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Vegan Point of View.
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This discussion was created from comments split from: Natural medicine.
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Living in the Western world, the diet and the sources of the food can be seen as 'unethical' . Would you say eating anything other than a Vegan diet in the Western world is not truly exercising compassion throughout all aspects to your life? I understand that not everybody in the West eats from the same source, but the majority do.
I myself have been Vegan for one year so far simply due to the suffering I see that is inflicted on the animals, I am not a militant activist that shames anyone for their choices. But I would out forward the notion that being Vegan is a more compassionate lifestyle to one that eats meat and diary weekly.
Would all Buddhists in the Western world today be Vegan?
Welcome to newbuddhist,
fresh meat is always welcome (oops)
No. It is left up to the individual.
As a wer-lobster it is my sacred duty to eat fish. Veganism on compassionate grounds is excellent but not to everyones taste.
And I was just about to say that I discovered this wonderful combination of naturel kwark and flavoured full-cream yoghurt.
I very rarely eat meat but doing without dairy would be difficult. Cheese is just so yum!
The Buddha himself did not dictate that all people should refrain from eating meat. There is some argument that he was a meat-eater himself, although admittedly this is difficult to prove either way.
As @lobster says, every person can and should decide for themselves after evaluating every factor. If you choose to be vegan, I am happy for you, and that is your choice.
I am not vegan, am quite happy, and that is MY choice.
I completely agree that it's down to the individual ? there are not any rules to living by Buddhas teachings so I understand what you mean.
But did Buddha say or put across that all life may be delivered from suffering, having compassion for all beings, whether you see them or cannot. Surely if you eat meat in the western world and still in a large part of the Eastern world, you're adding to the suffering of beings that would rather evade it?
In Buddhas time, the world was very different and eating meat would be from a local source of animals at that point who would've been roaming free, un-modified, as natural as they come.
I'm not trying to point any fingers here, I'm just looking for your perspectives that's all ?️
https://storiesofmullanasrudin.wordpress.com/category/story/
... and now back to live saving fish
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/13-benefits-of-fish-oil
Personally I found omega oils can be obtained in vegan format which are more in keeping with my 'be kind to fish' attempts. They can also be found in chia seeds. It is worth looking out for superfoods. They can be faddy but some I like are:
Hmmm.... I think perhaps you might be, a little...
You got mine.
I totally agree. Modern industrial farming in the West is horrific and bears no comparison to animals reared for food in the Buddha's time. Compassion and modern day ethics can only point towards veganism. Not keen on consuming all those antibiotics and growth hormones either. Given how much choice we have nowadays is an easy thing to do. A healthy diet is the basis of both mental and physical health, cutting right back on sugar and processed foods, as much varied veg and possible, lots of ginger, turmeric and healthy fats.
I'd just like to know what vegans would do with all the animals that are not going into the food chain, and how exactly you would compensate all the farmers and those involved in the industry.
If you'd like a finite solution, you have to consider all the quasi-infinite parameters, don't you...?
So where in a vegan diet would you get a good amount of healthy fats? Lots of avocado’s maybe but for the rest I see lots of carb sources but not a lot of protein or fat.
There are three elements to nutrition: Carbohydrates, fats and protein. It has been proven that of the three, Carbohydrates are absolutely redundant and unnecessary, although you will always eat complex carbs through some vegetables and nuts... The two essentials are proteins and healthy fats.
It is sad than there are many vegans who for the very best of intentions forego some nutrient essentials in order to adhere to a diet which they feel is both justified and correct, and who, as a consequence, do not do adequate research in order to ensure that they still maintain a healthy and balanced intake.
While some vegans flourish and maintain their general health, there are sadly far too many more who suffer the consequences of not intaking adequate and essential nutrient substitutes or supplements, believing that they can gain everything they need from a purely vegan diet.
I can off the top of my head think of 3 vegans I know (and love) personally, ALL of whom suffered ill-health as a result of insisting on a vegan diet.
I am a healthy, fit sexgenarian who has over the years, tried different and varied approaches to diets and regimens, (Vegan, vegetarian, lacto/ovo-vegetarian and omnivore) and I have found the one that best suits my physique, lifestyle, health, well-being and continued positive progress.
Basically, if I can't maintain my own optimum health, I'm no good to anyone.
