Why there is no way back for religion in the West
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Came across this interesting "TEDTalk" from 2015...
The speaker makes some interesting points...Which got me thinking (well thought did)...
It would seem that for members here (I take it the majority are of Western origin) Buddhism is often seen along the lines of...
1) A Religion (a religious belief in the strictest sense of the term-with bells and whistles attached)
2) A Philosophy (a way to live ones everyday life)
3) Or I guess both (practising what is preached so to speak)
On a personal level I would say that I first saw Buddhism as a religion of sorts, however the deeper I delved into the Dharma practice the less religious it became (I guess the bells & whistles had helped to discipline/train/tame the mind) and the more of a way of life it became...(at first fettering the mind in order to unfetter the mind 
)
It would also seem that many people (again ...not all) in the West are attracted to Buddhism because of its more relaxed secular approach ie, don't just believe...explore ...see for your self...Perhaps it is because the Buddha left to door open wide which is why the Dharma discourses (Buddhism) comfortably and (more often than not) easily 'adapts' to the environment it finds itself in....
Just a thought...one of many that pay the mind a visit
How do you view Buddhism ?
Does it really matter to you if it is a religion or just a philosophy...way of life ?
Comments
The planet would have been better off without religion from the get-go. Religion's sucking tentacles have long manipulated medicine, war, politics, technology, racism and misogyny in a punitive and patriarchal lust for power, not to mention warping puny little human hearts and minds. I'm a big old loudmouth, swearing atheist and "whattya know", Buddhism, whether you call it a pyschology, philosophy or just a lot of sitting and nothing and chopping and carrying - is just alright with me, oh yeah!
I am an atheist/ buddhist. I meditate. Have to agree with you @IronRabbit , organised religion has done more harm then good. Buddhism sits well with my atheism. No conflict.
First, I don't think Buddhism has any whistles, only bells
Second, good question that has been on my mind plenty. I do think that most of what goes by the name of Buddhism, has undeniable elements of religion.
The process of rebirth or the permanent state of Nirvana are, in my mind, unprovable supernatural beliefs. Many Mahayana schools also have the notion of infallible teachers. That even goes for the most agnostic school of all, Zen, with its emphasis on mind-to-mind direct Dharma transmission. And, of course, numerous sects have elements of deity worship (often referred to as Boddhisatvas), such as chanting their names. Finally most schools have rituals that in essence are no different from those of other religions.
Of course, where Buddhism differs from other religions is that it is more about doing a practice rather than believing stuff, at least in the West. It is more about what you do than what you think. It has a method that you need to consistently apply to be a "Buddhist" in any meaningful sense.
It also teaches a particular attitude to life. (I do not like the word philosophy because it has the connotation of being abstract, whereas Buddhism in most renditions is not concerned with explaining the world "out there" but how to deal with one's actual life). In a nutshell: view stuff of life as transitory, transcend it and diminish suffering. In Mahayana, help others do the same.
As you can probably tell, I am no fan of religion, Buddhist or otherwise. If I embrace Buddhist religion, I feel that I have no good reason not to embrace my ancestoral religion of Christianity as well...Buddhist attitude and practice, on the other hand, I have found quite helpful even though I periodically have some doubts. Whether those aspects can be untied from the religious components is a big question for me and for many Western thinkers.
I feel that some teachers, including mine, are accomplishing just that. If those efforts coherently converge towards a purely secular form remains to be seen.
No because none of that has anything to do with cooking dinner, doing laundry, breathing in and out or helping your grandma.
The idea that Buddhism is a religion, is still just that, an idea. The idea that Buddhism is a philosophy, and not a religion, is still just an idea. The truth of reality, which is the whole point of Buddhism, isn't found in mere ideas about it. All of those ideas are completely arbitrary anyway, which means they don't have any truly existing significance to begin with.
You could say the Buddha taught the end of suffering and not a philosophy right? Didn't Buddha talk about 'taking views'? Could you say it is a philosophy if it is specified that it's not about views? I'm thinking of a particular Pali Canon sutra and this one cannot remember the name right now.
