Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?

KeromeKerome Love, love is mysteryThe Continent Veteran

I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened? And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning? There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

Ren_in_black
«1

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 16

    Can the mind be taken as a graspable object? Or on the other hand is there something that is not composite with the mind? Like our notions of the world out there that is different from my interior world. We have a sense of inside and outside ourselves. And we have a sense of there existing other beings that we are connected to via the outer world. But do we know of anything that is not touched by our interior or mind experience? And is that what the mind is? Our interior experience is the mind? And then the experience 'out there' is that our mind too or is it different? How do we then connect with other beings? I think we have a sense of connecting.

    lobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Oh. Great! like spiritual string theory.
    Maybe we could ask what your definition is of the mind and enlightenment before trying to do a two step with the both of them.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    It certainly seems like we can condition ourselves to be kinder or more patient, etc. Does that go all the way to enlightenment? I don't know.

    There is the metaphor of the Buddhist path as raft which seems relevant.

    Kerome
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    OK..I'll go 1st.

    I usually define the mind as a librarian turned empire builder, that is obsessively trying to make itself safe within the forms, sensations, thoughts; activities and consciousness of the chaos that arises from trying to perform such an impossible job.

    &

    Enlightenment is just finding oneself demoted back to librarian again.

    Perhaps this will explain why I am in serious need of some better definitions.

    ShoshinlobsterNirvana
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @person said:
    It certainly seems like we can condition ourselves to be kinder or more patient, etc. Does that go all the way to enlightenment? I don't know.

    There is the metaphor of the Buddhist path as raft which seems relevant.

    Yeah, and all the Tibetan Buddhist sayings of how to generate bodhicitta, the mind that strives towards enlightenment for the sake of all beings.

    But something tells me that conditioning doesn’t necessarily lead to awakening. Conditioning often just influences the responses we make by reflex, if one is truly aware then one makes conscious decisions.

  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    @person said:
    It certainly seems like we can condition ourselves to be kinder or more patient, etc. Does that go all the way to enlightenment? I don't know.

    There is the metaphor of the Buddhist path as raft which seems relevant.

    beutiful metephor.earths grace.river,raft,time,afloat,flow.being one with the river ,moving with earths grace.

  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    ....enlighten experiance,can happen anytime.gradual or sudden is all good.dharma is spread upon the earth and some see and be.so one tool of conditioning is be present and see for yourself the enlighten experience without words. dharmas grace.before enlightenment chop wood. after enlightenment chop wood with ahh...

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited January 18

    @Kerome said:

    @person said:
    It certainly seems like we can condition ourselves to be kinder or more patient, etc. Does that go all the way to enlightenment? I don't know.

    There is the metaphor of the Buddhist path as raft which seems relevant.

    Yeah, and all the Tibetan Buddhist sayings of how to generate bodhicitta, the mind that strives towards enlightenment for the sake of all beings.

    But something tells me that conditioning doesn’t necessarily lead to awakening. Conditioning often just influences the responses we make by reflex, if one is truly aware then one makes conscious decisions.

    That sounds right to me, at least in my experience, I can't speak to enlightenment.

    In my practice I really incorporate both aspects. There's a lot of basic awareness meditation, but I also say prayers which I think conditions the mind and read and think on the philosophical topics. Making intentional efforts in difficult life situations I think is also a form of conditioning, "practice makes perfect", "fake it until you make it".

    Besides how often are any of us truly aware.

  • Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?

    No.

    However are there conditions that favour the Buddha Mind? Yes.

    For example:

    • mindfulness
    • metta mind
    • meditation mind
    • neti-neti mind
    • unmind/unwined/relaxed mind
    • thought less more being
  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    @Kerome said:
    I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

    So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened? And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning? There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

    lobster comment,triggered the thought,mind is empty and full or buddha mind.the brain function,is dependent on conditions.recondition the brain function ,through lobsters list,one can "feel" buddha mind or nature.for me,i think im in the gradual school of conditioning of buddhism.had to rework brain conditioning or reconditioning of undbinding like untieing a knot.

    i think awareness is key.essence of mind .being aware the functioning brain and leading it to ease rest,through reconditioning may lead to an aware state of mind .the sense of nirvana unbinding.the more i reflect,the more i agree with shoshin,mind is present,this enlightenment,but self,the functioning brain can be stubborn.me too can be stubborn call ego.

    lobsterpommesetoranges
  • paulysopaulyso usa Veteran

    one tool of reconditioning in zen is passive attitude is to say maybe or it might be so.this tool is to lessen thinking and abide in feelness or suchness with awareness.

    in dao,the tool of softness over hardness is associate with passive thinking in zen to hold no hard views.

    this reconditioning tools purpose is not to cling to think but sense mind who has quality of aware and know.

    lobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    I came across this You Tube video on the distinction between instant gratification and delayed gratification on our habits and long term outcomes. He's talking about ordinary life but I think it applies to the spiritual path just as well.

