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Do all spiritual paths lead to the same ultimate goal?
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I used to be a determined militant atheist. I would consider the metaphysics of Buddhism for example, as absolute useless as they could not be verified by the scientific method. My path was to live life to the fullest, enjoy it and die after living a good life. However, this didn't go the way I expected. The more I tried to ignore the reality of Samsara, the stronger it got: what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What happens after death? Why do we suffer? And then I began to see the limits of the path I was in... Not only I still had the same unresolved doubts I had classified as "useless" to have -because they could not be verified by science / logic- but I had the gut instinct there was something more, something I was not seeing. Paraphrasing Ajahn Sona, I confused freedom, which is to see things clearly as they are with being able to do what I wanted to do.
Slowly, I realised how much time I was wasting in a hedonistic and highly egoistic lifestyle. I like the term "confused" to describe my state. After exploring different paths -including a few months assisting to the local ISKCON temple - I started meditation and the study of Buddhism last year.
From my experience so far, I sense that, while some paths share the same road, even check-points / inns / scene points, there is a last trek that is more specific. In this sense, I'm starting to consider Buddhism as this ultimate path..
Why Buddhism? I perceive this practice as extremely beneficial for humankind and how its metaphysics actually make a lot of sense to me. It blends a perfect combination of faith, logic, and personal experience. Unlike the excessive bhakti -devotion- expected in ISKCON or the Catholic Church. It has helped me to change my life in an unprecedented way
Anyhow, I'm still learning..
6
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I think a lot of westerners have somewhat turned away from faith and belief, and have instead gone the route of testing the teachings. What can’t be tested is set to one side, and people focus on what they know. It’s not such a bad route.
In a way belief, taking things on faith, opens you up to a whole lot of untruth from various sources. It could be said to be rather unhealthy because of that. Science is a great movement towards a cleaner, more proven set of ideas.
But Buddhism has a lot of material that is well-proven, so if you want to go that way then Buddhism is not a bad direction to move into.
A path of meditation which relies solely on self effort is often limited in getting beyond the self.
A path of faith/devotion which relies solely on external graces is often limited in any facing of the self.
I think those two paths are like the left and right feet of the practitioner walking by those who are trying to hop their way on a single foot along the path towards suffering's cessation.
Regarding the initial question -do all spiritual paths lead to the same ultimate goal- I would like to express some confusion and stress caused from today's meditation session with my "physical" sangha.
It seems I'm not so determined or inclined to their specific school / lineage and this is making me a bit uneasy. This meaning, I'm not sure if Vajrayana is my path, if I compare it to the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition or Zen. Yes, I know. Huge differences... hence the use of the word confusion. I know they both share certain groundworks, but when to know which path to choose or incline yourself towards?
The issue here is getting out from Samsara, but sometimes I feel I would like just to explore all the different paths in depth, without any discrimination -I think this is called perennial philosophy-. I have studied History and have a scholarly / intellectual inclination towards most things in life. I love learning and dwelling deep, but sometimes I feel I'm just wasting my time when I could dedicate myself to one path.
The question is, which one? Why can't my gut tell me? Why is this so hard? Maybe, like we say in Spain...
"Las prisas son malas consejeras." Translates roughly to .."Rushing will make you take poor decisions." or the more literal.... "The rushes (las prisas) are (son) malas (poor) consejeras (advisors)".
Sorry for sharing my confusion, but I feel I will get some great answers here!
2
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Honestly I don’t think you can make a bad decision when you know relatively little. With Buddhism you often end up learning the basics several times so you’re not likely to waste any time.
Vajrayana — check to see if the colourful Tibetan tradition is going to be a problem; there’s likely to be deity visualisation and all sorts of ceremonies, some people like it
Thai Forest — be aware that there is a lot of letting go and renouncing on this path, although there is also a deep scholarly approach
Zen — practice is the heart of Zen, so check whether that suits you
Regarding the initial question -do all spiritual paths lead to the same ultimate goal- I would like to express some confusion and stress caused from today's meditation session with my "physical" sangha.
It seems I'm not so determined or inclined to their specific school / lineage and this is making me a bit uneasy. This meaning, I'm not sure if Vajrayana is my path, if I compare it to the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition or Zen. Yes, I know. Huge differences... hence the use of the word confusion. I know they both share certain groundworks, but when to know which path to choose or incline yourself towards?
The issue here is getting out from Samsara, but sometimes I feel I would like just to explore all the different paths in depth, without any discrimination -I think this is called perennial philosophy-. I have studied History and have a scholarly / intellectual inclination towards most things in life. I love learning and dwelling deep, but sometimes I feel I'm just wasting my time when I could dedicate myself to one path.