To me, Buddhism is a path because it's non- theistic. And while the atheist members are always going to be the most vocal when presented with a chance to kill two birds with one stone (define secular/western Buddhism, and usually quite well but 9/10 times having a dig at theism and blaming all the woes of the world on religion), there are members here that are theists and agnostic. It's really easy to forget that sometimes.
Apart from the usual anti theism sentiments, I agree with @Jeffrey and @seeker242
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@dhammachick
True Buddhism is a Non-Theistic Spiritual Path...Atheists Theists, Agnostics would all agree (well for the most part they would
).
However members are just 'expressing' what/how they 'personally' feel about Buddhism...just as you have expressed how you 'personally' feel about Atheists who practice Buddhism and Secular Buddhism...
It's important for us 'all' to 'try' to remain mindful ( not letting the mind become charmed by its own thoughts) by not taking things too personally (and I guess not too seriously too
)
@Shoshin you don't need all the "" . Your message is loud and clear dude.
I am an atheist Buddhist.
To me, Buddhism is a sort of self-help recipe to attain inner peace and find a way to cope more efficiently with the reality of impermanence and affliction.
As such, it is not very different from self-help methods Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, or Louise Hay have made mainstream in our days.
But in the times of the Buddha, the creation of a celibate brotherhood and the arrangement of his teachings into scriptures was more in fashion, and it is this what has rendered Buddhism so hard to pin with labels.
My feeling is that Buddhadhamma is complete and satisfying in itself as psychological panacea to all neurosis and cure to existential Angst.
I can't quite see why I would need to add a God variable to that, nor need to rely in a God.
But I suppose theistic followers of the path must have figured out a way to circumvene all seeming contradictions and paradoxes, since many people from different faiths embrace Buddhism as a complement to their own religious beliefs.
I tend to view it as a practical dancing to happiness psychology much as @DhammaDragon mentions
Dogma can bolster, restrict or be used for raft/book burning as required. The mind responds to ritual, temporary beliefs/knowing. Acccording to various depths of understanding or abandoment, elements of philosophy and religion have emotional reasurance and pragmatic models of support ...
OM MANI FESTO PEME GONE, GONE, GONE BEYONDER ...
http://www.insamadhi.com/clanki/gone-gone-beyond-anatta/
I view Buddhism as the guidance of ancient sages with many old and new interpretations and traditions. The discourses give accounts of sages who were not disciples of the Buddha, spoke to him once, then realized Nibbana. That to me is the heart of Buddhism. There is Nibbana. One who realizes Nibbana is a buddha. Buddhism is how one realized Nibbana and how that one might guide others to realize it for themselves.
Please don't interpret my post above the wrong way. I am an atheist/agnostic/buddhist. No conflicts. I cannot put it any better than @DhammaDragon post above.
I respect all religions and peoples right to follow them. At their core religions have a good message but human nature has caused many to be institutions of power and corruption. A few religions including creationists are dangerous and preach downright lies in the face of scientific evidence.
Whatever floats your boat is cool with me. I am totally tolerant and embracing of peoples diverse faiths and beliefs. I draw the line and have zero tolerance for lies, hate, corruption and abuse though. Unfortunately humans ( and mostly men it must be said) have turned many religious institutions into vehicles of power, wealth and corruption. Of course the core message in most of these relgions was already pure.
For me buddhism/atheism allows me to take personal responsibility for my life, my decisions, my behaviour, my health. The buck stops with me. That is empowering.
Buddhism was a miraculous Discovery for me, one that resembles a religion, but it isn't. I don't pay no never mind to the various religions and who believes in which one and why. Buddhism is about a man that treated life sort of like a boot camp, and made his way through the mud and mess, and came out with a philosophy (or whatever) that has helped shine the light for others to follow his path, if they wanted to. It's been exciting to read and to learn about him, and I can't begin to tell you how much it has meant to me.
I think the TED talk is interesting, because it does clearly show a decline of religious conviction which goes along with modernisation. In some ways it’s probably a good thing - I believe we don’t really need the Abrahamic religions, and many religions have done a lot of damage down the years.
But at the same time is the outlook really rosier for buddhism? It’s not as strictly a religion but if you look for instance at Japan there is a noticeable decline in Buddhist faithful as well as Shinto adherents as the country has moved through modern post war generations. You might expect to see the same thing in India, Thailand, and so on in another 50 years.