Plenty of protein to be had from veg like broccoli, in lentils and other legumes, nuts flax seeds ext for oils. I've been fully vegan over a year and never been healthier. The same tired arguments are always rolled out regarding nutrition, that protein only comes from animal sources, checkout The Happy Pear on Instagram and FB for some inspirational food and totally healthy bodies. Personally I can see no correlation between compassion and some justifying the cruelty involved in the product. It's just another craving/addiction. The manufacture of the product gets more inhumane as demand grows sadly. We can all make personal choices, that doesn't mean they are ethical or compassionate to our fellow sentient beings.
With regard to all of the animals currently in the system, it wouldn't be that many years before they are consumed, there are already countless millions of male animals killed every year because the are not productive, ie no eggs or milk. That's without going down the route of damage to the environment. There also lots of companies producing vegan meat replacement, not my cup of tea but plenty of people are converting. I think the next decade will see a massive move away from animal products for ethical, health and environment reasons. ?
If they can produce meat in a lab, or a substitute that is indistinguishable from the 'real thing' I'd be all for it.
Let me just pre-empt what I am about to say with a "I don't think it's happening here"...
.... but I think one thing that gets to an awful lot of people about Vegans/Vegetarians, is the judgemental drum-banging 'blaming and shaming' attitude. If there's anything that will convince a dedicated omnivore to continue being one, it's being beaten around the head by the sanctimonious, superior holier-than-thou attitude of some vegans, whose sole aim in advocating their lifestyle, is to deliberately make others feel uncomfortable and contemptible.
I used to be the Manager of an Italian Bistro/Delicatessen, and had to have a Vegan diner removed by the Shopping Centre's Security Personnel, because every time a random customer's order arrived from the Kitchen, that contained a meat or animal ingredient, she would turn to that customer, state loudly and clearly that "Meat is Murder" and berate them for their choice, asking them "How can you sit there and eat that?!"
At the time, I was a vegetarian. But her attitude was completely unacceptable.
For sure and I would never rant rave in a restaurant , but in the context of a Buddhist forum the kindness and compassion element really confuses me, I can't work out how they are compatible. One thing I've found to be a huge benefit is giving up dairy, keep eat meat if that's your thing, but any sinus, allergy, stomach issues really benefit from non dairy, and the the dairy industry seems more cruel than meat industry.
Conditioning has a lot to do with the choice of food one eats...It's been hard-wired into the brain and re-wiring the brain is not an easy task...
The Dalai Lama who comes from an animal flesh eating school of Buddhism where vegetables were few and far between (which made the milking and killing of Yaks for their milk and flesh a necessity) ....
However on more than one occasion he has urged Tibetan Buddhists to become either Vegetarian or Vegan. now that vegetables and animal flesh alternatives are readily available ....
And when it comes to compassion, it would seem it's an ongoing practice with the usual swings & roundabouts along the way... 'different strokes for different folks'... it being a case of one person's meat is another person's sentient being
I guess in the long run it's a matter of doing the least harm possible and this relates to both one's own physical and mental well being ( how one's actions sit with one's conscience) ... as well as towards other sentient beings...
The killing ( directly or indirectly) of other sentient beings for food is a choice one has to make and live with....
Do we as Buddhists have compassion towards one another for the hard choices we often have to make ...
Not all Buddhists are vegan.
And not all are even vegetarian.
And sometimes a vegetarian diet doesn't work for someone .. such as when the Dalai Lama's doctors told him when he grew old that he had to start eating meat.
The Precepts Vows include a vow to not KILL, but not to avoid eating meat. Unless that particular animal was killed specifically to feed YOU.
Buddha himself was very practical ... since his monks were begging for food, they were allowed to eat anything.
I agree with against animal cruelty. I agree with, as consumers, NOT supporting animal cruelty.
The fix for that is to buy only from local small farmers who raise animals in a humane manner. These products will cost more .. but can you put a price limit on saving animals from suffering?
If enough people did that, maybe the huge agri-businesses (who are the ones causing suffering) would go out of business? Perhaps I am being too idealistic but I do not think I could stand a world without idealism.
And while we are on the topic of not supporting cruelty ... let's NOT buy sweatshop inexpensive clothing. This is increasingly difficult to do in this world, but if we cannot find a Western-made garment perhaps we can shop at the thrift shops, since that clothing has previously been purchased so we are not supporting the exploitation of Third-World employees .. working for wages that won't support them, in unsafe conditions, with ever-increasing quotas they have to meet.
