Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register
Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

White Lotus Society

lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
in Buddhism Basics

Are you a Purelander?

I used to go occasionally to one of their temples. Everyone else was Vietnamese.
https://www.thoughtco.com/pure-land-buddhism-450043

However they have a cunning methodology. Rebirth into the Purelands, right here and now ideally. Seems like a plan?

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Yeah.... no. They're making it up as they go along..

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    It seems to me like a substitute for Christianity, and inspired by it... but instead of praying to God you are saying a chant to Amida Buddha, so that he will take you into heaven the Pure Land.

    It sounds like an easier path than self knowledge and letting go and enlightenment over many years. You don’t have to do the hard work of introspection, sharpening the insight, instead you just do a little chanting. It seems a step away from the Eightfold Path.

    But I am not hugely knowledgeable about Pure Land Buddhism, have just heard a few things. I could be wrong in whole or in part.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    Dharma Pureland takes almost super natural faith. A dirty word for some head based Westerners is Faith ... why? Belief that mountains don't move ...

    As a cherry picking Buddhist, I make my own dharma lands. Here we are again. Reality made up of fantasy ...

    Zap! Pow! Namo Amitabha!
    http://thubtenchodron.org/2010/05/about-chanting-name-amitabha/

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    So ... Jesus is an early Super Hero in Buddhism
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Sutras

    More here:
    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4979/pure-land-and-christianity

    Christ Be With You
    Amitabha Too

    o:)

    Jeroen
  • VimalajātiVimalajāti Whitby, Ontario Veteran
    edited March 2019

    The quasi-Venerable para-Nāgārjuna digs Amitāyurbuddha, but also calls his fans cowardly and contemptible men. Expedient means, much?

    You say that the Stage of Non-retrogression is extremely difficult to enter, requiring a long period of practice, and ask me if there is a path of easy practice whereby you can attain this stage quickly. These are words of a cowardly and contemptible man, and not those of a brave man with a strong aspiration. If, however, you insist on hearing from me about this method of practice, I will explain it to you. There are innumerable modes of entry into the Buddha's teaching. Just as there are in the world difficult and easy paths - travelling on foot by land is full of hardship and travelling in a boat by sea is pleasant - so it is among the paths of the bodhisattvas. Some exert themselves diligently, while others quickly enter Non-retrogression by the easy practice based on faith. The vow of Amitāyurnāmatathāgata is as follows:

    'If anyone contemplates me, recites my name, and takes refuge in me, he will instantly enter the Stage of Assurance and subsequently attain the highest perfect bodhi.'

    For this reason, you should always be mindful of him.

    (pseudo-Nāgārjuna, Daśabhūmikavibhāṣa, T1521)

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    quasi-Venerable

    ?

    Dear Friends and Buddha Fiends ;)

    Name Calling and calling the Buddha Names are not for the feint hearted. We have to be the real dealer. Eventually if we call on the Buddha, guess who we meet on the path ...

    The Beloved Buddha (please no Zen culling)

    I recently saw an excellent BBC documentary in which Free Speech/Mantra was discussed ...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2019/02/27/satanic-verses-30-years-review-fierce-reminder-effects-rushdie/

    Namo Amitabha
    and Al-Lat too

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Can't read the telegraph article, @lobster, unless you're registered... Nice first paragraph tho'...

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited March 2019

    Ah ... thanks @federica

    The documentary should be available on BBC Iplayer in the UK. In America (the home of fried speech) it might not be available. :3

    It is an interesting documentary. As a heretic, I am very wary of trumpettes who 'shout free speech' when they mean free only for those who agree with them. It is interesting how we have protected certain forms of speech. For example social shaming/bullying. We often discourage co-operative/diplomatic/empowering speech. Tsk, tsk.

    Sometimes certain forms of Dharma (including those with a political agenda) have been encouraged and for example the widespread Purelanders derided as 'second class Buddhists'. Third class Buddhists being New Age Syncretists who believe any old ignorance (too harsh?)

    And Now back to the First Class Amitabha


    Al-Uzza (Possibly original Divine Hussy) o:)

    person
  • adamcrossleyadamcrossley Veteran UK Veteran

    @federica said:
    Yeah.... no. They're making it up as they go along..

    Honestly, I was a little shocked to read this. Aren’t we a Buddhist forum? Pureland is part of the Buddhist mandala—it contributes something really valuable. I’m particualrly inspired by the democratic nature of its practice. The compassion of Amida Buddha is available to all who call on it, with no distinction between rich and poor, monastic or lay. This non-discrimination is something I see as essential to Buddhism in any form.

    Alex
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2019

    @adamcrossley, I apologise. Maybe I should have expanded upon the comment.

