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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited January 2019
Every time a subject like this comes up it gets ruined for the 5th precept. Gods forbid we talk about the 1st though, eh?
About as biased as anyone would sound if they had someone in front of them absolutely, categorically, emphatically and stubbornly insisting that Santa Claus exists.
No. Just because you have pull here doesn't mean you are always right and you are wrong here, sorry. You don't want to talk about it, fine. The topic gets drowned out for moralism. Lets not pretend it's anything else.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@David said:
Every time a subject like this comes up it gets ruined for the 5th precept. Gods forbid we talk about the 1st though, eh?
The first one covers all the others, and states that one shouldn't do harm, so taking that in the context of the discussion, I think it covers all the bases of harm, to others and to ourselves, regarding the use of substances...
No. Just because you have pull here doesn't mean you are always right and you are wrong here.
Please don't try to use my Mod status against anything I have to say. I keep the two factors entirely separate, and for you to try to use that against me, as if I have privileges in posting what I want, when I want and doing what I want, just makes you look like a jerk, because you know damn well, as well as anyone else here, that I don't do that.
There is no right or wrong here, and I have tried to make that repeatedly clear. There is opinion, and you obviously feel strongly enough about yours to make idiotic comments like that one.
What you want to do with your life, and how you deal with your health, is your choice, I frankly don't give a damn. But don't piss up my leg and tell me it's raining. Cannabis alters the mind-set. Just as any other recreational substance does. Degrees don't concern me. The fact that it's a substance that is still illegal in many parts of the world, tells me I may have some foundation for thinking that.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
But... but... but...
Hhhh... Ok, I know when I'm beat. I'm just going to hang my head in the corner.
I'll save you a spot for when you sequester yourself next @lobster.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Lol in a nice way, JFYI.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@David said:
Every time a subject like this comes up it gets ruined for the 5th precept. Gods forbid we talk about the 1st though, eh?
The first one covers all the others, and states that one shouldn't do harm, so taking that in the context of the discussion, I think it covers all the bases of harm, to others and to ourselves, regarding the use of substances...
Just to return to the OP, the question of doing harm doesn’t necessarily make a case against psychedelics as a part of practice. If you choose to radically alter the way you think for a short while in order to gain insight, there is a legitimate question as to whether that constitutes harm of any kind.
In a way I’d say marijuana was somewhat closer to being an intoxicant as mentioned by the 5th precept than a psychedelic like Ayahuasca, if you look purely at the effects of the drug. Although i’ll happily admit that both alter the way the brain experiences the world in a fashion.
But I think the worldwide ban on psychedelics and some other substances is very over sold. Quite a few of them like marijuana are relatively harmless when used in moderation, and it’s mostly a very uptight anti-drug regime which kept these things off the table.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I understand there is an global argument for the legalisation of cannabis for personal use. I can certainly see the advantages on many levels, although my own personal opinion on its use with regard to Buddhism, specifically, remains unchanged.
@federica said:
I understand there is an global argument for the legalisation of cannabis for personal use. I can certainly see the advantages on many levels, although my own personal opinion on its use with regard to Buddhism, specifically, remains unchanged.
This pretty much sums up my view too. Wanna toke, drop acid or visit a shaman and take psychedelics? Go for it, it's your body and your right. But when it comes to Buddhism, they go against the 5th precept as intoxicants shrugs as does alcohol. I just wish the pro camp would see that and not gloss over it. And yes, I agree with David (as I stated in my original post) that I believe prescription meds like codeine are also intoxicants. However, the difference between recreational and necessity do colour their "acceptance" in regards to the 5th precept.
Again, I reiterate this is my opinion lest I face the firing squad yet again due to some reading between the lines things that are not there.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Everyone is stating an opinion, @Kundo, and that makes it easier to cope when we can muse upon our own, and understand that simply because there are disagreements, it doesn't mean that one is right the other wrong. We all look at the same diamond, but we all see different colours....
@David said:
Every time a subject like this comes up it gets ruined for the 5th precept. Gods forbid we talk about the 1st though, eh?
The first one covers all the others, and states that one shouldn't do harm, so taking that in the context of the discussion, I think it covers all the bases of harm, to others and to ourselves, regarding the use of substances...
Just to return to the OP, the question of doing harm doesn’t necessarily make a case against psychedelics as a part of practice. If you choose to radically alter the way you think for a short while in order to gain insight, there is a legitimate question as to whether that constitutes harm of any kind.
In a way I’d say marijuana was somewhat closer to being an intoxicant as mentioned by the 5th precept than a psychedelic like Ayahuasca, if you look purely at the effects of the drug. Although i’ll happily admit that both alter the way the brain experiences the world in a fashion.