I do think there is room for the descendants of buddhism in western society: look at mindfulness, the search for happiness, yoga, NDE literature and those kinds of disciplines. They are religious practices without the religions, aimed at solving the same life problems that used to be tackled by religions.
It's not what it is, that matters.
It's what you do with it, that matters.
Less talk. More do.
Well said.
I'd say I'm more agnostic than atheistic except when it comes to the Abrahamic religions. I don't mean to knock them but I end up doing so because of the harm they have done and the lack of morality in the Torah. I don't like hurting other people's feelings and often that happens but it's a small price to pay in the face of the horrid abuse that has been perpetrated in the guise of some screwed up deitys will.
Go figure as we grow we shed this stuff.
Some sects have overcome the perversion and violence in the texts but should they have really had to?
Oh, sorry... did I type that out loud?
Remind me again, is this thread about whether Buddhism is or is not a religion? It's a bit fuzzy.
One might argue that pissing off and wandering the forests and countryside, leaving his wife and child in the name of enlightenment was a dog act too.......
After further reflection I realized that how I might categorize Buddhism is irrelevant. I’m not a Buddhist. I’m a Texan. In the state of Texas we have a problem. No other creature respects our borders. They act as if our borders don’t even exist, as if tens of millions of people are caught up in some mass delusion.
Other creatures are just crazy. They’re dumb, deluded. They can’t understand the truth.
Doesn’t matter. I’m not a Texan. I’m an American. In the country of the United States of America we have a problem. No other creature respects our borders. They act as if our borders don’t even exist, as if hundreds of millions, nay billions, of people are caught up in some mass delusion.
Other creatures are just crazy. They’re dumb, deluded. They can’t understand the truth.
Doesn’t matter. I’m not an American. I’m a human. As a human I have a problem. No other creature respects this evident and absolutely undeniable fact of reality. They act as if this reality doesn’t exist, as if I and billions of other humans, are caught up in some mass delusion.
Other creatures are just crazy. They’re dumb, deluded. They can’t understand the truth. Only humans can. That is an evident and absolutely undeniable fact of reality. The reason only humans can understand reality is because all other creatures are just dumb. Humans are the only ones smart enough to understand reality.
Of course, some people are crazy. The problem with crazy people is they don’t know they’re crazy. But their beliefs can be so bizarre it’s not at all impossible to show them how crazy they are.
Recently, the Dear Leader informed the world he has a button. Then, the U.S. President informed the world his button is bigger.
The problem with normal people is they don’t know they’re crazy. And their beliefs are so normal that it’s next to impossible to show them how crazy they are.
Could you please clarify, @Snakeskin , how the above replies to the questions posed in post 1:
It's distinctly off-topic. More political than pertinent.
I'm drumming down on O/T posts.
Nothing personal.
I wouldn't take a moderator moderating personally.
The OP ask how one categorizes Buddhism, as a religion, a philosophy, a way of life, or something else. My post speaks to the divisiveness and unreality of categories only real to humans and the danger they entail between us. As other posters have noted, religion is responsible for.... No, it's not. People and our views are. Religion, philosophy and Buddhism are abstract realities no more concrete than the state of Texas. But the consequences of these views can be very real.
If a moderator deems that off-topic, it's off-topic.
No, thanks, I'll take it.
What is religion if not people and views? Take the people and views away and what is left of religion?
I'm kind of sick of that argument.
No other kind of ideology plays on our ignorance and fear of death than good old religion.
You can say that again. Just look at the residential schools here in Canada built by religious nutjobs to purge the original settlers of their heritage and spirituality. Oh there have been apologies but that doesn't bring peoples children back from the kettles does it?
Sorry but until you can show me a few suttas where it talks of the benefits of violence and perversion any comparison in that regard to the Abrahamic religions is moot.
Why stop at Abrahamic religions @David ? The Baghavad Gita takes place on a battlefield. Or maybe this thread is just an excuse to take out some frustration.
Oh, did I just type that out loud?
