Why Tibetan?
smarino
florida Explorer
Being a Zen Buddhists that practices at a Shambhala Center, I often feel like a foreign exchange student. Other than the koans that the Rinzai folk use, every single Zen center I have ever been a part of had just one teacher, and the practice was always chanting (sometimes, not always). sitting zazen, work practice, walking meditation, practicing mindfulness, and the occasional interview w/ the teacher (who could be counted on to never give you an answer unless you specifically asked a question, and most answers consisted of 'go sit w/ that'). Even during a sesshin that's all we did, we just did it all day long.
The Tibetans are a totally different animal. Dedication of merit, Tonglen practice, contemplation practice, guides, senior teachers, you name it. One member of our group won't be at tomorrow's meditation and lunch because they are going across the bay to Tampa to participate is some sort of Green Tara Puja deal. I have a link below
http://www.yuloling.com/whats-on/27-green-tara-puja-ritual-730am-sundays-at-kylbc.html
I don't fool w/ any of this because I don't think mixing practices is such a good idea. Even Crazy Wisdom Trungpa counseled against that. Looking at some of the goings on w/ the Tibetans, I may as well be Dorothy in the Land of Oz. So I just go for the usual meditations there, which are essentially Zen sits, and I will do the contemplation meditations, but I just do my usual Zen meditation. I participate in the social stuff too.
So my questions is, why do they do all this fancy smancy stuff that is akin to Buddhist sorcery? It seems very convoluted. Honestly, all the Buddha did was sitting meditation and he woke up. I have had some wake ups using mindfulness, which I find much more difficult to do that sitting zazen, but it is much more powerful too. There were times when I was totally in the moment and karma was instantaneous. If you've ever experienced that you know what I mean. So if that's all anyone needs to wake up, and it is in my book, why do these different lineages like the Tibetans and Shambhala have all these complicated mantras and meditations when if you practice just one discipline diligently, enlightenment is in this very moment? I just don't get it. Obviously the chanting and drums and stuff in the Green Tara ritual are designed to get "you" out of the picture, I get that. It's the goddess diety business that I don't get. Along w/ a lot of other stuff. It drives me a little crazy. Why don't they just meditate and be done w/ it?
Comments
OK, I may have had a realization on this. They do it because it works. Still, it seems like an awful lot of trouble. But then Zen practice probably sounds deadly boring to some people.
Again with the negative connotations...
Tibetan Buddhism is not even one thing. . It is hard to explain to someone who is open to learning and listening. Nevermind someone who has already made up their mind. There are quite a few threads about it on the board already. If it's not for you, why does it matter if you understand it or not? I find I don't have the patience to even answer you right now. Prefer to go practice my fancy schmancy sorcery.
"Different strokes of the Dharma paddle for different folks on the raft"
I guess it has a lot to do with the 84,000 different teachings (give or take a few )
I like to mix practices.
The crux of Buddhism lies halfway -middle path- at the crossroads of all the different schools.
I am basically a Zen/Chan/Theravadin at heart, but since Tibetan schools are more widely represented in Switzerland, I have found myself revolving mostly around Tibetan sanghas.
The spiritual path we choose, is the result of the very peculiar mixture provided by the variables of our aggregates, rearing, environment, cultural conditioning.
You may try different schools for size, decide which one works for you, but never besnide the ones that did not.
I find the notion of a god utterly preposterous, still there are millions of people in the world who believe in one.
If you have personally been involved in Tibetan Buddhism and it has not worked for you, I think a debate is rather pointless and there is very little anyone can say to make you change your mind.
Otherwise, the aim of the thread would be to contrast the magnificence of your school of choice against Tibetan Buddhism, and, personally, the whole papanca and verborrea strikes me as totally anti-zen.
@smarino, both Zen and Tibetan Buddhism are sheltered together under the Mahayana Tradition umbrella. perhaps a little research of your own into the history of both will prove good instruction, rather than being so dismissive of a Tradition the origins of which, differ wildly from Zen, which was in fact a 'break-away' Tradition...
Also, your practice may well be enhanced by reading this.
Or maybe, this....
Why are there so many different kinds of shoes? Everybody should wear the simple kind of shoes that I wear. We don't need all the fancy smancy shoes.
I had also wanted to quote that anecdote, @person
Two left feet.
Two different shoes possibility? Yeah!
I iz many footed. So many booties.
There is a cultural variable to account for as Buddhism spread throughout different lands, @Steve_B.