But I think the worldwide ban on psychedelics and some other substances is very over sold. Quite a few of them like marijuana are relatively harmless when used in moderation, and it’s mostly a very uptight anti-drug regime which kept these things off the table.
i would say my very few LSD experiences were pretty harmless. you come up, you come down and you're the same person on either side. i struggle to see the level of "harm" there. i probably done myself more damage with the cake i scoffed last night before bed.
my drug days are decades behind me. i don't even drink these days. but i do believe that if everyone in the world took MDMA once, just once, the world would be a better place.
@SE25Wall said:
i probably done myself more damage with the cake i scoffed last night before bed.
Try to ween yourself on to mindful scoffing, cake porn, if you really want it - make it. You will eat what you buy. So mindful, restrained shopping ideally ...
Go shopping on a bingeful stomach [lobster top tip]. Use the guilt to buy nutrition/medicinal food ...
... and now back to the psyche delia smith and other fractals ...
and finally coming down to the wheels ...
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SE25Wall ... "I would say"..... "L believe..." With no tangible, verifiable evidence, your assumptions are merely personal reflections and opinions, but you must understand that whatever first-hand experience you might have, newbuddhist will never condone, approve or encourage drug-taking, either once, by experimentation, or habitually, which can, with repeated use of some substances, lead to addiction.
As far as I am concerned, your being here is testimony to your light-handed approach, or your being one of the lucky few.
Ultimately, there's nothing remotely glamorous about drug-taking, or attractive about an addict.
I object to the term "hallucinogen" when it comes to certain psychedelic substances because the word implies seeing things that are not there.
I met a doctor who treats addiction and has used ayahuasca to successfully treat alcohol and heroine addicts. The doctor believes that addiction is caused by adverse childhood experience and that the guided ayahuasca experience can help people, who are suffering from the repercussions of the adverse experience, unlock and come to terms with it. The doctor is a practicing Buddhist.
I think drugs like LSD actually remove some of the filters through which we view the world and, as a result, we see more of what is actually there. The filters were necessary to our survival on a primitive level so we could stay focused on a few things rather than be overwhelmed by the many things that are going on around us.
That being said, the LSD experience can show us that there is more going on than we thought - show us that there is something 'behind the door' so to speak - but it is up to us to investigate what is behind the door on our own and that investigation is best done with a clear mind.
As an example of this type of experience... I did not know the potential of a grand piano until I went to a Glenn Gould concert when I was six years old. Once my mind and emotions were awakened to that potential, I dedicated much my life to learning the instrument.
note there were no drugs whatsoever involved in my being inspired to play the piano by the Glenn Gould experience.
I was a hippy in the last 1960's. And had been meditating since childhood (Mom had been a student of Yogananda). I tried it ALL, but nothing came close to a good meditation.
And, specifically, noting about psychedelics is related to the opening up of a good meditation.
Speaking of trippy....A while back I bought this polka dot top ( from the Op shop) and when I started to wear it I was getting strange reactions from some people ...The colours were so it would seem... messing with their minds ....
This reaction was not intentional on my part...I just liked the red dots on blue background....But it would seem that this combination was forcing some people's minds to try and blend the two colours.... "Trippy"
BTW @lobster that cushion is like a flying saucer...where one could travel to the far reaches of the mind.....I want one
Comments
Every time a subject like this comes up it gets ruined for the 5th precept. Gods forbid we talk about the 1st though, eh?
No. Just because you have pull here doesn't mean you are always right and you are wrong here, sorry. You don't want to talk about it, fine. The topic gets drowned out for moralism. Lets not pretend it's anything else.
The first one covers all the others, and states that one shouldn't do harm, so taking that in the context of the discussion, I think it covers all the bases of harm, to others and to ourselves, regarding the use of substances...
Please don't try to use my Mod status against anything I have to say. I keep the two factors entirely separate, and for you to try to use that against me, as if I have privileges in posting what I want, when I want and doing what I want, just makes you look like a jerk, because you know damn well, as well as anyone else here, that I don't do that.
There is no right or wrong here, and I have tried to make that repeatedly clear. There is opinion, and you obviously feel strongly enough about yours to make idiotic comments like that one.
What you want to do with your life, and how you deal with your health, is your choice, I frankly don't give a damn. But don't piss up my leg and tell me it's raining. Cannabis alters the mind-set. Just as any other recreational substance does. Degrees don't concern me. The fact that it's a substance that is still illegal in many parts of the world, tells me I may have some foundation for thinking that.
But... but... but...
Hhhh... Ok, I know when I'm beat. I'm just going to hang my head in the corner.
I'll save you a spot for when you sequester yourself next @lobster.
Lol in a nice way, JFYI.
Just to return to the OP, the question of doing harm doesn’t necessarily make a case against psychedelics as a part of practice. If you choose to radically alter the way you think for a short while in order to gain insight, there is a legitimate question as to whether that constitutes harm of any kind.
