perspective. sorry for long ramble. maybe someone can help. .....or offer some comments.
Comments
Hmm... well, one thing you could do is to research the parallels between Buddhism and Christianity. I think someone wrote a book about it some years ago, collecting parallel quotes of Jesus and the Buddha. That might at least give you some common ground to share with your friends, and help resolve some of the "hypocrite" feelings. You can focus on those commonalities when you serve in church, and move to a back burner the dogma you don't agree with.
Focus on the common values, like: Christian charity and Buddhist compassion, Christian humility and Buddhist humility/no-self doctrine, and so forth.
thanks Dakini
You're welcome.
I just did a quick search on Amazon, the online bookseller in the US. There are 4 books on this topic, 3 different authors:
Jesus and the Buddha: The Parallel Sayings
Jesus and the Buddha: Friends in Conversation
Living Buddha, Living Christ (by Thich Nhat Hanh)
Going Home: Jesus and the Buddha as Brothers (Thich Nhat Hanh)
Here's one more:
https://www.amazon.com/Buddha-Jesus-Insiders-Buddhism-Christianity/dp/1854249568/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476737042&sr=1-8&keywords=Jesus+and+the+Buddha
Also, if you're in the UK, this may not be helpful, but in the US, there's a Catholic priest who's a gifted, inspirational speaker, and weaves Buddhism into his lectures, brilliantly. He broadcasts on radio for about 6 months every year. He's very popular with ecumenical types, as well as with Catholics in his home state of NM. Here's some info on him. He may have some books or lectures available online. I think you can buy his podcasts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rohr
I believe @federica may practice the two in conjunction.
I'm sure she'll be able to offer some help.
Thanks for the heads-up Bunks. I don't actually, but I have no hostility or animosity towards Christian Religion. I also like to bind the two, inofar as they can be bound....
I remarked to a friend a short while ago, that you can take the Girl (that's me) out of Roman Catholicism, but you can't take the Roman Catholicism out of the girl.
@Per4umer (Grab a coffee, this may be a little long...) I am half Italian, and all of my Italian family is Roman Catholic. I was born, baptised, educated and confirmed in the RC Faith. I went to a convent for schooling, I married my ex-husband in a RC Nuptial mass, and I had my daughters baptised into the Faith too. They also attended RC schools, and I was a Parent Governor at their RC Primary school, for two consecutive 'terms of office'.
And yet.... and yet and yet and yet.... throughout all this, I was aware of conforming. 'Believing', because I was expected to believe. And goodness, I really did try. I tried to throw myself into the accepted thrust of the RC devotee. I prayed, attended mass, went to confession, took Holy Communion and collaborated with and contributed to Church life. And I enjoyed it. Just as you enjoy the company, the camaraderie, the belonging, the sharing, the unity, friendship and Fellowship. It felt good to be at one with everyone.
But there, right at the very back, in the dark recess of my mind, lay a tiny speck of doubt I resolved to ignore and bury, but which instead, continued to niggle and grow.
At some point, I decided to study to become a Shiatsu practitioner; an acupressure masseuse. This meant attending a College, and studying not only Anatomy, Physiology and Pathology but delving into the new, strange and utterly alien (and occasionally bizarre) realm of Traditional Oriental Medicine. Along with this, we also learnt Tai Chi, and meditation, and aspects of Oriental Spirituality: About Confucius, The Tao, and subsequently Buddhism.... I felt so drawn to this entire philosophy, that it in fact began o trouble me, how something so distant and alien could prove to be so fascinating, enticing, familiar and comfortable.
This was of course, my guilt. I felt as if I was betraying my roots, and snubbing the very fundamental solid plinth I had constructed my faith and devotion on. It was leading me to analyse, scrutinise and seriously question everything upon which my life had been based so far: The Catholic Family.
And yet I felt so at home with everything I was studying: The Yin & Yang, The 5 Transformations, The meridians, channels and points of energy within the body. And the ancient wisdom and Spiritual mystery of Ancient Masters, Gurus, sages and Teachers who seemed to have had it all worked out, long before Christ ever came into the picture....