Taking into account that the Buddha left no written testimony of his teachings, compare the Pali Dhammapada and the Chinese version and you get a whole new set of teachings, which rather than baffling, I find only adds to the richness of Buddhism.
There is so much to learn from all the different traditions!
@smarino, I started with Zen and Theravadin. It was very plain and I found the Tibetan style old-fashioned and weird, too much flouncy stuff, too patriarchal, not enough focus on meditation - all those mantras, chanting etc. Really off-putting. So I can really see what you're on about.
Now I'm with a Tibetan group, specifically within the Kagyu tradition. That's the same one as yours though probably has a different vibe.
The town where I am in the UK has very few Buddhist groups though the one I was with in Sydney had a small group here. It was a Thervadin-style one but I had a falling out with one of the people. Because it was a small group I felt I had little alternative but to leave and to find another group. So I looked around and found a small group that meets occasionally and is devoted to a teacher, and happens to be Tibetan in the Kagyu tradition.
Interestingly I now enjoy the extra bits. For me, it gives a bit more oomph some how. I take the bits I like and leave what I don't. For instance, the teacher was in town one weekend and he did an empowerment. The mudras he did I could feel in my body like someone stirring a pot with their hands. It was very unusual. I don't think many people get this type of response but I sure felt it.
What I like about the group I'm with is that it's informal, anyone can ask anything, there's a lot of 'love in the air'. With the Tibetan practices there are so many types of meditation it feels more relaxed, more life, more love. And there are plenty of talks. It feels quite villagey in a way that I can't quite explain. In some strange way it reminds me of Peter Bruegel the Elder's painting of the Peasant Wedding somehow. Plenty going on, quite celebratory.
I listen a lot to Pema Chodron's talks. There's a CD set called Awakening Love and on that she cites a book Awakening Through Love by John Makransky. It's been transformative because it gives instructions on how to find the love within you - you have the love already so all you need is to uncover it. This book also brings in other aspects of Tibetan teaching like the Madhyamaka teachings which lead to the understanding emptiness.
I personally couldn't find a connection with the metta bhavana practice (may I be happy, may I be safe, may I be at peace). I tried for years and years and even did an honours thesis on it. But the Tibetan style I found warmer.
Each person is different and what works at one time doesn't work at another. My experience is that it's about the group as much as anything. Take what works, leave behind the rest. If you have an opportunity to try the weird stuff, do because you don't know what'll happen. It's called Vajrayana because vajra is diamond and yana means way. It cuts through everything.
It took me a long time to like the Tibetan style. Now I think it's fab!
@DhammaDragon I think you'll find @Steve_B was just being sarcastic, as he is 'complaining' in the same way @smarino was. I think he was having a 'poke' at the Op, because the question (about so many shoes) is basically ridiculous.
Unless, of course, you knew that, and were simply elaborating.....
@Tiddlywinds sums it up. As someone who finds a home in the middle of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, I can support @karasti & @DhammaDragon's feeling's on this too.
Personally speaking, I have noticed threads on NB denigrating certain paths, TB always seeming to get called "superstitious", full of silly rituals, supernatural etc. In trying to adhere to Right Speech (and probably failing dismally), I fail to see why, if a path doesn't suit, you need to slag it off, even hiding behind jest. If it doesn't work for you, put it aside and move onto another path. After all, as mentioned before, there are at least 84,000 Dharma doors. You don't have to be a dick when closing each one.
_ /\ _
I need all the oomph I can get.
What you are describing is the palpable (for some) lineage blessing.
As a part time Tantrika I speak fluent Twilight and advanced gibberish (usually to scare the demons).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_language
Personally I leave all the doors open ...
Intended as rhetoric as opposed to sarcasm (I'll have to work on that), but yes. The answer to my question -- that shoes evolve over time and across cultures, for many purposes, and in aggregate represent a rich cultural diversity -- can be applied to Buddhism. And to motorcycles, music, architecture, cuisine, etc.
Go to a Buddhism store, try on a few Buddhisms in your size, buy the ones that work for you. Others will choose differently. Very differently. We're going to need a LOT of Buddhism stores, aren't we? If you wear out your raft -- sorry, I meant shoes -- or if it stops working for you, maybe shop in a different store next time. Good thing there are so many.
I think this is approximately the same answer as given by Shoshin and DhammaDragon in plain and fancy variations (and delivered in different shoeboxes).
Ah, ok, gotcha. That put us both on the right track. Thanks, @Steve_B for clarifying.