I actually have not had the chance to view the TED talk linked in the first post, so to be honest, in my obvious ignorance, I'm not sure what the title of the thread has to do with the gist of the first post. I'm sure there is a connection, and I shall be sure to see it when I view the talk.
However, I have to say, I do see @dhammachick's point. Taking the first post in context, there is no mention of theistic religions therein, and the content does ask members specific questions concerning Buddhism.
I think it appropriate at this point -
Moderator comment:
Firstly: Where is the voice that comes to defend them?
And secondly, how pure and Buddhist are we that we ourselves do not merit some responsorial critique?
From my perspective the o/p is obviously asking if we figure Buddhism could be lumped in with the rest of the religions even as some do not consider it as such.
I couldn't tell you what this thread is an excuse for but my guess is to talk about the topic.
The Baghavad Gita does indeed take place on a battlefield and Krishna is telling Arjuna why self defense can be a justifiable reason to kill our fellow humans.
It does not glorify violence in any way and no perversion either that I recall.
@federica, the o/p is about the fall of religion. I don't know what you expect to be discussed but I also do not walk on egg shells.
If they weren't on the floor it would help.
I'll bow out of the thread for now then.
Ok, @David.
I shall take the soonest available moment top view the video.
But my concern still stands.
Many of us have come to Buddhism after either having belonged to a theistic religion, and changing our minds, or because we shunned and dismissed one from the beginning. I would add that there are those among us - and I must include myself - who still feel a certain affiliation with the Religion we were born into, and do not have so much a love/hate relationship with it, as an ingrained connection, often laced with affection (begrudging or otherwise).
So I really would like to discourage the kind of discussions that pour scorn, derision or even criticism on religions which others - both seen and unseen - feel a connection with.
It is...'unsporting' and often un-called for.
Let's all try please, to use our attitudes skifully.
Thanks.
@David, wait!
I wasn’t comparing abstract realities but throwing them all in the same bucket. All of them. That is, when @Shoshin says “Why there is no way back for religion in the west”, I say “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.” When we speak of the old world views of religion and the new world views of secularism, I say “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.” Based on the handful of months I’ve been here, I’d say he and I, you and I are all pointing to the same thing. Yet, we still manage to agree and disagree. How is that possible? Views. That’s the only way. My views have changed multiple times over my lifetime. My views change throughout the day. There are also times where I think I’ve transcended them. “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.”
Reread the Dutthatthaka Sutta. It’s a short one.
That sutta describes a person who, I think, isn’t religious, secular or Buddhist, who knows, as the Uraga Sutta says, “This is all unreal.” I can run with that. Is it religion, philosophy, truth? “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.”
I refuse to be skilful about creationists, scientologists or other groups that preach hate and misinformation.
You may say what you like about them. I merely ask that ~you~ (generic, not specific) exercise Compassion and Loving Kindness when doing so. It takes more personal discipline and consideration, but is character-forming. And good for us.
After all, they're 2 of the Sublime States. The least we can do is try.
I consider the Bhagavaad Gita profound. I have found value in all three Abrahamic religions. Though I cherry pick. Which of course we dharma fanists do too ...
We are in this sense, following whatever we make Buddhist dharma to be. Anything from an occasional hobby to a complete way ... just as with all other ways ...
Sadly judging by some comments, it (so it would seem)does matter ....And some members feel quite strongly about it...
To reiterate....
"On a personal level I would say that I first saw Buddhism as a religion of sorts, however the deeper I delved into the Dharma practice the less religious it became (I guess the bells & whistles had helped to discipline/train/tame the mind) and the more of a way of life it became...(at first fettering the mind in order to unfetter the mind"
The speaker in the TEDTalk made some interesting points about the decline of religious belief...He wasn't bashing religion just pointing out why it seems to be declining....
Buddhism is for the most part (more often than not) seen as a 'religion' especially by Western media...
However The Dalai Lama also makes some interesting points in his book "Beyond Religion" (check out the link and click on the "Listen" icon on the left under the book image to hear some of what The Dalai Lama has to say)
As I have not yet been able to watch the video, I'm grateful for the distinction, @Shoshin , which actually complements my points.
To be honest, you can't say that you didn't know that would be a strong possible outcome. It's not like this hasn't happened before.