    I have been at the wrong end of a very unpleasant experience. YMMV. But from what I experienced, saw and heard for myself, those with whom I interacted left me with a decidedly unpleasant 'taste' in my mouth.

    Beyond that, I would prefer to not say more.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited March 2019

    @Kerome said:
    It seems to me like a substitute for Christianity, and inspired by it...

    Probably not because Pureland likely originated before Christ was even born. Its origins extend at least as far back as the 1st century BCE. Buddha Amitabha chanting, and Pure Land rebirth, originated from the The Pratyutpanna Sutra, one of the oldest Mahayana sutras of them all, circa 100-1 BC.

    personlobsterVastmindJeroen
  • adamcrossleyadamcrossley Veteran UK Veteran
    edited March 2019

    @federica, that’s quite all right. No offence taken. I assumed you had more to say, and I’m sorry you had an unpleasant experience.

    There’s an interesting Lions Roar article I read recently, which I think is relevant. Happy reading:

    https://www.lionsroar.com/the-practice-of-jodo-shinshu/

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    For the record ...

    All together now ... :3

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited March 2019

    I wouldn't mind being reborn in a Pure land but would hope I could then still practice the dharma. I'm not so sure the vow of the Bodhisattva would allow me to be in such an area while there is still so much suffering. If I could remember what it's like beyond the Pure land I would feel pretty guilty.

    I would have to trick myself into thinking it was just the future.

    lobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    @David said:
    I wouldn't mind being reborn in a Pure land but would hope I could then still practice the dharma. I'm not so sure the vow of the Bodhisattva would allow me to be in such an area while there is still so much suffering. If I could remember what it's like beyond the Pure land I would feel pretty guilty.

    I would have to trick myself into thinking it was just the future.

    You could think of it like going to Buddha school (like medical school), Pureland practice is intended to lead you to a dharmic heaven realm where you can advance in the practice. If you're going to be able to skillfully help free others from their suffering, it could be good to get maximally qualified first.

    There are said to be three types of bodhicitta. Shepard like, where one leads others to enlightenment before you yourself achieve that state, Avalokiteshvara is like this. Ferryman like, where you lead others to enlightenment along side yourself. And king like, where you achieve enlightenment first then lead others, Shakyamuni and Amitaba are examples I believe.

    David
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran

    I do not look to go to a pure land of a foreign Buddha in a far distant helm of the galaxy/universe. We make the land pure with our minds right here, right now.
    Tsunaburo Makaguchi the first president of the SGI is said to have declared that he was not afraid to go into Hell because he would immediately spread the Law and turn it into a Buddha Land.

    lobster
  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran

    The pure land of Amida isn 't some distant mythical land millions of miles away like Narnia or Middle Earth, it is a metaphor for the fundamental purity of your own mind. Unlike more full on methods of meditation that push down in to the mind that cause the illusion of the defilements to rise in order to see through them, the repetition of Nembutsu is a way of gently letting that purity rise to the surface suitable for beings of all Karmic dispositions.

    lobsterVastmind
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    Tee Hee @Lionduck <3

    The only time I went to a SGI meeting, they were playing
    Nam-myoho-renge-kyo
    at very loud volume through the speaker system.
    No different in effect to Tibetan temple music or Pureland chanting in Vietnamese or being in traffic ...

    For me such noise is a low level hell.
    I stayed for aprox 40 mins or an hour with the speaker enhanced noise meditation. SGI were surprised I stayed so long ...

    I noticed there was also a quieter room, might try there next time ...

    Pureland, dukkha, hell, heaven, limbo land ...
    All between us and our temples ...

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    @person said:

    @David said:
    I wouldn't mind being reborn in a Pure land but would hope I could then still practice the dharma. I'm not so sure the vow of the Bodhisattva would allow me to be in such an area while there is still so much suffering. If I could remember what it's like beyond the Pure land I would feel pretty guilty.

    I would have to trick myself into thinking it was just the future.

    You could think of it like going to Buddha school (like medical school), Pureland practice is intended to lead you to a dharmic heaven realm where you can advance in the practice. If you're going to be able to skillfully help free others from their suffering, it could be good to get maximally qualified first.

    There are said to be three types of bodhicitta. Shepard like, where one leads others to enlightenment before you yourself achieve that state, Avalokiteshvara is like this. Ferryman like, where you lead others to enlightenment along side yourself. And king like, where you achieve enlightenment first then lead others, Shakyamuni and Amitaba are examples I believe.

    Thank you for that. I was under the mistaken impression the Pure Land was like the final destination rather than another temporary existence. Puts the practice and school in a new light. Not something I will specifically aim for myself but I have a new found respect for the practice.