I think the problem is that for beginners Buddhism can be pretty overwhelming. Even before you get started, you have all these schools and traditions to cope with, you have to make a choice and it takes months just to get a handle on the differences, and by necessity you end up having to absorb a lot of lore while muddling through.
Because of that there is a tendency to "go to the source", the actual words of the Buddha, to stay away from the colourfully mystical and to simplify. Which is why I think the complexities of Tibetan Buddhism get some stick on occasion.
But it is very much a case of what you feel attracted to. My local sangha is a Tibetan Buddhist centre of the Gelugpa school, and they are very oriented towards learning a solid foundation before you jump into the deep end of meditation. I've been there a few times and many aspects of it have been pretty good, although I may make the switch to a Theravadin school a little further away.
Different people learn with different styles. Some people learn best by turning inward and just doing. Others need some introduction before they do their own trial and error. Still others need to read a manual before they try anything.
Zen probably falls more into the first category. Tibetan probably falls closer to the end category. Tibetan is big on debates, dialog, and learning the "why" of buddhism. Along the way, you pick up traditions, some that seem normal and others maybe not.
View it kinda like if you wanted to build a chair, and knew nothing about woodworking. Some people learn best by getting their hands on some powertools and seeing what they can do. Others learn best by getting a short intro on what each machine does, then seeing what they can do. Still others need plans on how to build a chair, and want to ask questions as they are making cuts. No one of these is wrong, just different.
If someone who learns best in the first category attempted to learn the way of the last category, they would probably feel very frustrated ("Why are we spending all this time talking and reading? Just do it already!"). Likewise, if someone who learns best in the last category attempted to learn the way of the first category, they would probably feel very frustrated ("It's a powertool, what do you mean just do it? I don't know what I'm doing!"). The wrong learning style for the wrong person could mean that it takes significantly longer to learn something.
At least, that's my take on it.
Tibetan Buddhism is fascinating, but it's not criticizing to point out that it's a far different animal than the other surviving branches of Buddhism in the East. It's highly esoteric and many of the rituals and practices don't seem to have much to do with the Noble Truths and even go counter to other schools. Being esoteric, the temples insist only the initiates who have advanced to the proper level get a complete explanation. Demon worship? Tantric sex? Making drinking cups out of human skulls? Of course it's going to both fascinate and draw some criticism.
Archeologists and historians will tell you that Tibetan Buddhism in some ways is more faithful to how Buddhism was actually practiced at the time missionaries fanned out from India. We have magic spell books the monks carried, for instance, so it wasn't all about meditation and building good karma. From there, that remote mountain culture remained isolated enough to evolve on its own for the most part. It's as different from our Westernized Buddhism as their language is from English.
I guess the best thing to do is point out that a lot of this is cultural, much of it left behind in Tibet as it spreads to other cultures, and any practice transplanted from other cultures is going to have elements that look strange to us. Korean Zen is heavily into prostrations and chanting. You're supposed to do 108 bows every day. No, you can't do 107 bows. We're talking dropping to your knees and pressing your head to the floor. What does this have to do with the Noble Truths? Not a thing. Why can't you just bow from the waist? Because in Korea, when a lowly peasant encountered a high ranking official, you'd better do a full prostration if you wanted to keep your head where it belonged. Tradition and custom, that's all.
Having blown out my knees early in life, I decided not to torture myself with this part of Korean Zen. I wrote a letter once, to Master Seung Sahn, and while he didn't write me back personally, I got a typed letter from someone saying they get many people with the same problem writing, and the Master says if you put the same amount of effort into doing one prostration that others put into all 108 or even do them in your head if you don't have functioning legs, it's all the same.
But I digress. I'm just worried we get touchy about people expressing their misgivings about the cultural aspects of our various practices and take offense. Not having studied or practiced Tibetan Buddhism, some of what you guys do is pretty freaky to me. I accept it's because that's not my thing. I don't get it. On the other hand, sitting and staring at a wall for hours at a time while trying to figure out the sound one hand clapping makes is going to be nonsense to other people, even other Buddhists. It's all good.
@Cinorjer, I guess there's a difference between actually attending the Buffet-banquet, sampling the dishes and then saying which ones you're not drawn to, and just looking at the menu and declaring the dishes to be disgusting when you're not even sure what's in them.
Considered opinion after experience, is one thing.
Dismissive comments based on assumptions and a general ignorance of the practice - is another....