For myself in this thread, I'm not impressed with the tone or posts of people (including myself and my reaction to baiting from some people). As a result, your post and the ensuing reactions have given me lots of thinking and I have come to the conclusion that I need to step away from the Sangha here temporarily and re-assess things.
To put it in perspective (lest someone accuses me of being a drama queen) - all my school life I was bullied for my height (I'm a short arse now at 5 foot nothing, but I was tiny at school) and later at high-school for my singing and performing. And not just the usual bullying, I mean taunted on and off the school premises, I was literally a moving target for some older students. So much so that my father ended up driving me the four streets away to school
Anyway, fast forward to my twenties and I decided that I would never stay silent if I saw bullying of anyone else because the feeling of complete shittiness never leaves. A few select replies here triggered me and I took (and still do take) umbrage at the open denigration of theists and theism I see here. Not because I'm agnostic, but because it's openly hostile and hateful to a group of people that are different from the vocal majority who post. Now, I don't know what's going on lately, but some posts on the forum are decidedly non-Buddhist and neither are the replies (again, I include myself in this). I don't like it, I don't like how I'm reacting to it and to put it another way - I don't know what's in the water, but I don't want to drink it anymore. Engaging in threads like this and the replies in this thread are not encompassing metta or any of the Noble Eightfold Path in any way whatsoever. And given I appear to be very much in the minority here in regards to views on theism and theists, I have noted that and will withdraw to consider not only why I was triggered, but if indeed Buddhism is the path I wish to stay on.
Be well and be kind, to yourselves and others.
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Yes; I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if we continue having threads where it seems likely that careless and unskilful talk will ensue, I will either close, or even in extreme situations, dump the thread without warning.
Other than this warning here, that is.
Anger
and rage happen.
If we don't get to observe ourselves in the act of unskillful thoughts and words, how will we ever catch that drift? I think Buddhists and Buddhist-leaning folks can forgive ALL. Fwiw.
I agree, @silver; but there's a different sense of anger in those who have an affiliation with another religion, than that of those who are confirmed atheists who pick holes and find cause to criticise, with no deep rooting in any other calling.
I do tend to get uppity sometimes, lol. I'm glad you can laugh and respond in the spirit I try to engage in. Often times here I say what offends me and people get offended. I'll have to stop expressing certain things.
I do see what you're saying but since it seems like science is the new boss, it just isn't the same boss as religion, lol.
It does bug me when people say not to blame the religion for the atrocities committed by followers of the religion especially when the actual holy texts have it as a matter of course for all to see.
@federica, as @Shoshin rightly says, the Tedtalk didn't go into the atrocities nor did it bash religion. All I did (unskillfully) was point out that another reason is because we are more aware of said atrocities.
@dhammachick, sorry for some reason I tend to say the wrong stuff in your eyes but I got nothing but love for you, I promise.
The winds have knocked out the power I'm having to use my smart phone data... So I can't really post much... Oh well shit happens.... However @dhammachick sorry that you have found some posts on the thread disturbing... Perhaps it's nearing time for @federica to close the thread so as to stop anymore discomfort...
Do I get the last word?!
I saw that phrase, but it got buried in my thoughts. Admittedly, I read between the ... into the lines, into the lines.
Either way indicates it does matter to me.
I still have vices. If my views are right views, it seems to me I should not have those vices at this point. So, for the past couple years, I’ve been trying to conform my beliefs to those in the discourses instead of the other way around. I’m starting to get good at it, but I still have vices, so it matters, but really only to me.
I’ll watch the video now. First, I have to feed the dogs. Then I’ll watch the video.
I have found the Dharma permeates all aspects of life, be it in relation to topics on spiritual practice or general banter... Being mindful of what one posts and equally mindful of how one reacts /takes in what is posted by others, is in my mind all part and parcel of one's Dharma practice, especially for those of us who have been involved with Buddhism for some time .However even then it can be a challenge avoiding the charms/temptations of our somewhat conditioned mind...
Thanks for the nod to close the thread, @Shoshin and yes, I think now would be a good time.
@shadowleaver ? No, you don't.
Thank you everyone. It's been....interesting.