Yes @FoibleFull I agree with your words, ethics isn't just food, but the whole picture of the cheap goods and throw away culture. Even my beloved veg when it's packaged in plastic. Do as little harm as possible all the time, there's usually a kind option ? I too couldn't stand a world without idealism, that's how we move forward ?
I completely get what you mean, and I really do take on board what you say.
Such actions would definitely appear to go completely against the premise of Compassion and Wisdom; Matthieu Ricard is a great and constant advocate of giving up meat... And to be honest, I drink very little milk per se, but prefer Soya and Almond, and tend to use oils for cooking, although I have hitherto made my own ghee, from my own home-made butter....
To be honest, any form of mass animal husbandry is questionable. I Think the UK has an overall excellent record of animal care, and there are extremely stringent regulations, and very severe penalties for those who do not conform, start to finish...
The USA is very far down the line, but having said that, the Anti-Cruelty Movement is gathering pace at breakneck speed...
This isn't by way of a pissing contest, by the way. I am detailing the above information by way of a comparison of attitudes, because you have good reason to feel so strongly about the matter, and I genuinely applaud your opinions.
I have shown this video before, and I feel it is a good illustration of perhaps why so many are complacent when it comes to dietary choice...
Well said @FoibleFull
I like to wear hand me down clothes. No make up. And prefer recycled plastic clothes such as fleece. I have stopped shaving my head twice a year as it frightens the non buddhists who think I am a skinhead (a type of non sentient life form).
I can afford vegan and organic food and am omnivorous and even cannibalistic on occasion, shrimp and tiger prawns are edible lobsterian cousins ...
Bonus diet tips
https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2013/03/05/11-ways-to-grow-new-brain-cells-and-stimulate-neurogenesis/
Thank you @federica for your informed and unbiased advice. There are so .many pitfalls and although I live in the UK don't entirely trust the animal welfare here, when I was veggie I absolutely adored yeo valley yoghurt, but sadly their are some terrible back stories to that. But any steps forward are good, both for sentient beings and the enviroment we live in . The world food situation is frigtening enough, with waste and over consumption v malnutrition and food banks.
Hmm if karma & rebirth are the real deal then most (if not all) of us have in a past life been on the receiving end of the butcher's knife...Like lambs to the slaughter...
So it's possible those of us who have this strong urge to become (and stick with it) Vegetarians & Vegans do so because this past life experience is still fresh in our sub-consciousness memory bank...whilst for others it's a case of out of sight( no fresh memories) out of mind (not stored in sub-consciousness or stored at the back amongst all the other junk accumulated)
You never know...what you may never know...but you may believe it's so
Some food for the psycho-physical phenomenon called self to ponder over yonder lives ...
@federica "It has been proven that of the three, Carbohydrates are absolutely redundant and unnecessary." I looked at the thread linked, saw there are TED talk links in it but may have missed the key one. Can you help point me towards the science, as I have not yet seem it. I thought a purely protein and fats diet would very badly affect the brain before it brought other organ failures!
If it's one of the TEDx Talks, which one? Thanks.
First of all, I should clarify my statement. Our bodies do not need carbs as an essential ingredient, but we can't NOT consume them, because they're found in a high and wide variety of foods, so we can't completely avoid them, even if we wanted to.
I Do not consume SIMPLE carbs at all. I don't eat bread, pasta, rice or potatoes, unless I am in a situation where eating them is unavoidable (going out to dinner at a friend's house, is a prime example).
Carbs may well be necessary if you're into body-building and are attempting to build muscle. But as a nutrient, you actually don't require intake of carbs, because the body deals with that...
Rather than get you to rely on one source within the thread (which you will note, is quite long!)
I have located other sources for you to peruse...
Here are three
Links
For you.
@federica Thank you, interesting and informative.
I'm not a nutritionist but those pages seem science-based.
What had stuck in my mind (from some decades ago, when my doctors were qyite concerned about my body bopping all over the glucose map, and producing ketones in ketosis states, was information from webpages such as this https://www.healthline.com/health-news/keto-diet-is-gaining-popularity-but-is-it-safe-121914#4 which warn that "ketosis is actually a mild form of ketoacidosis. Ketoacidosis mostly affects people with type 1 diabetes. In fact, it is the leading cause of death of people with diabetes who are under 24 years of age." [Emphasis added, to reflect where my comments were coming from.] But article continues with "However, many experts say ketosis itself is not necessarily harmful."