  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited January 19

    The Eightfold Path is all about conditioning ourselves to be ever more aware but I must confess that the word "enlightened" sounds somehow like a bit of fakery to me.

    @Kerome said:
    I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

    This sounds right. Any kind of training is self conditioning and if the training is conducive to awakening, the potential for awakening is fed.

    So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened?

    Some would seem to think so but I'm not so sure staking a claim to enlightenment isn't the same thing as clinging to a view. I'm happy striving to be ever more aware and let the enlightening come as it may. There seem to be many answers and every time we learn something, there is a revealing and so enlightenment.

    I think it would come in stages but I doubt there is a good time to stop being open to new information that could prove our notions to be conjecture.

    And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning? There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

    Everything conditioned conditions.

    lobsterNirvana
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited January 19

    I must confess that the word "enlightened" sounds somehow like a bit of fakery to me.

    Be slack - Church of the SubGenius

    Grace is a Christian. Fana is an Allah-gal. Harmony is a new wager. Cod is the new fish in town.
    Words are fake but the fakir is real.

    Here to be lightened ...

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Sometimes, @lobster I wonder if the point of your posts is merely to make no coherent point at all.
    That's just saying something for the sake of saying it, a spoonful of papanca...
    Pithy remarks are only pithy if they're appetisers for more literary nourishment.
    Leave us wanting more. Don't leave us with an insignificant aftertaste.

    Keromelobster
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I don’t know, I always quite enjoy untangling @lobster’s references.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 20

    Once it's a laugh, twice it's a giggle, three times it's a bore.
    And sadly, for me, it's a repetitive chore.
    I note your approval, @Kerome, but it does nothing to either ameliorate nor endorse the matter.

    And if anyone is in any doubt, yes, I am speaking as Moderator.

    Nirvanalobster
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran
    edited January 20

    @lobster very often says what I would like to say, but lack the nerve to do so - and so I choose silence instead. Also, I'm lazier and less imaginative.

    One finger points directly, two fingers would be overkill at best.

    Gassho beaucoup, @lobster, @federica

    Nirvanalobster
  • https://www.facebook.com/UrgyenRinpoche/

    "If you believe there is a thing
    called mind, it is just a thought.
    If you believe there is no thing
    called mind, it’s just another thought.
    Your natural state,
    free of any kind of thought about it—
    that is buddha nature.
    In ordinary sentient beings,
    this natural state
    is carried away by thinking,
    caught up in thought.
    Involvement in thinking
    is like a heavy chain that weighs you down.
    Now it is time to be free from that chain.
    The moment you shatter the chain of thinking,
    you are free from the three realms of samsara.

    In this entire world,
    there is nothing superior to
    or more precious than knowing
    how to break this chain.
    Even if you were to scan the entire world,
    or piece by piece put it through a sieve
    in an attempt to find something more precious,
    you’d come up with nothing.
    None of the buddhas of the past,
    present and future have discovered
    an instruction that is more profound
    or more direct in attaining enlightenment.
    To ask for teachings on the nature of mind
    means to understand
    how to recognize mind nature."

    ~ H. E. Kyabje Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, As it is , Volume 1 Chapter 4- Existence & Nonexistence (Pages 75~76 ) Translated by Erik Pema Kunsang

    lobsterDavid
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 21

    @Fosdick said:
    @lobster very often says what I would like to say, but lack the nerve to do so - and so I choose silence instead. Also, I'm lazier and less imaginative.

    One finger points directly, two fingers would be overkill at best.

    Gassho beaucoup, @lobster, @federica

    Yeah.
    Ok,people, get this straight: I am not seeking a reduction of wisdom, I am seeking a bit of temperance when it comes to the nonsense.
    It's a question of @lobster asking himself "is there really any useful point to this post?" and then showing some restraint if it's over 60% nonsense.
    Which sadly, it often is.

    While it's great that you're supportive, I really didn't want a moratorium or discussion on my observations.
    As a Moderator, I am not obliged or required to justify myself, so, leave it at that and move on, ok?

  • @how said:
    OK..I'll go 1st.

    I usually define the mind as a librarian turned empire builder, that is obsessively trying to make itself safe within the forms, sensations, thoughts; activities and consciousness of the chaos that arises from trying to perform such an impossible job.

    Empire or umpire? ;)
    The chaotic nature of our disorder and attempt to understand/quantify is the heart of our knowable being, within the arisings @how describes ...