The question is, which one? Why can't my gut tell me? Why is this so hard? Maybe, like we say in Spain...
"Las prisas son malas consejeras." Translates roughly to .."Rushing will make you take poor decisions." or the more literal.... "The rushes (las prisas) are (son) malas (poor) consejeras (advisors)".
Sorry for sharing my confusion, but I feel I will get some great answers here!
A couple of Zen scented thoughts came up from your posting on doubt and skill sets.
In addition to a binary approach when questioning whether to stick with a particular practice or not....
I think the question of feeling a bit of distance from a Buddhist school can be just representative of the 1st Noble truth. A Buddhist school or practice can no more be expected to be complete than we are and when we do eventually find that we were always complete, then that school or practice can be seen as complete in the same way.
Much of our potential suffering from a Sangha can arise simply from a commonly mistaken assumption that we should know that a practice/Sangha is "ours", when in fact all we need to know is if it is helping us become more compassionate, loving & wise.
This is not to suggest that you stay or leave, just that your dis satisfaction with your Sangha might not really be the whole question and perhaps you might try a meditative screening of that particular question through the 4 NT & 8 FP to see what comes up.
This question though can be made a bit more complex in faith & devotionally oriented schools by Sangha's who view all doubt as a failing of understanding of a practice and widely transmit such thoughts to the congregation at large and particularly to any practitioner who is not demonstrating themselves to be a complete team player.
The second thought is about Buddhist practitioners who have a scholarly/intellectual inclination towards most things in life. One of the surprises in making our way beyond the limitations of our own identity sandboxes is finding out how often what we thought was our life skill, turns out to also be the architect & maintenance crew of those sandbox walls.
This statement is just to have you consider that sometime using your main life honed skill sets, because that's what you've always done, is really only a re enforcement of long standing habituated behaviors, when less commonly used skill sets that are also less imbedded with self are what is really called for.
This is related to the uncover or reveal thread ... Refinement or revelation/awakening? When we are in part a continuum of unfolding into the finer qualities and better being ... across time.
Detached intensity, what is sometimes concentration/focus/seeking is part of the skill set. Also:
Generosity (related to heart opening)
Intellectual scrutiny (part of the thinking rite)
Silly righteousness (not so sila sukha sucker)
Fun not fanna (dervish annihilation)
Becoming head gear (see right thunking, previously mentioned)
This morning I was effing and blinding (swearing) at breakfast.
I'll take any remedies/wisdom from any sauce (especially fish). I am very unreasonable when hungry ...
Buddhist dharma often focusses on two qualities; wisdom and compassion.
Here is one of my heroes, Bodhi 'Al' Kipper/Khidr who constantly ride back and forth from the afar shore. She serves dervishes at times of extreme need (eh ... not breakfast)
I feel the same way. But from their point of view, my teacher says I should be careful in spending too much time exploring all the paths. I should pick one, regardless if it is the lineage he follows or not, and follow it 'till the end.
sighsunresolved teenage angst mixes with mid-life crisis and greying hair Ahh! dynamite
Anyways.... he is a good man! I understand his concerns as well as his determination towards continuing his guru's legacy, but this has brought me to consider how I want to keep developing. This meaning, most likely finish the introductory course I'm doing, and then move on, keeping contact with them for meditation, but not for further "instruction".
Not saying here that I have any thought that you should stay or you should go but...
You could also empathize that from a teachers perspective, he has this medicine of understanding to address sufferings cause and has people continually dropping by looking for some suave to address their state of duress.
Not finding it quite to their liking they continue on their way to look for it elsewhere and what he continually sees is that folks are just not sticking with his medicine regime long enough to see it's results.
&
in everyone's practice they will eventually come up against personal spiritual issues uncomfortable enough that only some prior development of commitment would allow them to keep facing.
So because there is some obvious underlying truth to all of this and coupled with how self serving it also is to any teachers legacy....You will probably hear warnings of the potentially real issue of guru hopping where ever you go.
G. de Nerval, who had a pet lobster named Thibault which he took for walks in the Palais Royal gardens in Paris on the end of a blue silk ribbon, on being accused of lacking any religion, said, “What? Me, no religion? Why, I have at least seventeen of them!” https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-lamborn-wilson-anarchist-religion
There's programs which entail lots of high intensity running, which if you're young and robust, they will work. But applied to the 'wrong body' and the 'wrong stage of development' then they may cause harm.