These days, for this body, coma and injuries from this body suddenly collapsing are more my worry.
But you are quite correct, carbohydrates are technically un necessary, replacable, for many mammals including humans; and also are ubiquitous/unavoidable in any natural diet anyway. (I imagine one perhaps could avoid in some nutritional substitute of the future, but science isn't quite there yet.)
At the moment I'm a believer that individual constitutions vary considerably and certain diets that are effective and healthy for one person may be unhealthy for another to varying degrees. Maybe that can be easily used as an excuse for sticking to socially unethical choices, but I do think varying constitutions need to be included in a solution.
Having said that, I think the real game changer will be cheap, taste and nutrient comparable lab grown meat. With that in the market nearly all of the arguments for animals as food goes away and a social norm against factory farming becomes much more likely. I imagine there will still be people who will want wild game or animals raised in happy animal ways on small hobby farms for those who can afford that, but maybe in time that too will become seen as immoral.
@ERose ketosis and ketoacidosis are two completely different conditions. Ketosis is NOT a mild form of ketoacidosis. Bodily conditions are quite different and separate.
From Here:
Also here, and here.
@federica It was a quote. Not my statement, but one on healthline.com. It is possible it is wrong, as and how you say. I cannot access this.
If you consider my comment with the quote disinformation, I would not mind it being removed; I have very little investment in the tangent, except the hope that people (including diabetics or others vulnerable for personal physical or mental peculiarities) come to harm.
I trust your judgement in this.
Oh, @ERose, I wouldn't even dream of removing your comment, bless you! No, this discussion is a fully legitimate one, and as usual with such matters, everyone is free to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, but different points of view are completely acceptable, and rightly so.
For me to remove your comment would be censoring for no good reason.
There are of course circumstances where a Moderator would act to remove content, but those situations are very few and far between, and certainly by no stretch of the imagination, could this one be considered as such.
My husband is classified as a pre-diabetic, which sounds ominous, except that this is a post-diabetic type II situation, not a warning sign. He used to weigh 8 stone (112lbs) more than he does now, had diabetes II and was on diabetic medication.
He is now carefully monitored, but no longer needs any meds.
He lost the weight by going Low-carb/no-carb, and hit ketosis.
Prior to his weight loss, he was certainly a prime candidate for ketoacidosis, if anyone was...!
He and I did an awful lot of research before and during our change of lifestyle, and I lost 25lbs or thereabouts, myself. (9st.6lbs to 8 stone, that is, 132lbs down to 96).
We still eat a healthy and balanced low-carb diet today, even though I confess, dues to the menopause, my weight has crept up a little again. But hey, I'm not stressed about it....
I was a vegan briefly a few years ago, but then reverted to vegetarianism. I wasn’t very mentally healthy at the time, and a doctor told me that certain nutrients in dairy were important for your brain.
I am considering becoming temporarily vegan again this summer, for the Vassa period. I’m not a committed Theravadin, but I like the idea of a time of year for adhering more diligently to the precepts. I’ve also seen it called Buddhist Lent, as there is a tradition of giving up certain luxuries. I’m planning to give up dairy and alcohol.
I don’t think that veganism is inherently more compassionate than vegetarianism. I think it’s possible to have a mutually beneficial relationship with farm animals, where they provide milk or eggs, and the farmer feeds and protects them. (My personal feeling is that slaughtering them breaks this covenant.) So I think the goal in our egg and dairy farms is to improve animal welfare, not to outlaw them completely.
My personal approach is to try to be better towards eating animals and their products. To that extent I often cook vegetarian for the week, at this point I often don't make much of a distinction between meals with meat in them and those without and usually select from my recipes more on taste than anything. These past two weeks have unintentionally been vegetarian, except for a meal of pepperoni and sausage pizza over the weekend.
Do your best, none of us are perfect, just knowing and trying makes us and the world better than if we never even tried because the task seems too difficult.
I have had to eliminate dairy and wheat for months now because of a problem with my esophagus. I've found good things to cook myself to eat but hard to eat restaurant or home cooked food (by someone else than me). But it has helped lose that hard to lose 5 pounds. And I'm eating less fats though I do eat meats and even fatty meat. And eating a lot less sugar though I can have sugar just don't eat it. I do eat lots of fruits and eating more vegetables than usual.