    • The mind form that is known is considered real, rather than crazy ...
    • The sensational arises and attracts through Mara ...
    • I think it, therefore I know it. And what we don't know ... ?
    • I do virtue, therefore my ritualised patterned actions are ... habits ... ?
    • And consciousness ... well sure I exist ... not-self is just Buddhist ... oh wait ... it is realization based ... :|

    &

    Enlightenment is just finding oneself demoted back to librarian again.

    Just when I thought I was on the Middle Way ...
    back to meditation ...

    Perhaps this will explain why I am in serious need of some better definitions.

    #metoo

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I dreamt of a weight being taken off my mind in the night... literally...

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
    edited November 9

    I’ve returned to this question a few times recently, since it is rather key to how one approaches the search for enlightenment. If I look at people who have been said to be enlightened then I don’t see a great deal of mind training in their backgrounds. The Buddha had meditation training from two masters it is true, but he wasn’t a renowned memoriser or keeper of scriptures. Shri Ramana Maharshi at a young age wandered to a holy mountain and found himself there. Osho often said that it is better to remain free of conditioning. Jiddhu Krishnamurti’s views on conditioning as a negative force are well known. In any case they were highly individualistic.

    I’m tempted to conclude that it is useless to seek anything other than a meditation master, someone experienced in teaching meditation methods. That for the rest one should strive to live freely, and not to let anyone add to the burden of ‘shoulds’ that are on our mind. If we start living by the rules of others then we are a long way removed from our authentic being.

    So is an authentic being enlightened? Not automatically I don’t think. There is some unravelling of basic instincts to be done, how does one cope with anger and hatred for instance. I think one arrives at a point of witnessing, of being with the emotion but not letting it take over. Then I believe you would be a lot closer to being enlightened.

    Somehow the approach of training the mind, of pouring beliefs or slogans into it, doesn’t ring true to me. I think at best you achieve a kind of pseudo enlightenment, where your mind is filled with the principles of enlightenment and you’ve had some lovely experiences and have managed to convince yourself you are far on the path, but most of the originality is gone

    howlobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited November 10

    The enlightened mind is unconditioned. In other words it does not have qualities but its expression through us does.

    Imagine a wait being taken off one mind. Now we are patient but patient is not a thing it is an expression of waiting ...

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    I'm certainly enlightened about Enlightenment: It is a big blind Hoax, if ever there was one.

    "What would it mean if?" is all this hoax says to me.

    I call it "projected living." "Pie in the Sky. (Not the Apple of my Eye)

    I believe that there are and have been thousands and thousands of very spiritually advanced and talented people in all places and times. But 99% of them are lost to us. But they really lived, and golly Did They!

    The so-called avatars, such as Buddha, Christ, Krishna, Meher Baba, and many others we called Enlightened (These listed are just ones whose "temples" I've visited.) have reached this distinction by approbation, I think.

    And sure, it is sweet and right and good to visit shrines and such and feel love and gratitude, honoring any of these wonderful people, saints, and Avatars. But truly, I don't believe they sought it. Nay, they caught it or were caught by it. "Seek and you shall find," surely, but do not grasp for it with your mind and heart [Philippians 2:6].

    I believe we are put here to grow in love as grass grows green in spring and to bring joy to others —and to grow in wisdom to learn how not to ruin it and spread misery. That is enough for me. Others may need to believe in More. But for me, Enough! Be content and do good while seeking to be grounded in the Truth and in the Wisdom that is taught.

    On a slightly different subject, the next post:

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    A retreatant asks Rabbi Rami a question: I’m a Christian, and I’ve been reading the Bhagavad Gita. Can God incarnate as both Christ and Krishna?

    Rabbi Rami: If God can incarnate as one person, why not two?
    I believe God incarnates as all reality. To borrow from Paul Tillich
    and Saint Paul: God doesn't exist, God Is Existence: that dynamic,
    evolving process in which we live and move and have our being
    (Acts 17:28). Christ and Krishna knew they were God; you can
    also. The great spiritual awakening that some religions foster
    and others fear is that one day all humanity will put on the mind
    of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) and realize in all truth and humility
    that “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30) and Atman, the
    universal Self, is Brahman, Absolute Reality (Upanishads). So yes,
    God can be both Christ and Krishna, and you and me as well.

    lobsterKeromeDavid
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Nirvana said:
    I'm certainly enlightened about Enlightenment: It is a big blind Hoax, if ever there was one.

    I do know that in the inner space there is much to explore. It is not so straightforward as saying, we are already enlightened.