In a way I’d say marijuana was somewhat closer to being an intoxicant as mentioned by the 5th precept than a psychedelic like Ayahuasca, if you look purely at the effects of the drug. Although i’ll happily admit that both alter the way the brain experiences the world in a fashion.
But I think the worldwide ban on psychedelics and some other substances is very over sold. Quite a few of them like marijuana are relatively harmless when used in moderation, and it’s mostly a very uptight anti-drug regime which kept these things off the table.
I understand there is an global argument for the legalisation of cannabis for personal use. I can certainly see the advantages on many levels, although my own personal opinion on its use with regard to Buddhism, specifically, remains unchanged.
This pretty much sums up my view too. Wanna toke, drop acid or visit a shaman and take psychedelics? Go for it, it's your body and your right. But when it comes to Buddhism, they go against the 5th precept as intoxicants shrugs as does alcohol. I just wish the pro camp would see that and not gloss over it. And yes, I agree with David (as I stated in my original post) that I believe prescription meds like codeine are also intoxicants. However, the difference between recreational and necessity do colour their "acceptance" in regards to the 5th precept.
Again, I reiterate this is my opinion lest I face the firing squad yet again due to some reading between the lines things that are not there.
Everyone is stating an opinion, @Kundo, and that makes it easier to cope when we can muse upon our own, and understand that simply because there are disagreements, it doesn't mean that one is right the other wrong. We all look at the same diamond, but we all see different colours....
i would say my very few LSD experiences were pretty harmless. you come up, you come down and you're the same person on either side. i struggle to see the level of "harm" there. i probably done myself more damage with the cake i scoffed last night before bed.
imagine the drop in the crime rate if drugs were legalised.
my drug days are decades behind me. i don't even drink these days. but i do believe that if everyone in the world took MDMA once, just once, the world would be a better place.
Try to ween yourself on to mindful scoffing, cake porn, if you really want it - make it. You will eat what you buy. So mindful, restrained shopping ideally ...
Go shopping on a bingeful stomach [lobster top tip]. Use the guilt to buy nutrition/medicinal food ...
... and now back to the psyche delia smith and other fractals ...
and finally coming down to the wheels ...
@SE25Wall ... "I would say"..... "L believe..." With no tangible, verifiable evidence, your assumptions are merely personal reflections and opinions, but you must understand that whatever first-hand experience you might have, newbuddhist will never condone, approve or encourage drug-taking, either once, by experimentation, or habitually, which can, with repeated use of some substances, lead to addiction.
As far as I am concerned, your being here is testimony to your light-handed approach, or your being one of the lucky few.
Ultimately, there's nothing remotely glamorous about drug-taking, or attractive about an addict.
I object to the term "hallucinogen" when it comes to certain psychedelic substances because the word implies seeing things that are not there.
I met a doctor who treats addiction and has used ayahuasca to successfully treat alcohol and heroine addicts. The doctor believes that addiction is caused by adverse childhood experience and that the guided ayahuasca experience can help people, who are suffering from the repercussions of the adverse experience, unlock and come to terms with it. The doctor is a practicing Buddhist.
I think drugs like LSD actually remove some of the filters through which we view the world and, as a result, we see more of what is actually there. The filters were necessary to our survival on a primitive level so we could stay focused on a few things rather than be overwhelmed by the many things that are going on around us.
That being said, the LSD experience can show us that there is more going on than we thought - show us that there is something 'behind the door' so to speak - but it is up to us to investigate what is behind the door on our own and that investigation is best done with a clear mind.
As an example of this type of experience... I did not know the potential of a grand piano until I went to a Glenn Gould concert when I was six years old. Once my mind and emotions were awakened to that potential, I dedicated much my life to learning the instrument.
note there were no drugs whatsoever involved in my being inspired to play the piano by the Glenn Gould experience.
I was a hippy in the last 1960's. And had been meditating since childhood (Mom had been a student of Yogananda). I tried it ALL, but nothing came close to a good meditation.
And, specifically, noting about psychedelics is related to the opening up of a good meditation.
Exactly @FoibleFull
Done that, tried that. Have cushion. Will sit for Now, no medicinal psychedelics required ...
Wow @lobster ...that cushion is quite trippy
(I thought much the same about that eye meme/Gif you posted elsewhere....)
Speaking of trippy....A while back I bought this polka dot top ( from the Op shop) and when I started to wear it I was getting strange reactions from some people ...The colours were so it would seem... messing with their minds ....
This reaction was not intentional on my part...I just liked the red dots on blue background....But it would seem that this combination was forcing some people's minds to try and blend the two colours.... "Trippy"
BTW @lobster that cushion is like a flying saucer...where one could travel to the far reaches of the mind.....I want one
Some people draw Tara mandalas for their sacred space. Or use an ornate cushion.
... might be time for me to get out my crayons and mindfully create something ...
Challenge accepted.
Iz plan.
There are fish motifs in that cushion!