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if everything were perfect...
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Dukkha'd if you do, dukkha'd if you don't....
What the suttas failed to add, is that some people can also be dukkha...?
If everything was perfect...
....Then what use, this thread....?
I would say he passed away 40 years earlier!
about perfect, zen and japan culture.they like robots.zeno,the omni king,the latest dragon ball series.the culture of refinement in the arts,culinary ,and social eticate.thi is based on tv learnin. the point? strive towards ease.
struggled like crazy when i started in therivda buddhism.so overwelming.wanted to do alot.but along the way learn some stuff.one insight ,anything new is a struggle but through practice,grit,joy,pain,i got better towards the goal of ease.now im chan-zen want-to be.such a poser.thats me!
i do enjoy the zen circle symbol.a life in full circle.one of my favorite saying is i dont know? my personal zen. why zen? i think the original poster is a zen practicioner.these are my stupd thoughts.he did ask for thoughts.
about dukkha,maybe a zen response,my idiot way,huh...ha....huh.on a serious note i like dharma dragon's comments about dukkha.my opinion about dragon's ,the sublime honor and protect the sacred-dharma
Yes, the metaphor is not without its romanticism and mysticism.
But then, the fact remains that...
"Now on that occasion the Blessed One, on emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, sat warming his back in the western sun.
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, massaged the Blessed One's limbs with his hand and said,
"It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body."
"That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. The complexion is no longer so clear & bright; the limbs are flabby & wrinkled; the back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in the faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body."
— SN XLVIII.41
"Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you — these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men.
"And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path. These, bhikkhus, are the teachings of which I have direct knowledge, which I have made known to you, and which you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men."
Then the Blessed One said to the bhikkhus: "So, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness. The time of the Tathagata's Parinibbana is near. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away." — DN 16
Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.
Then the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Emerging from that he entered the second jhana. Emerging from that, he entered the third... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the cessation of perception & feeling.
...
Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound. — DN 16
Anatta isn't a metaphor.
And because he was a Buddha, there was no dukkha in any of the above. That's why he can be called a Buddha to begin with. 
Reminds me of a story about Ajahn Chah.
I remember, instead, the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, @seeker242.
When Ananda was extremely despondent at the Buddha's approaching death, the Buddha adressed him this way:
As Ananda pleaded the Budhha to live on till the end of times, the Buddha once more said:
No-self, but also impermance and dukkha.
The stuff this samsaric life is made of...
I think the point is that when a person becomes enlightened, they are no longer living a samsaric life, regardless of when that body dies.
Of course it's true that what is born is impossible to not die. But it's also impossible for dukkha to continue when the cause for dukkha is no longer. The 5 aggregates continue, but dukkha does not. At least not for a Buddha 
And yet the 3rd Noble Truth clearly describes the cessation of dukkha. You seem to be saying that cessation of dukkha isn't possible? I'm not sure I get your distinction between "facts" and experience, isn't it all about experience?
There is a debate around when dukkha completely ceases, some say this occurs with the attainment of Nibbana ( enlightenment ), others say dukkha only completely ceases at death.
The "physical" aspects of dukkha are aging and death. So the question is whether aging and death would be dukkha for somebody who is enlightened.
Am i misreading you or you talk as if dukkha was just inherent to the five aggregates that make a conventional person?
Not to be affected by dukkha because through enlightenment or wisdom, we have extinguished the tanha that lies at the root of the way we relate to dukkha -how our personal tanha gives rise to self-inflicted dukkha- does not mean that the people around us and all compounded things, as in dukkha external to our five aggregates will not keep its course to decay.
It depends how you interpret the Arrow Sutta. Is the first arrow ( physical pain ) still dukkha for somebody who is enlightened? Unfortunately the Arrow Sutta is ambiguous on this point.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html
I never said dukkha did not cease.
Or rather, the facts that fall under the heading of dukkha do not affect a person who has attained a certain stage of spiritual development anymore, and through extinguishing of tanha, this person does not create more dukkha for himself either.
We cease to perpetuate the cycle of dukkha for us.
How do you explain cessation of dukkha, Spiny?
In the suttas there is a distinction between clinging aggregates and non-clinging aggregates.
Clinging aggregates = dukkha.