    I believe we are put here to grow in love as grass grows green in spring and to bring joy to others —and to grow in wisdom to learn how not to ruin it and spread misery. That is enough for me. Others may need to believe in More.

    Well put, sometimes I think one of the things we are here to do is to learn not to be shaped by negative influences. It is easy to be shaped by trauma and hatred, it is more difficult to stay with loving kindness through these events.

    David
  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited November 10

    @Kerome said:
    I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

    So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened?

    I would imagine that happens from time to time.

    And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning?

    I think everything is not only a result of conditions coming together but that which conditions. Just information being shared which produces a result which is more conditions coming together or information being shared.

    There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

    There being no self only really means there is no permanence to anything that arises due to conditions. It doesn't mean we experience in vain.

    Without mind, there would be no stories and no way to learn or experience. Anything can be a lesson or a distraction depending but it all conditions which is why we are taught to be mindful of what we consume.

    Likening the mind to a machine seems a little cold for someone like myself with reverence for life but I can see it as an information processor of sorts except that it also uses that information by making choices.

    Those choices can be less influenced by external conditions as we take our training or conditioning into our own hands.

    Some of us may be able to stumble into it but it mostly seems like we have to put in the work.

    Free will doesn't come cheap.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 10

    Reminds me of the koan:

    "Teacher pacify my mind"

    "Show me your mind and I will pacify it"

    "Wherever I look I cannot find my mind"

    "Your mind has been pacified"


    And some strange sounding commentary that I guess is a part of the koan:

    Commentary: Crowned with garlands the 3 year old plays the drum. An eighty year old man plays with a balloon.

    Verse: If mind is not-mind who can we ask for advice? Is it possible to become a fetus again? The old monk who thinks he can calm the mind of another is just mocking everyone around him and he doesn't even know it.

    David
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    @David said:
    The Eightfold Path is all about conditioning ourselves to be ever more aware but I must confess that the word "enlightened" sounds somehow like a bit of fakery to me.

    That post is from January 19, and expresses my feelings about "enlightenment" as a Goal in life: Unreal and not to be sought.

    I am enamored of @Bunks Buddhist Quotes thread, and I take so many screensavers from that wonderful site. Perhaps someday I'll add the below quote from Kosho Uchiyama to those illustrious quotes there. Here I put it for two reasons: Enlightenment is about our Consciousness. Secondly, pure consciousness is never empty of both light and heat, it is Lovingconsciousness.

    "Pure religion... is the attitude of discovering the life within the self that is connected to all things. It means aiming at manifesting the life of each and every encounter, and seeing all of these encounters as our own life." — Kosho Uchiyama

    Affinity. Not infinity. Love is Everything. Only Love is Infinite, but we cannot get it All by ourselves. But what we have is enough if our hearts not be hardened towards anyone.

    lobsterDavidBunks
  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited November 11

    Oops, I answered this thread twice, sorry.

    Btw, @Kerome, thanks for taking the time to make all these thoughtful threads.

    Much gratitude.

    KeromeBunkslobsterNirvana
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @David said:
    Oops, I answered this thread twice, sorry.

    Btw, @Kerome, thanks for taking the time to make all these thoughtful threads.

    Much gratitude.

    No problem. I find it pleasing that i have been sharing the contents of my mind in a fashion that is useful for the community. I hope the well never runs dry, or the repeating nature of my thoughts is laid bare....

    And the more answers the merrier.

    David
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited November 12

    Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?

    One ball of supportive kapok fluff sometimes claims...

    a practice that unburdens the mind
    of its conditioned responses to phenomena,
    illuminates what was, is, and always will be
    enlightened simultaneously with everything.

    Shoshin1Davidlobster
  • Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?
    Can the mind be conditioned into awakening?
    Can a bird be conditioned into knowing how to fly?
    Can a squirrel be conditioned into gathering nuts?

    Kerome
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited November 28

    l

    Moderator quote:

    It's a question of @lobster asking, "is there really any useful point to this post?" and then showing some restraint if it's over 60% nonsense.
    Which sadly, it often is.

    :(

    ... and now back to the 40% conditioned sense ...

    Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?

    The conditions are always pointing but there we stand, confused by the finger.
    After the moon has its shine, we point aimlessly in every direction resting at the light

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 28

    @Kerome said:
    I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

    So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened? And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning? There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

    Not quite, but something similar I think. The mind can be conditioned to be more skillful, let go of much of what it clings to as self, and once it reaches a certain point, it is then able to cognize that which is unconditioned. In essence, the mind can't create it, but it can be trained to remove the barriers to perceiving it.

    lobsterperson
  • This question might be related to the relationship between interconnection, emptiness, and luminosity?