@Cinorjer I don't mind questions and "why on earth do they do some of these things?" types of questions. And I've answered many of them in other threads. It is the continuing carry over that the OP is demonstrating a complete lack of respect for anything different than his own view. He isn't asking because he is curious or wants to learn, he is asking to cement his already-exiting view that it's all a bunch of hooey and people practicing in a way that is not similar to his are doing it wrong. And then like so many do, he claims his dismissive attitude is his honesty and bluntness. Pfft.
@smarino - I don't mind you wondering out loud even in a cantankerous way. I do it myself sometimes! Definitely. I don't find your OP dismissive in the least - It's how I wonder out loud, as well. I don't know if it's accurate to read into your OP what I did: which is, why can't everybody be just even a little more alike - I mean after all, there's power in numbers. What we can accomplish and do with more in the way of unity kind of thing...
First, let me point out that anyone that thinks that what I said was meant in any way to degenerating a lineage, or to "prove" that one lineage is better than another, needs to either learn to read English or see a psychiatrist. So let's get that out of the way right now. Nothing was said or implied to even suggest such nonsense, and as a Buddhist practitioner of well over 20 years, well, one learns a little something along the way, so why would I do that?. This was simply a question of, well, questions. In my second short post I noted that what they did obviously worked, so how is that favoring anything over anything else?
Today at my sangha I had a long talk w/ a half dozen people about this, and they weren't able to come up w/ too many answers either. In fact, they discovered that they wondered themselves why there was such a complicate regime to Tibetan Buddhism. One of the more humorous ideas was that it was cold in Tibet and people had too much time on their hands, so they had plenty of opportunities to come up w/ all the different deities (which are usually Hindu anyway) and complicated rituals. Before I get crucified here, this was from a long time Shambhala practicioner, not me.
Others voiced concern about teachers that had too much power, which sometimes got abused, and all were a little spooked about the complications of tantric teachings. No one thought my questions were odd or strange. In fact, as I mentioned, these were the same subjects they had often asked themselves about too. Maybe there aren't any definitive answers, but any spiritual path that cannot accept questioning and is rigidly dogmatic is a false path.
I am simply curious, that's all. It's like asking why would I walk 10 miles and have to do cartwheels to get to me destination if I could simply walk there in a short stroll? That's the spirit that I posted this in. A bad analogy, but it's all I got. What I see here, and maybe that is all there is to see, is that it comes down to different strokes for different folks. A big thank you to Tiddlywinds and a few others that have common sense, and were helpful because they saw the intent that the post was started with.
Karasti, you are in some other world to say that, and totally out of line. A very bizarre misinterpretation of what I asked. Well good luck on that one. I will simply let that stand, and hope you can at some time come to see reality as it is and not as you think it is.
Welcome, @satcittananda!
@smarino: maybe it was totally unintentional on your part, but there is a certain sarcastic drift underpinning your presentation.
Maybe you meant to lend some humour to your thread but it may come through as ironic to some.
Well, that is for you to think about DD and not me. I know in what manner I meant to say things in, you only assume. Assumptions are always to be avoided, and if even after I explained my intention you are still attached to your interpretation, then that is basically your problem, not mine.
It's supposed to be ironic!
Tashi delek (こちらこそ、ありがとうございます) @DhammaDragon
I never said it were MY interpretation, nor did I continue to be attached to an "opinion" I never had in the first place.
As to "interpretations," yes, the text lends itself to different interpretations, otherwise it would not have triggered the reactions it did.
It is as beholden upon you to explain yourself as clearly as you can, as it is upon others to make the effort to understand your intention. Any criticism, whether implied, intended or accidental, is for you to calculate.
Your original post smacks of criticism; and that IS on you, not us.
If more than one person has arrived at a particular conclusion, it's worth examining your own statement wording, to see just how they got there.
So kindly watch your tone, and try to understand where WE have now come from.
"Do not believe in what you have heard; do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations; do not believe in anything because it is rumored and spoken by many; do not believe merely because a written statement of some old sage is produced; do not believe in conjectures; do not believe in that as truth to which you have become attached from habit; do not believe merely the authority of your teachers and elders. After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and gain of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
"no merit at all. Vast emptiness, nothing holy"
THAT is where we come from fedrica, and don't you forget it. Apparently others can criticize me w/o end for something I did not do, but you are going to call me out for simply pointing out that I did not do what I am accused of?
Well I will tell you this, fedrica, you can shove your phony, hypocritical attitude where the sun don't shine boy (or girl, as the case may be). This is just a club, a sort of cult of people who really have no interest in Buddhism, just in being assholes to anyone that dares to question anything, and there is as much humor here as there is in a morgue.