What got me to change the way I eat was a bad cholesterol problem. It forced me to change up my dietary habits and find new foods to eat. At first it was a challenge but I found lots of good things to eat, pleasure in cooking, an easy dropping of about 30 pounds and a less expensive way of getting good tasting food by almost totally eliminating take out and fast food.
Yes me too. I'm making foods I haven't made before or haven't made in a long time. I had already been eating a lot of fruits. I have learned to make baked vegetables in olive oil and spices (squash, potatoes, maybe some others). I eat a lot of oatmeal with cinnamon and turmeric. I eat omelettes or corn tortilla tacos with cooked meats and sautéed peppers and onions or such with spices. A lot of things like that. For a rapid snack food I have corn tortilla chips and hummus or salsa or olives or nuts. About the only sweet I eat is peanut butter. I could be eating sugary foods that are technically ok with my diet but I just haven't indulged. However I am fantasizing if my endoscopy looks good and I can eat dairy/wheat again to go to the bakery and have like some peanut butter cup cinnamon rolls or other naughty things like that
@Jeffrey just a word of caution; you say you don't eat sugar, but some fruit is extremely high in sugar, and my H had to eliminate a good variety of fruits while he was diabetic, due to the "hidden content". Yes, fruit is good for you, and provides a plethora of nutrients, but those sugars can getcha if you're not lookin'. Of course, if you're not disposed to diabetes (it's not a family trait, for example) then you probably don't need to worry too much. But as I noted you said you don't eat sugar, I just thought I'd mention it....
Hi federica thanks for the caution. I do take medication that is a risk for diabetes but have not develop it. Fruit has calories in some sense but it is very different compared to say candy or pastries. I usually eat one piece of fruit for breakfast (eg apple, banana, or like amount of grapes or berries etc) so I'm not eating a high volume of calories. And later in the day I might or might not have a second piece of fruit. And both the volume of calories and rate of entering the bloodstream is much better comparing fruit to candy or pastries. Example: an apple (180 g) has about 100 calories and you have to maybe peel it and cut it and chew it. But a cinnamon roll (65g) has about 284 calories! Look at the amount and the mass of them. A lot of the apples mass is fiber. And the apple releases the (smaller amount) of sugar much slower. So one or two pieces of fruit and I'll be fine. I don't seem as liable to eat a bag of apples in a day (has never happened) compared to too much sweets like candy or pastries (has happened).
Also note wondering if my metric system friends use calories? Or are they on to the SI units of Joules?
Edit: also of note is that fruit juice is much worse (risky for diabetes and weight gain) than fruit itself because it loses all that fiber which not only you lose that good fiber for your GI tract but also then the sugar hits the bloodstream faster because doesn't have to desorb from the fiber to get right into the blood. Also can drink 2 glasses of fruit juice a lot faster than you can eat all of the fruit (and cut up etc) that the juice was made from.
The animals would not be bred to begin with, so that's not an issue.
They would be compensated by changing their business practices to produce something that people actually want, as that is how business works. No business owner deserves to be compensated simply because people stop wanting to buy their products. If you want to insist on producing an inferior product, you go out of business.
The 4th vegan food group, Legumes! Which includes all the various beans, nuts and seeds.
Is the animal's point of view.
@Kerome another good healthy fat is olive oil.
I saw a statistic today that 98% of the earth’s terrestrial vertebrate biomass is made up of humans, livestock and pets. That’s not including what lives in the oceans and all insects, of course. But it’s a huge proportion.
@Kerome take a look at this. It compares all of the biomass types including algae and bacteria etc
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/5/29/17386112/all-life-on-earth-chart-weight-plants-animals-pnas?fbclid=IwAR2xlJlYcAA2Fajfk0bOTQS155yBTXmddjJesFpAipZKqJbvofB_TGWgPtU
(scroll down to see the comparative chart in article above)
Interesting article on Vegan/Vegetarian diet being cheaper in the long run
As usual, the simplest of solutions are very often the most difficult to implement, because the field is wide open for exploitation, profiteering, land-mass destruction and ecologically- questionable practices. Just because one problem can be replaced by another solution, doesn't make it necessarily an entirely positive improvement.
Which are also loaded with carbohydrates. Not my preferred source of nutrient.
Oh the vegetarian/vegan movement is picking up pace and proving popular. (There's a nice bit of alliteration for you!)
My problem is one that - believe it or not - weighs me down with considerable guilt.
...And the beat goes on....