And here's the ultimate irony: A book came my way. A book which hit me between the eyes like a blow from good ol' Thor's sledgehammer. A book of such brilliant clarity and insightful mastery, that I felt it had been written word by word, for my eyes only, and had just been waiting for me to pick it up, open it and read it.
The book? "The Tibetan Book of Living & Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche.
And how did this book come to me?
From my uber-Roman Catholic Mother. Who still goes to Mass and who prays daily to God, Christ and the Virgin Mary.
For a while, I tried to reconcile both Buddhism and Christianity, join them as one practice, and accept the two,alongside one another, and as equal fellows.
And Books* by HHDL, (His Holiness the Dalai Lama) TNH (Thich Nhat Hahn) and Jim Pym (A Zen Buddhist Monk who is also an Elder in the Quaker Brotherhood) seemed to suggest that the two COULD be accepted in equal measure.
However, after some time, I realised I couldn't do this.
For my own part, I couldn't ford the river with a foot in two canoes.
I eventually found myself at a 'place' where I had to choose.
And really, I knew, without any shadow of a doubt, what I had to do. Because from the very first instant the essence of Buddhism came into my life, everything had fallen into place. Everything was logical. Profoundly clear, sensible and straightforward. It all made sense.
That's not to say I found everything easy to process, understand or implement.
Far from it. But it drew me and spoke to me in a way that Catholicism had never done.
Fortunately, those who were party to, and witnessed my transition from one path to the other, were without exception, kind, understanding, supportive and encouraging.
And the odd one or two who were puzzled, perplexed and incredulous, were not close to me or particularly significant or influential, so to be brutally honest, their opinions didn't matter a jot.
I can still talk of God, Christ and the Christian religion with those who wish to discuss it. I have a fair knowledge of the Bible, and can glean much that is relevant, pertinent and uplifting from the Gospels. I respect those who believe in God, and although I have no room in my life for an omnipotent, omniscient all-powerful Deity, I can see why some cling to the belief one exists. And that's ok.
There is much comfort and joy for me in some religious music (Oratorios, requiems and choral religious works) and I used to sing in a choir, Christmas time being a particularly joyous and emotional time of the year....
More surprisingly, my Catholic family in Italy didn't bat an eyelid. And of course, my immediate family here, took it all in their stride.
After all, it was my mother's fault....
I cannot and will not advise you either way.
The decision you reach, and how you reach it, is your journey.
But be true to yourself. Don't conform out of fear of criticism, or of being ostracised, or of 'losing out'.
Anything I lost was amply made up for.
I have never regretted my veering a new course, and I am the better for it.
Do what you know is right, instinctively, for you.
Living Buddha, Living Christ by TNH
"You don't have to sit on the Floor by Jim Pym)
That's one of the most beautiful things I've seen you write, @Federica.
Appreciate the share.
So much of this depends on your church and their attitudes. Some churches and congregations are more accepting than others. If it's an evangelical "Buddhists are going to hell and yoga and meditation are tools of the devil" type church, you might have to make a painful decision. That decision might be to stay because of the friends there and limit your Buddhism to reading and private study. That's not a wrong decision. You practice Buddhism if you show compassion and effort to live the 8-Fold Path, and nowhere does that say you must join a Sangha.
There's all sorts of platitudes I can spout off, but in the end you have to do what seems right for you, even if it's painful. I wish you success and happiness whatever your decision.
There are some great vicars out there, don't be so sure. Some practicing vicars are openly atheists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm
Thomas Merton you might find interesting. Very much a Christian.
Outstanding post from @federica
The difficulty you are experiencing is imaginary ... may need a shift of emphasis, some Christian friends may be very interested in your journey into yoga and Buddhism. They might be willing participants in a joint retreat to a Christian, Buddhist or Yoga retreat. Christian meditation and yoga exists.
The Church for some is fellowship. Seems friendly enough ...
I would suggest exploring other groups while maintaining a connection with your church, broaden your horizons, meet new people.