So it seems that clinging aggregates cease and non-clinging aggregates remain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html
It is all about experience and not.
An Enlightened being may not experience aging and death as dukkha.
But death and aging are still facts described as dukkha in common parlance.
You and your beloved beings will get ill, get old, pass away.
Those are facts.
If you are enlightened or have reached a state of equanimity, it may not affect you as "dukkha."
That's how you experience it.
Dukkha will have ceased for you.
But after your Enlightenment, the world will still keep its cycle towards decay.
If you tell me that your mother passes away, I will imagine that it is a fact that ellicits sadness, beyond the fact that either of us could look upon the fact with more or less attachment or equanimity.
Honestly, I don't see where what you write and I write differ so much.
It would seem logical that the enlightened have to some extent given up their bodies and exist in higher spaces. So I suspect aging and death are unlikely to be entirely the same.
Still Osho said that "living in his body had become torture" and his disciples should prepare for his departure, leaving strict instructions for his immediate cremation. And three days later he was gone.
So perhaps the signs point to them still feeling bodhily dukkha, just interpreting it differently.
I don't know in how many more words I can strive to explain that I meant something like this
@DhammaDragon you have explained yourself clearly and succinctly from the very beginning. It is perfectly clear
If we could dial down/reprogram our past, our future, our tendency to exist in our negative mind arisings ... what might happen?
Less dukkha? I think so.
At the moment we do this the best way available, dharma practice and meditation. It is quite natural and skilful to head towards:
Is our technology helping with that process? I think if handled skilfully the answer can and will be yes.
https://buddhismnow.com/2013/07/05/first-steps-buddhist-meditation/
Resuming with @genkaku's original question, it seems to me that it is not so much a matter of tending towards a notion of perfection, as much as, in the face of dukkha, tend towards a practice that renders our relationship with dukkha more bearable.
I am speaking for myself here, but it seems to me that our practice is motivated by a longing to find the way to suffer less, by seeing reality as objectively and defilement-free as we possibly can, from a higher standpoint and with the broadest viewpoint.
Yes, could be. With some insight into anatta there would not be such a strong sense of me and mine, in which case not such a strong sense of my body and my pain.
I think the point is if you're enlightened, you don't need to relate to dukkha, because there isn't any to relate to to begin with. Or, you can't be either affected by it or not affected by it, because it does not exist. You can't be unaffected by something that isn't there.
Some very subtle nuances going on ...
In one sense we empty to such an extent that the defilements are as much flawless as the attachment removal ... The naughty corner awaits the unrepentant and empty headed ...
However ... it is also important to acknowledge degrees of perfection, when polishing tiles or throwing them away ...
http://dogenandtheshobogenzo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/zazen-polishing-tile-to-make-mirror.html
Ay caramba! I am super rich ...
more thoughts on perfect,zen and dao.perhaps striving to hard for perfect can put to much pressure and stress on the brain.that's my experince anyway when i started out in buddhism. find that tunefull melody,as the buddha suggest.if to slack,no sound.if to tight might break.or something like that,in tuning a string instrument. that can be applied to practice,pressure and stress.now add technology to the mix.technology as an aide.usefull in making our lives easier.with any instrument,music or functional tool,how we respond to it is helpful.being perhaps aware technology evovle just as we evolve to meet our needs. but i try to remember balance,our tuneful melody with nature and technology.which leads to the twin sibling,imo,to zen--dao.both is the aspect of flow.for example.they may have in common the aime to abide with the seasons.perhaps,speculating on my part,go with the flow,perfect unfold?or what is appropiate for us individually.
We could debate all day as to what "Enlightenment" really means, @seeker242.
And in the suttas, the descriptions of the Buddha as an enlightened being range from the most logic to the most mythical.
But also according to the description in the suttas, birth is dukkha, illness is dukkha, old age is dukkha, pain and mental anguish are dukkha...
The Buddha lived many years after his Enlightenment and was in contact with dukkha as a fact.
His acquaintances got ill, got old, passed away, and so did he.
He may have developped a new way to relate to dukkha.
But he was still very much in the world and in contact with factical dukkha.
You can hardly be in this reality and not be attained by dukkha, even if it ceases to affect you the same way that it affects others.