    Emptiness and luminosity are not two separate things, but rather the nature of emptiness is luminosity, and the nature of luminosity is emptiness. This indivisible emptiness-luminosity, the naked mind, free of everything, dwells in the uncreated state.

    ~ Guru Rinpoche

    lobster
  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited November 28

    @Jeffrey said:
    This question might be related to the relationship between interconnection, emptiness, and luminosity?

    Emptiness and luminosity are not two separate things, but rather the nature of emptiness is luminosity, and the nature of luminosity is emptiness. This indivisible emptiness-luminosity, the naked mind, free of everything, dwells in the uncreated state.

    ~ Guru Rinpoche

    I think so. The uncreated state sounds to me like pure potential which is what emptiness really implies. Without emptiness, no change could take place and without potential no event would have ever gone down.

    lobster
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @Jeffrey said:
    This question might be related to the relationship between interconnection, emptiness, and luminosity?

    Emptiness and luminosity are not two separate things, but rather the nature of emptiness is luminosity, and the nature of luminosity is emptiness. This indivisible emptiness-luminosity, the naked mind, free of everything, dwells in the uncreated state.

    ~ Guru Rinpoche

    Yep.

  • @Kerome said:
    I thought this was an interesting question. Monks seem to be doing various activities to condition the mind, things like metta or the Tibetan eight verses of mind training. Even the five precepts and the noble eightfold path could be called forms of conditioning, as they are things you accept and work with.

    So can you arrange the mind in such a way through training it that just a little bit of meditation pushes it over the edge and go whoosh, enlightened? And are we ultimately anything more than just conditioning on top of conditioning? There is no self, is the mind just a conditioning machine?

    As I understand it, no. The conditioning that we do is to generate the required karma to make the switch to the unconditioned, i.e. enlightened mind. Conditioning the mind to be enlightened would be like painting more to get a blank piece of paper. The switch is magical. You're attempting to paint the most beautiful picture possible such that in doing so the painting somehow reverts to the blank piece of paper. It makes no sense in other words. It's not a strict cause and effect process. There is nothing in the conditioned realm that can bring us to the unconditioned realm because the two are utterly distinct. All we can do is take ourselves to the point where the magic happens.

    lobsterKeromeperson
  • magic

    We muggle along ... or is that potter
    and then ...

    magic!

    Yeah! [I knew there was a plan]

  • Can the mind be conditioned into enlightenment?

    I guess enlightenment involves the awareness of the thing we call the self being just a construct...something continually being conditioned ...

    Transient alas are all component (conditioned) things
    subject are they to birth and then decay
    Having gained birth to death the life flux swings
    bliss truly dawns when unrest dies away

    Which would mean whatever is conditioned will eventually be unconditioned and from what I gather enlightenment is/as always been unconditional ...so to speak...

    One can not be conditioned into letting go one can only become aware of the benefits of not holding on, and from what "I" gather an enlightened mind is an unfettered mind...

    Thus have "I" heard...

    Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya Nothing whatsoever should be clung to...

    lobsterDavidKerome
  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    I wish I could "insightful" and "hug" at the same time, @Shoshin1 because that really hit the spot.

    Much gratitude

  • DavidDavid Just another unique aspect of the same old thang The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran

    Dharmic words are like the finger pointing to the moon... the raft on our way to the other shore.

    They are not the true way of things...

    So they can take you there.

    Shoshin1
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @Shoshin1 said:
    One can not be conditioned into letting go one can only become aware of the benefits of not holding on, and from what "I" gather an enlightened mind is an unfettered mind...

    There is something to the idea of becoming utterly relaxed as a path to enlightenment. However, if you do then you become kind of floppy. There is also viriya, energy that causes one to do whole some things, and thīna-middha or sloth-torpor, one of the five hindrances.

    Methinks there is a Middle Way even in relaxation and in letting go.

    lobsterShoshin1
  • Methinks there is a Middle Way even in relaxation and in letting go.

    The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences

    ~Dogen~

    how
  • I thought this quotation pertained to what we are talking about without detracting or distracting (from the Nyingma tradition I think):

    Nothing, absolutely nothing arises without causes and conditions. Whether it’s external phenomena, no matter how small or subtle it may be, or whether it's any mental state that any being experiences, everything, absolutely everything that has ever existed, or has yet to exist, will have arisen out of causes and conditions.
    Similarly, the moment when the causes and conditions of your own enlightenment are present, you will become a Buddha. In other words, the moment when your two accumulations of merit and wisdom are complete, Buddhahood will naturally arise as the result, and nothing, absolutely nothing can stop this process.

    ~ Chamtrul Rinpoche

    David
Sign In or Register to comment.