Don't feel the need to make a choice right now. Often when we feel the need to do something drastic, what we need most is to take some time to let things settle and go from there. When I first started getting interested in other religions, I was a teenager and not allowed to "leave the church" because my parents insisted on it. Because I wanted to cut that tie, I wanted that symbolic, forceful leaving. I wanted to write a letter or something to say "Hey, I'm out of here." But in the end, it simply became less a part of my life until I stopped going and never went back.
There are people who successfully combine the 2. There is nothing wrong with being a meditator, a yogi, a spirtually developing person while keeping your church ties. You might find some conflict when you start to investigate things within your church teachings, but you might not, either. It just depends where you focus, as all religions foundations are the same as far as qualities to develop it's just the details of how and why that each religion specializes in. My sister is a Buddhist Pagan who follows the teachings of Christ. But she is unwilling to consider herself a Christian because of the overall assumptions that are made about what they believe. She doesn't believe in heaven or hell or even sin. But she believes in the foundations of what Jesus taught. Try not to get overly caught up in the label part.
Don't worry about feeling like a hypocrite. You are free to set up your life however you choose, and you are under no obligation to share that with your church friends. Sometimes when we start exploring new things, we feel the need to shout it from the rooftops, to announce a major change in our identity, in the mask we are currently wearing. But don't worry about it. Just enjoy not wearing a mask. Don't feel like you have to be a yogi before church, and a Christian during church and something else after.
For what it's worth, I didn't lose a single friend or family member when I stopped going to church. Or when I was flirting with Paganism. Or when I took my Buddhist refuge and Bodhisattva vows. There have been people in my life who have naturally fallen away as both of our lives took different paths and our interests brought new people into our lives. But there was never any sort of shunning or forceful ending of relationships. I also did not make a point to "come out of the closet" in any case.
thanks for all your posts.
I will muse over them and find them very useful. Will comment more in a few days when I have more time.
Mother Teresa doubted the existence of God and they made her a saint, so it's apparently OK to have some doubts. If a stranger showed up at the church and said they didn't really know what to believe but would like to hear what the church has to say, would they be welcomed?
I can't help but feel that people often get things backwards: It's not you who are for the church, but the church that is for you. It's sort of like a treasure hunt -- the church/temple/religion/philosophy provides a clue to how anyone might come home. It is not that home itself, no matter how much chitter-chatter surrounds it.
I also grew up in a Christian church (my father was a minister for over 30 years), and I still sometimes attend a local Episcopal Church. There's a part of me that loves the ritual and the liturgy, especially receiving The Blessed Sacrament, and this particular church is extremely liberal and accepting. The main stay of my practice these days is Buddhism. However, I live in a small, rural town with no Sangha or Buddhist community to speak of, so the fellowship at church is nice from time to time. Many of the people there are openly LGBT, animal right's activists, gardeners, artists and there's even one Gi Gong practitioner.
There's a part of me who doesn't want to completely give up on Christianity (believe me, I've tried), because it's been such a force in my life that I feel like it's ingrained in my DNA. Even though I can't really call myself a Christian and don't really believe all the theology, going to church often feels like going home to me. After all, I've lived 48 years in a Judeo-Christian society and grew up in a Christian family. Over the years I've sat through somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 Sunday School lessons and approximately 4500 church services. One doesn't simply walk away from that much indoctrination without it profoundly effecting the lens through which he or she experiences the world.
As some commenters already suggested, I focus on the similarities between the two traditions...compassion, kindness, generosity, love, contemplation. And I mostly exist somewhere in the tension between the two spiritual paths without exclusively claiming to be one or the other. And it seems rational enough to me that both The Buddha and The Christ were Englightened Beings with lots to teach us. Don't know if that helps any.
I think leaving any long-time tradition is a process of gradual letting go. You first let go of the least convenient aspects, then slowly things that meant a bit more. There is always a new perspective that comes with it, you reflect and perhaps find that things were not exactly as you thought they were. And some aspects of the old tradition you keep respecting after you've left.