Who the hell are you to tell me anything? What the hell do you know about Buddhism? This is just another online forum populated by trolls w/ a few, a very, very few authentic human beings, and it is not worth my time to come here anymore. I have a life. So by all means ban me. I give a rat's ass, and I am manipulating you to do just that. So hop to it!
What w/ Tor browser's for masking IPs and the ease of getting new email addresses it is impossible to ban anyone anyway. I could come back to give you a rough time for your ignorance and stupidity at any time in any guise. Anyone could, don't forget that you power hungry idiot. People like you are the phoniest of the phonies, wielding their imagined power over meek types that allow your sort of impotent bullying. In the real world, you would not behave as you do. In the real world, I behave exactly as I do here. That's the difference between men and boys, women and girls, real people and wanna bes, Buddhists and Bullshitters.
I found this card this morning when I woke up. Seems to be skillful advice for all of us, yes?
smarino, I'm very sorry to see this.
Buddhism has much to offer you.
What happened to the zen attitude of non-discrimination.
It doesn't even matter if your reasons are right or not, your approach is wrong.
This is so sad to see unfold. I don't understand the need for those comments or attacks @smarino.
Right Speech. I hope you get what you are looking for.
Sadly, it doesn't seem like 20 years of Buddhism has done a lot for you yet. It has much to offer. So do most of the people in this forum. I would have been happy to answer your questions had you been willing to receive them. You seem to have a lot of problems with people not willing to give you the answers you seek. Perhaps the problem is in the way you are asking and not simply the questions you are asking. Tone is everything.
Fellow cult members, honoured guests, arhats and asshats,
As we all know our beloved chief troll killer has a tendency to protect us from advanced 'right speech' practitioners. As usual I plead that we keep a pet discourteous dharma wunder kinder to keep me company in the naughty corner.
I luvs trolls, (they taste of self righteous chicken). Sadly they usually find their wishes come true as an example of karma
Ah well. Bye @smarino you were more fun than a room full of zenniths with 'beginners mind' [allegedly] try treeleaf forum for your next teaching assignment.
Yours in the dharma hell realms,
lobster [cult of the unrepentant zenniths and troll catchers]
The OP as made their point...Perhaps we should just drop any personal attacks and let sleeping dogs lie...
I wish you well @smarino and may you find what it is you're looking for...
Metta
wow, this discussion board becomes weird when I go to sleep.
For what it's worth I didn't hear any sarcasm or criticism with @smarino 's question. I didn't find his posts absolute either. For the Shambala question, I heard uncertainty, curiosity, wariness and confusion. Chogyam Trungpa wasn't exactly a model for best behaviour.
@federica, I think you do an amazing job as moderator though I'm often very uncomfortable with the word 'smacks' as in 'it smacks of'. Can't quite put my finger on it. I feel the same way about 'I don't care what they think'. I must be finding some sort of association from my life to connect these words in the way I did.
I agree @Tiddlywinds, I also didn't think @Smarino's original post was way out of bounds. The question was perhaps not asked with the greatest respect, but my view is that we should have sufficient generosity of spirit to cope with a wee smidgen of off-colour writing. It is too easy to take such a leaning and misinterpret it as an attack, when in fact most of that attack is only in our own minds.
I have observed threads getting polarized, people suddenly taking umbrage and feeling attacked, do-gooding souls imparting lessons on Right Speech and metta to others in many threads lately -I have been absent for a year- so it seems to me that it's all a matter of how far the onslaught lands from someone's garden.
@Kerome, I like what you say.
Similar to when a person is in front of you, it's better to pause than react - if in doubt, hold back.
That said, I get caught up as much as anyone - it's hard not to get reactive. I guess the way I try to work around it is to think about what it is that's bothering me about what they say and wonder why - grist for my own mill rather than another's.
We're all in samsara - just different versions of it.
It is pretty funny, all things considered... @smarino's last post is a bit of a dharma-based egoic eruption, which is quite ironic in itself if you think of it. This is where the rubber meets the road and you get to find out how far you've truly come.
Thanks everyone for all contributions, in which ever way and with whichever opinion.
We reveal who we are, where we are and what we stand for, by what we say and don't say.
And I won't ban you @smarino, because duplicate accounts show themselves whichever IP number you try to use.
So feel free to re-join us (in a different guise) any time you wish. You have no idea of the number of duplicate accounts I've prevented from appearing.
Have a great day everyone.