There's other running programs which contain low intensity training, and they focus on building volume (time on feet); they're safer, less likely to injure, yet will still improve your running speed endurance.
And there's programs which will contain both high intensity and low intensity running.
Which type of program is best for you?
The one which suits your fitness levels, training age and personality. Not everyone it suitable for lots of high intensity training. Nor is everyone suitable for long, slow, plods.
But all these running programs will lead to an increase in aerobic fitness.
I think spiritual paths are like this.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
Why shouldn't they be?
Thus have I heard:
"Meditation is how Buddhists pray."
Yes or to put it another way no.
In this sense we should be unsettled by certainty but as humans (mostly) we need to narrow/focus but be yond myopic.
In other words be a Yond ... not sure how but it is yond.
Yours in the Yonderous.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Kerome said:
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
Why shouldn't they be?
Thus have I heard:
"Meditation is how Buddhists pray."
Well, one is focussed on talking, the other on silence. I’m sure there are other differences...
@Kerome said:
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
There are contemplative Christians who meditate.
Granted we're talking in generalities.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
Why shouldn't they be?
Thus have I heard:
"Meditation is how Buddhists pray."
Well, one is focussed on talking, the other on silence. I’m sure there are other differences...
Not all Prayer is vocalised. "Be Still And Know That I Am God." (Psalm 46:10)
Not all meditation is silent. "Om Mani Padme H'ng" (6-syllable Seed Mantra)
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@lobster said:
Ultimately just a few decades away from death ... maybe we need to be a little more committed?
It can be difficult to tell, is the path working? Are we actually going anywhere at all? Being more committed is one option, we can spend more hours in practice, mantra recitation, meditation, chanting, prostrations, all kinds of aspects to our buddhistry.
I am a great fan of what works, for me over the past five years it has been letting go, acceptance, insight, mindfulness. These are the things that made a real difference.
I am a great fan of what works, for me over the past five years it has been letting go, acceptance, insight, mindfulness. These are the things that made a real difference.
Those of us who have felt and experienced a difference are not readily impressed by what does not work. So what works is different for each but includes the qualities or focus that @kerome mentions.
Each of us has baggage/karma but also we have strengths to share. Using this friendly sharing and encouragement, we can be sure the spiritual/the Buddha Way/the path of our life can be altered. For the betterment ...
Comments
Indeed.
There we are on a path, maybe fully, maybe fanatically, maybe half heartedly. Then the comfort life blanket is pulled from under us.
Now where are we? We are where we have always been, a road so wide it covers all directions. We never crossed it. Walked or ran it.
As I said to The Buddha - Now that you are in the paras (para nirvana) will you ever be going, going ... gone!
Do all ultimate goals lead, follow or ... or ... [lobster wanders off to kick the referee - purely in the interests of fair play ...]
Golly, it’s the pathless path.
Yes through a gateless gate...
And a selfless self.
What is a spiritual path?
I used to be a determined militant atheist. I would consider the metaphysics of Buddhism for example, as absolute useless as they could not be verified by the scientific method. My path was to live life to the fullest, enjoy it and die after living a good life. However, this didn't go the way I expected. The more I tried to ignore the reality of Samsara, the stronger it got: what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What happens after death? Why do we suffer? And then I began to see the limits of the path I was in... Not only I still had the same unresolved doubts I had classified as "useless" to have -because they could not be verified by science / logic- but I had the gut instinct there was something more, something I was not seeing. Paraphrasing Ajahn Sona, I confused freedom, which is to see things clearly as they are with being able to do what I wanted to do.
Slowly, I realised how much time I was wasting in a hedonistic and highly egoistic lifestyle. I like the term "confused" to describe my state. After exploring different paths -including a few months assisting to the local ISKCON temple
- I started meditation and the study of Buddhism last year.
From my experience so far, I sense that, while some paths share the same road, even check-points / inns / scene points, there is a last trek that is more specific. In this sense, I'm starting to consider Buddhism as this ultimate path..
Why Buddhism? I perceive this practice as extremely beneficial for humankind and how its metaphysics actually make a lot of sense to me. It blends a perfect combination of faith, logic, and personal experience. Unlike the excessive bhakti -devotion- expected in ISKCON or the Catholic Church. It has helped me to change my life in an unprecedented way
Anyhow, I'm still learning..
Well said @コチシカ
I think a lot of westerners have somewhat turned away from faith and belief, and have instead gone the route of testing the teachings. What can’t be tested is set to one side, and people focus on what they know. It’s not such a bad route.