    Nice.

    person
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited March 2019

    ‘Are you a Purelander?’

    I personally am not. As a former attendee of a Chan Group I am aware of it and The particular teaching was brought up occasionally, but not drilled in. Our Temple/ monastery had more secular leanings, IMO. From what I recieved, it appeared much like the Christian heaven concept...so I didn’t pay it any attention after that. Not my taste of belief, that’s all. Im very much in the cherry picking camp :glasses:

  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    @Vastmind said:
    ‘Are you a Purelander?’

    I personally am not. Not my taste of belief, that’s all. Im very much in the cherry picking camp :glasses:

    dharma can be like a buffet,try something new or old....as a seasoned buffeter we settle in and choose what we like,or buddhist vernacular expediant means for our spiritual growth.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    Thanks @Traveller your description is exactly how I experience and understand the purée-lands. The essence or pith of Dharma-rama. The alignment or resonance with the Bodhi Landed means samsara is nibanna.

    or to put it another way

    We are in the Purelands. Who guessed? Answers to the usual mala address.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    @David said:
    I wouldn't mind being reborn in a Pure land but would hope I could then still practice the dharma. I'm not so sure the vow of the Bodhisattva would allow me to be in such an area while there is still so much suffering. If I could remember what it's like beyond the Pure land I would feel pretty guilty.

    You have been grabbed by the Buddha's (so to speak) In other words the dharma route runs deep and the practice tree roots our emotive understanding. You are innocent of others suffering BUT when did that stop the determined Highlander Purelander. Be kind, whether people want it or not. In your face dharma, don't leave the near shore without it ....

    I would have to trick myself into thinking it was just the future.

    It is one of the Ten-Trick or Tantric Dharmas. ;)

  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    thanks lobster.just finished reading the links you provided.

    i simply bow at lord amida buddha.

    lobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    i simply bow at lord amida buddha

    That's the spirit B)

    I will start a new shred/thread on the relationship between critical discernment (hurrah for that) AND crazy hearts, artistic poetic expression. Being crazy is not an obstacle to up-taking dharma. Nor is being a douche/troll/cushion hoarder/fish hater/drugee/dying/terminally alive etc.

    We are just trying to find a Pure Dharma applicable to our Middle Way to the Buddha cherry orchard . . .
    Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

    person
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    We're all at the same buffet, @lobster , it's just that not everyone likes vol-au-vents...

    lobsterKundo
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    Exactly @federica

    Different tastes and nutritional needs.

    Ideally, not always possible, we combine nutitrition, taste and the secret ingredient - Heart.

    Delicious.

  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    Me trying to exercise.... @lobster stop spying on me :awesome:

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    (I must, I must
    Improve my bust....)

    KundoVastmindlobster
  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran

    @Kundo said:

    Me trying to exercise.... @lobster stop spying on me :awesome:

    That's not you @Kundo, she's nowhere near as attractive.

    @lobster I think the term faith in pure land is a bit like the term suffering in other schools it's a mistranslation - it's not faith it's more like complete trust or at least that's the way it's explained in Jodo Shinshu.

    But then again what do I know as Shinran put it - I'm just a stubble headed Bombu.

    lobsterKundo
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Traveller said:

    That's not you @Kundo, she's nowhere near as attractive.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    @lobster I think the term faith in pure land is a bit like the term suffering in other schools it's a mistranslation - it's not faith it's more like complete trust or at least that's the way it's explained in Jodo Shinshu.

    Indeed.
    Trust or confidence is a better translation.
    It is a very strange thing. Our mind can not always cope with certain ideas or absolute principles. What form does Truth, Compassion, Feminine Dharma, Perfection, Bodhi take?

    However ... Cenrezig, Amitaba, Tara, Buddha, Shiva, Christ, Captain Marvel, Bambi all represent these potential constructs that can change our approach to life and Being.

    What happens when we empower and embody these principles. Resonate with them? They become Real. We enter the Pureland.

    AND ... strange as it may be, we really do change ... moving through the realms ...
    https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/six-realms-reincarnation-and-confusing-your-friends/

    Meanwhile some practice hyper ventilation/kundalini yoga like the woman in the gif.
    Faster, faster, Bambi! Don't come back! Keep running! KEEP RUNNING!
    Last words Mother Bambi

  • VimalajātiVimalajāti Whitby, Ontario Veteran

    @lobster said:

    quasi-Venerable

    ?

    Oh, the author of Daśabhūmikavibhāṣa is only quasi-Venerable because he is only quasi-Nāgārjuna!

    lobster
Sign In or Register to comment.