Either way, you cannot deny that the period of your life spent with that tradition has shaped you. However much you try to deprogram yourself, to free yourself from its edicts, you will find that it has left its impressions and traces even though you may no longer be captive to its forms. That is something you can try to compensate for, but you can't erase.
Ultimately I think these things are part of a process of growth. You grow through one stage, and the next comes along and builds on it. You learn and constantly extend yourself further. The trick is when you come to a turning point, a crisis in your adherence to a tradition, to find your next step and be inspired to new progress.
Being a 'a total hypocrite' is one of my hobbies.
Or to put it another way, 'Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner'.
Tsk, tsk what am I babbling, what I meant to say is, 'I take refuge in the Buddha, Bodhisattva Sangha and Sutras'.
Better? Jesus just happens to be a Boddhisattva incidentally ...
You also mention being a yogi.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/hby/hby11.htm
You may be a yogi, like JC but are you a Buddhist yogi? Not yet? Tsk, tsk ...
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/05/before-buddha-became-a-buddhist-he-was-a-yogi/
You are doing fine. No worries.
@federica I went looking for ‘religious guilt’ on here and it led me to your remarks above. I, too, have a great deal of difficulty turning my back on my Christian upbringing, yet I find it confusing to fuse both Christianity and Buddhism in my life, my practice. I’m still at a crossroads, some distance behind you on the road to clarity, but I know which path I must tread. It’s just so difficult to turn away from God/ Jesus, especially in times of need for comfort. We walk…..🙏🏻
I am surrounded by Christians, atheists and characters so dubious they may be Roman Pagans or Catholics/Papists as they are now known.
As my dad used to say "et cum spiritu tuo" - also available as a heavy metal band for @Linc
As you may know, God is Black
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna
However, you might prefer to join a more Ecumenism style of halfway housing ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Ordained_Scientists
It depends what you actually want. Often a religion presents itself as a source of truth, and you get taken in by it and become indoctrinated by the community and ritual, only to discover at a later date that what your heart really wants is to search for truth, love, freedom.
I grew up in the Osho communes of the 1980’s, and for me that was the beginning of a long spiritual path, with some pauses, which took me past Christianity, Osho, Buddhism, Advaita, and other places. Each new stop along the way gave me wisdom, sincerity and peace, and caused me to reflect with increased insight on what had gone before.
Sometimes it is necessary to let go of the old while moving forward with the new, but not always. Sometimes the old just lingers and things move in parallel for a while.
Good to see you @Jeroen and hello again @lobster ! I have returned from a couple of years of cave dwelling (my house in Wrexham, Wrexham being extraordinarily trendy of late for foot / windbag based reasons). I’ve not practiced all that much in recent times, but have found myself drawn back to my Samatha UK Trust meditation group, as the practice is hugely calming.
I made a new friend in my walking group yesterday, who was both a Quaker and a Buddhist. Interesting. I’ve come across this somewhere in the past. The Quakerism is sufficiently flexible to allow for anyone to be welcome, whether faithful or of no faith.
So one can practice a silent sitting within that from a Christian or Buddhist fusion perspective and also pop off and be a Buddhist elsewhere too. It might be spiritual window-shopping, I don’t know, but I’ll explore more with him as our talks develop.
Quakerism is now for oating and blends nicely with Buddhist seated meditation. You just sit on the pews provided. Very quietly.
https://postmodernquaker.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/a-quakers-buddhist-practice/
i like my christ practice ,it serves me. the lords prayer is a good mantra: lord jesus, give us our daily bread, lead us not into temptation, and lead us to greener pasture. good karma reminder: you reap what you sow. The golden rule:treat others as you want to be treated. Christ walk is Buddha walk to my bodhi heart.
@Alex
Have you read " Going Home- Jesus and Buddha as Brothers" by Thich Nhat Hanh?
To me, the teachings of Jesus and Buddha compliment each other nicely until Yahweh comes up. Even creators may rise and fall in a beginningless universe.
The main thing is how we treat each other and the world.