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Zen Buddhism and Rebirth?
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"Meditation: A Portal to a New Dimension"
So in other words "we're making it up as we go along, but it makes us sound intelligent and as if we know what we're talking about...."
It's a bit of theory, not 'Theory'..... Gotcha.
It seems to be more along the lines of "it is a logical extension of this way of looking at the universe", so a reasoned part of one particular model which has some popularity but is not as widely accepted as the Standard Model.
But then the Standard Model works very well at small scales but still hasn't integrated gravity, which we know operates at big scales. The whole idea of a single unified model for the whole thing is still some distance away.
I'm sorry @Kerome, I'm just being a bit obstreperous because first of all, stuff like algebra (a + b = c/a over f times y divided by z to the power of h ) used to leave me a thumb-sucking gibbering wreck in maths class, and secondly, talk of strings, quarks and quantums means close to two parts of three-fifths of diddly-squat to this slightly unhinged brain....
I'm sure there's much more to what you say, but unless it's in "Oooh, look at all dem purdy lights!" terminology, no amount of expansion will do me any bit of good.....
Thanks @SpinyNorman for the link.
Buddhism has a scientific approach up to a point ... Rebirth evidence is ... lacking ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_science
My own nesting point:
"Reincarnation" is what happens in Hollywood.
"Rebirth" becomes apparent in actual-factual practice. Every breath is reborn of something that was never born and lives anew ... sort of. Saying "something" is of course saying too much ... much as saying anything about anything is likewise too much, in one sense.
In conversation, none of this makes much sense. In practice, a lot of zany wrinkles get ironed out.
Practice anyway.
Here's a web comic mocking some of this how people get ideas about science and kind of run with them. This comic is very often science related or philosophy related etc.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/science-communication
Where do the Zen folk stand on rebirth?
It's sort of where Zen folk don't stand, if that helps...somewhere in the void....
Above, not a tile to cover the head;
Below, not an inch of ground for the foot.
If we are able to dwell long enough in the here and now, we'll be reborn time and again every single moment.
Life renews itself with every new breath we take?
"We'll be reborn"? Who or what is reborn?
The conventional bundle of aggregates that I am in this samsaric stint.
Have you had enough neapolitan stuff, lately, @SpinyNorman?
You come across rather... needy lately...
The aggregates are transient and insubstantial, so how could they be "reborn"?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
How does disagreeing with you make me "needy"? What a strange and patronising comment for you to make.
I was being poetical, @SpinyNorman.
It is called poetical license.
Do you do some poetry now and then?
Drying up logical is not good for the aggregates...
I make lots of strange comments, why should that surprise you?
But "patronising" is usually your area of competence...
You call it "disagreeing, I call it "neurosis."
I continued to disagree, so now I am patronising and neurotic as well as needy? (sigh)
Please cut the lame ad hom attacks. It's a discussion forum, and people will disagree with your pronouncements from time to time.
@SpinyNorman just from a neutral point of view having read a few discussions recently where you were involved with @DhammaDragon , you seemed to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreement itself. Several people noted that you were not actually differing at all in one particular discussion but yet it seemed you became pedantic and the whole thing got bogged down in words and you preferred to continue to disagree than to actually recognise @DhammaDragon was making a very clear point which was perfectly backed up.
Why disagree for sake of disagreement? Seems such a waste of time.
Just an outsider perspective.
I refer to in particular the conversation "everything will be perfect when" where @DhammaDragon made a very clear, intelligent comment which made perfect sense but you seemed determined to disagree with it. Reading back over it several people spotted it and even commented that there was no disagreement. Discussion and difference of opinion is surely healthy. Disagreement for disagreement sake certainly is not.
In discussion forums people may disagree.
You simply throw in sophistic, demagogic comments without really developing much nor adding much to a discussion.
You just paste links.
And that's the last comment I'll adress to you, @SpinyNorman.
Thank you so much, @Hozan
This is pure projection on your part. You are the one who makes pronouncements and then can't cope with disagreement, you just resort to childish ad hom attacks. And you are one who does all the quote mining ( often without explaining relevance ), you seem to assume that long rambling posts are somehow more credible.
I don't think DhammaDragon was being at all clear, which is why I challenged and asked for clarification.
It was crystal clear to me I have to say.
Thats not true @SpinyNorman . You are being unfair. @DhammaDragon makes excellent contributions to this forum which are relevent, insightful and helpful.
I think maybe you need to look at your motivations for needing so badly to disagree
People in the forum agree and disagree all the time, @SpinyNorman.
You are the only one who brings down the level of discussions with your patronising attitude.
As to the projection comment, turn the mirror around to yourself.
Putting all the knowledge you seem to have into practice would do you and us all some service.
I rather like @genkaku reminder of the difference between the mysterious alleged reincarceration and remirth emptiness picture that @IronRabbit posted.
This strange attachment to others moment and our own detachment from flaws and sealings or floors and ceilings is a constant give away ...
What if you were borne into someones elses opinions? You would have to agree you were wrong. Ah the benefits of karma ...
http://web.archive.org/web/20030828015822/http://pages.britishlibrary.net/edjason/eight/
The Dharma patrol could argue that we cannot be born into opinions...
If we should give credit to the rebirth teachings, I guess we have haunted this samsaric stage long enough to have been our prisoner and our own executioner many, many times...
I think we all need to step back, take a breath and move on.
Thanks all.