When the Buddha mentions why he sets aside metaphysical speculation in favour of the teaching of the Four Noble Truths he explains that it is because this teaching leads to:
"disenchantment, detachment, the cessation of dukkha, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment and nibbana"
(M I 428-432)
Do you imply that you become enlightened and dukkha vanishes?
How do you explain the cessation of dukkha?
For people who are not Buddhas, yes that's the case. I'm only referring to a Buddha.
The Buddhas contact with Dukkha ended when he got enlightenment. His acquaintances getting ill isn't dukkha for him, it's just acquaintances getting ill. That's precisely why he can be called a Buddha, because even though there is death, there is no dukkha, at all, anywhere.
He didn't develop a new way to relate to it, he extinguished it completely.
Perhaps the discrepancy is that you are talking about him relating to other people's dukkha? If that's the case then we are talking about 2 different things!
Dukkha is dukkha.
How no dukkha anywhere?
Sunyata
Humans being humans would still find something to whinge and whine about
We're turning in circles here.
I still feel that as long as one remains physically in the world, beyond the personal insight you had -sunyata or whatever- that enabled you to attain Buddhahood, you may extinguish the causes for dukkha generation in you but there will still be dukkha all around you.
There's a fact and there's a personal experience.
I am trying to tackle Buddhahood or enlightenment as a state that is potentially within everyone's reach, and without much mysticism.
Either we are talking of the same thing, or not, and it's okay.
We may agree to disagree, or maybe at some point we are agreeing.
So then you are talking about other people's dukkha. I was never talking about other people, or other beings.
I was talking about both, @seeker242.
If you dwell in this world, there is no way you are not in contact with any faintest notion of dukkha.
It may have ceased for you by the way you interpret it.
But it is still out there.
A Buddha doesn't dwell in this world. A Buddha doesn't dwell anywhere!
Out there, in the minds of other beings, as it can't be anywhere else because it's dependently originated, not inherently existing.
So who is the persona that after his Enlightenment under the bodhi tree, taught about the Dharma and passed away in his eighties?
'Even so, Vaccha, any form by which one describing the Tathāgata would describe him: That the Tathāgata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathāgata is deep, boundless, hard-to-fathom, like the sea...
'Any feeling... Any perception... Any fabrication...
'Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathāgata would describe him: That the Tathāgata has abandoned... Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathāgata is deep, boundless, hard-to-fathom, like the sea.'
— MN 72
You are still describing a personal experience towards dukkha, attained after a certain spiritual progress, not the factual cessation of dukkha as a universal fact, @seeker242.
You view it one way.
I view it another.
We simply digress.
Oh yes he does. Oh no he doesn't etc ...
The Buddha is a bit fishy - I knew it all along ...
As we all know, even if sleeping or drowning, the awakened (Buddha) is homeless, even if having an address such as his first sermon in the deer park ...
We also know that the awakened is located by its absence of being ... just about anything.
Artificial Enlightenment (much harder than AI) will therefore require a 'computer' that is not turned off or on. In other words it resides in a permanent quantum state. Not only that, it will not have been switched on or be capable of being switched off.
... and now back to the future ...
You left out the last part, which is the most important part.
"Therefore, we decree that this (whole heap of dukkha) should be eliminated right now!"
No that's not the case.
Sure it is important and I never said we do not have to eliminate dukkha.
I left it out because I wanted to underline that part that states that no matter what you think, there'll still be dukkha.
And in the elimination, we can only go as far as how we relate to dukkha.
I will get enlightened but still get ill, get old and pass away, as did the Buddha and all the people that came before me and after me.
I do not agree with your point of view and you don't agree with mine.
But I already said that.
I have nothing more to add to you nor you to me.
Much metta to you.
I disagree! It's just a bag of bones that gets old. But that's not you, you're a Tathāgata, not a measly bag of bones. Metta
You have a very religious way to view the Buddha, @seeker242.
I always bear in mind that the Buddha was not a god, but a man who attained Enlightenement through human effort.
Moderator note:
Can we reserve the Tennis banter for Wimbledon week?
This discussion is getting insular and tedious.
It's become a simple game of back-and-forth, and as I have said before, if it gets to this stage - you, me, you, me - take it to PM.
Thanks.