In a way belief, taking things on faith, opens you up to a whole lot of untruth from various sources. It could be said to be rather unhealthy because of that. Science is a great movement towards a cleaner, more proven set of ideas.
But Buddhism has a lot of material that is well-proven, so if you want to go that way then Buddhism is not a bad direction to move into.
A path of meditation which relies solely on self effort is often limited in getting beyond the self.
A path of faith/devotion which relies solely on external graces is often limited in any facing of the self.
I think those two paths are like the left and right feet of the practitioner walking by those who are trying to hop their way on a single foot along the path towards suffering's cessation.
Hello.
Regarding the initial question -do all spiritual paths lead to the same ultimate goal- I would like to express some confusion and stress caused from today's meditation session with my "physical" sangha.
It seems I'm not so determined or inclined to their specific school / lineage and this is making me a bit uneasy. This meaning, I'm not sure if Vajrayana is my path, if I compare it to the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition or Zen. Yes, I know. Huge differences... hence the use of the word confusion. I know they both share certain groundworks, but when to know which path to choose or incline yourself towards?
The issue here is getting out from Samsara, but sometimes I feel I would like just to explore all the different paths in depth, without any discrimination -I think this is called perennial philosophy-. I have studied History and have a scholarly / intellectual inclination towards most things in life. I love learning and dwelling deep, but sometimes I feel I'm just wasting my time when I could dedicate myself to one path.
The question is, which one? Why can't my gut tell me? Why is this so hard? Maybe, like we say in Spain...
"Las prisas son malas consejeras." Translates roughly to .."Rushing will make you take poor decisions." or the more literal.... "The rushes (las prisas) are (son) malas (poor) consejeras (advisors)".
Sorry for sharing my confusion, but I feel I will get some great answers here!
Honestly I don’t think you can make a bad decision when you know relatively little. With Buddhism you often end up learning the basics several times so you’re not likely to waste any time.
Vajrayana — check to see if the colourful Tibetan tradition is going to be a problem; there’s likely to be deity visualisation and all sorts of ceremonies, some people like it
Thai Forest — be aware that there is a lot of letting go and renouncing on this path, although there is also a deep scholarly approach
Zen — practice is the heart of Zen, so check whether that suits you
A couple of Zen scented thoughts came up from your posting on doubt and skill sets.
In addition to a binary approach when questioning whether to stick with a particular practice or not....
I think the question of feeling a bit of distance from a Buddhist school can be just representative of the 1st Noble truth. A Buddhist school or practice can no more be expected to be complete than we are and when we do eventually find that we were always complete, then that school or practice can be seen as complete in the same way.
Much of our potential suffering from a Sangha can arise simply from a commonly mistaken assumption that we should know that a practice/Sangha is "ours", when in fact all we need to know is if it is helping us become more compassionate, loving & wise.
This is not to suggest that you stay or leave, just that your dis satisfaction with your Sangha might not really be the whole question and perhaps you might try a meditative screening of that particular question through the 4 NT & 8 FP to see what comes up.
This question though can be made a bit more complex in faith & devotionally oriented schools by Sangha's who view all doubt as a failing of understanding of a practice and widely transmit such thoughts to the congregation at large and particularly to any practitioner who is not demonstrating themselves to be a complete team player.
The second thought is about Buddhist practitioners who have a scholarly/intellectual inclination towards most things in life. One of the surprises in making our way beyond the limitations of our own identity sandboxes is finding out how often what we thought was our life skill, turns out to also be the architect & maintenance crew of those sandbox walls.
This statement is just to have you consider that sometime using your main life honed skill sets, because that's what you've always done, is really only a re enforcement of long standing habituated behaviors, when less commonly used skill sets that are also less imbedded with self are what is really called for.
Great answer from our resident zennie.
This is related to the uncover or reveal thread ... Refinement or revelation/awakening? When we are in part a continuum of unfolding into the finer qualities and better being ... across time.
Detached intensity, what is sometimes concentration/focus/seeking is part of the skill set. Also:
More details without requesting ...
Come on.....with that last answer
the real swinging of the Zen jewels around here is probably from a resident crustacean.
I don't even know why you feel you must decide. I mean, what's your hurry? Why do you think you have to make a decision at all?
This morning I was effing and blinding (swearing) at breakfast.
I'll take any remedies/wisdom from any sauce (especially fish). I am very unreasonable when hungry ...
Buddhist dharma often focusses on two qualities; wisdom and compassion.
Here is one of my heroes, Bodhi 'Al' Kipper/Khidr who constantly ride back and forth from the afar shore. She serves dervishes at times of extreme need (eh ... not breakfast)
Cod is Greater - Allah Hack Bar
http://ridingaspiral.blogspot.com/2011/04/al-khidr-green-man-of-sufism.html
@federica
I feel the same way. But from their point of view, my teacher says I should be careful in spending too much time exploring all the paths. I should pick one, regardless if it is the lineage he follows or not, and follow it 'till the end.
sighs unresolved teenage angst mixes with mid-life crisis and greying hair Ahh! dynamite
Anyways.... he is a good man! I understand his concerns as well as his determination towards continuing his guru's legacy, but this has brought me to consider how I want to keep developing. This meaning, most likely finish the introductory course I'm doing, and then move on, keeping contact with them for meditation, but not for further "instruction".
I hope I made sense here..
For y'all peace!
@コチシカ
Not saying here that I have any thought that you should stay or you should go but...
You could also empathize that from a teachers perspective, he has this medicine of understanding to address sufferings cause and has people continually dropping by looking for some suave to address their state of duress.
Not finding it quite to their liking they continue on their way to look for it elsewhere and what he continually sees is that folks are just not sticking with his medicine regime long enough to see it's results.
&
in everyone's practice they will eventually come up against personal spiritual issues uncomfortable enough that only some prior development of commitment would allow them to keep facing.
So because there is some obvious underlying truth to all of this and coupled with how self serving it also is to any teachers legacy....You will probably hear warnings of the potentially real issue of guru hopping where ever you go.
G. de Nerval, who had a pet lobster named Thibault which he took for walks in the Palais Royal gardens in Paris on the end of a blue silk ribbon, on being accused of lacking any religion, said, “What? Me, no religion? Why, I have at least seventeen of them!”
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-lamborn-wilson-anarchist-religion
I'll join if I get a blue ribbon ... 🏴
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/nerval01-5717efdf3df78c3fa26b0359.jpg)
If I may use running as a metaphor?
There's programs which entail lots of high intensity running, which if you're young and robust, they will work. But applied to the 'wrong body' and the 'wrong stage of development' then they may cause harm.
There's other running programs which contain low intensity training, and they focus on building volume (time on feet); they're safer, less likely to injure, yet will still improve your running speed endurance.
And there's programs which will contain both high intensity and low intensity running.
Which type of program is best for you?
The one which suits your fitness levels, training age and personality. Not everyone it suitable for lots of high intensity training. Nor is everyone suitable for long, slow, plods.
But all these running programs will lead to an increase in aerobic fitness.
I think spiritual paths are like this.
It’s a nice metaphor @tosh, but I do wonder. A Christian might exercise his prayer muscles, while a Buddhist might exercise his meditation muscles. Do we think those are the same?
Why shouldn't they be?
Thus have I heard:
"Meditation is how Buddhists pray."
Yes or to put it another way no.
In this sense we should be unsettled by certainty but as humans (mostly) we need to narrow/focus but be yond myopic.
In other words be a Yond ... not sure how but it is yond.
Yours in the Yonderous.
Well, one is focussed on talking, the other on silence. I’m sure there are other differences...
There are contemplative Christians who meditate.
Granted we're talking in generalities.
Not all Prayer is vocalised. "Be Still And Know That I Am God." (Psalm 46:10)
Not all meditation is silent. "Om Mani Padme H'ng" (6-syllable Seed Mantra)
The usual entrees on a Buddhist practice menu are....
All is one and all is different.
not
All is one or all is different.
One offers some transcendence within a practice
while the other,
offers some flirtation with a duality.
Hands and claws up those who are on a spiritual oath path?
We may be on a repair path because we are broken? Or:
Well now, what are the results?
Ultimately just a few decades away from death ... maybe we need to be a little more committed?
https://www.tarabrach.com/taking-refuge-in-the-buddha/
eh ... what was the question again?
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnbeckett/2015/07/5-reasons-you-cant-find-the-right-spiritual-path.html
It can be difficult to tell, is the path working? Are we actually going anywhere at all? Being more committed is one option, we can spend more hours in practice, mantra recitation, meditation, chanting, prostrations, all kinds of aspects to our buddhistry.
I am a great fan of what works, for me over the past five years it has been letting go, acceptance, insight, mindfulness. These are the things that made a real difference.
Those of us who have felt and experienced a difference are not readily impressed by what does not work. So what works is different for each but includes the qualities or focus that @kerome mentions.
Each of us has baggage/karma but also we have strengths to share. Using this friendly sharing and encouragement, we can be sure the spiritual/the Buddha Way/the path of our life can be altered. For the betterment ...