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Wrong Practice

lobsterlobster Veteran
edited June 10 in Buddhism Today

As an un-Buddhist/X-Buddhist/unbeliever etc. I may be a Buddhist. There is nothing wrong with that. After all finding out where we are wrong is a practice in empathy. You mean we missed world empathy day yesterday? Surely some mistake ...

Where have you gone wrong and found the stream/path again?

For me it is in undervaluing the voices of the unreasonable. Come to think of it I may be one of them ...

Come, come, whoever you are!
If you are an unbeliever, an idolater or a fire worshipper: it matters not.
Our dargah is not a place of despair.
Come, even if you have broken your vows a hundred times!
Come, come again!

Bodhi Rumi
http://sufi-tavern.com/sufi-stories/self-mastery/

or then again ...
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/resources/texts.html#3

Maybe we are just naturally all over the path? Back and forth as in the zennith mahamudra and consumerist dzogchen @how mentions in the next post ... ?

Kerome

Comments

  • adamcrossleyadamcrossley Veteran UK Veteran

    When I start to get worried about Views, I know I’ve gone wrong. For example, is violent protest right or wrong? It doesn’t really matter—it’s happening regardless. For me, getting back on the Path is realising it’s more important to understand than to hold a View.

    Thanks for the post @lobster 💛

    personBunkslobster
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @lobster said:
    As an un-Buddhist/X-Buddhist/unbeliever etc. I may be a Buddhist. There is nothing wrong with that. After all finding out where we are wrong is a practice in empathy. You mean we missed world empathy day yesterday? Surely some mistake ...

    If you say you are a Buddhist, then you are a Buddhist. There is no membership pin or certificate, no requirement for so many years of service. It is easy. Though you may be a bad Buddhist and resigned to accumulating much bad karma...

    For me it is in undervaluing the voices of the unreasonable. Come to think of it I may be one of them ...

    Much of the unreasonable comes out as poetry, as Bodhi Rumi aptly demonstrates. Often your posts also have something of the poetic in them. The idea of Metta, of sending good wishes to everyone, is also not reasonable.

    Come, come, whoever you are!
    If you are an unbeliever, an idolater or a fire worshipper: it matters not.
    Our dargah is not a place of despair.
    Come, even if you have broken your vows a hundred times!
    Come, come again!

    Bodhi Rumi
    http://sufi-tavern.com/sufi-stories/self-mastery/

    or then again ...
    http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/resources/texts.html#3

    The unreasonable is a wide field. There is much to be experienced alongside those who profess crazy wisdom, and it can be both positive and negative.

    Maybe we are just naturally all over the path? Back and forth as in the zennith mahamudra and consumerist dzogchen @how mentions in the next post ... ?

    It is only when you start following Osho that you need to worry 😆

    AlexShoshinlobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 12

    For me, getting back on the Path is realising it’s more important to understand than to hold a View.

    That is interesting because I find understanding encompasses the criss-crossing that @how mentions. In other words we may hold a view and find its opposite has value, we may even move to a temporary polarity. Understanding in this sense is not possible as a singularity, also it is not a dukkha doubt or dogmatic faith or principle.

    It is fluid to the point of dissolving ...

    Example: concentration type exercises are a focus but meditation focusses without tightening (ideally). Another example used in conflict resolution. Switch roles in order to gain insight into another position ...

    These knots of 'right practice' are broken by the crazy wisdom @Kerome mentions. Which is never abusive but may confront our certainties.

    This is maybe why I find Taoism so helpful. Offering a yin-yang change at the moment we thought the water was just right ... 🦞

    adamcrossleyperson
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    For me, getting back on the Path is realising it’s more important to understand than to hold a View.

    In Sufi lore/dharma we never leave the spiritual path. For life itself is the vehicle of forgetting (ignorance) and remembering (attention/mindfulness).

    I like this word understand - to stand under hopefully wisdom and ambrosia, blessing and refuge if you will.

    コチシカ
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @lobster said:
    In Sufi lore/dharma we never leave the spiritual path. For life itself is the vehicle of forgetting (ignorance) and remembering (attention/mindfulness).

    I really like this, I think it is so. As soon as you enter the spiritual life, you never leave it again, you carry it with you. And a nice illustration of the connection between sufism and buddhism.

    I like this word understand - to stand under hopefully wisdom and ambrosia, blessing and refuge if you will.

    It puts me in mind of Da Free John, who talked quite a bit about ‘the man of understanding’ as the goal of his spiritual journey.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    I hope to enter or leave the spiritual path any moment now ... o:)

    In other words purposefully going nowhere until arrival/departure ...

    In a sense we can only succeed in our search for Nibanna by acceptable failings. In other words not being spiritual as a dichotomy but as an encompassing.

    For example in my Covid shielding garden, after rain or watering the Future Buddhas, who are the Present Buddha Nature come in order, spiders on silk, preparing for hunting, flies, then bees. Then sun and birds. So I am in the Pureland.

    Alexコチシカ
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran
    edited July 6

    Not sure if this is totally a Dharmic wrong turn, or really a wrong turn at all but more of an new understanding.

    I tend to approach disagreements and opinions contrary to mine as valuable opportunities to increase my own understanding. And perhaps naively I think I was assuming that others generally try to do the same. On Facebook, perhaps not the best place to look for positive examples, I entered the comment thread on a story where one side of a political disagreement was making efforts in the direction of the other. None of the comments acknowledged that fact though, they all continued to criticize other aspects of the opposing "team".

    Anyway, I guess I sort of realized that many people aren't really interested in truth but are in it to win points for their side. Why bother searching for greater understanding when you're already always right?

    Its kind of depressing and I'm not sure how to process it. I'm thinking the people most likely to post or speak out are probably the one's with the hardest opinions and that there are those on the margins listening in who may still be open to other views or compromise.

    ETA: I'm ruminating over the idea that it may be too late to try to bring about some sort of unity or understanding and that things may have to get worse, hopefully not a lot worse, before they get better. I think I still believe in finding a third way though so maybe I can put efforts in with others to build a path or a frame for people to find when they too have had enough and decide to lay down their arms.

    I'm trying to be hopeful and optimistic, I'm just having this feeling I can't shake that the US is headed towards another civil war, maybe only a cold one, and that a break up of the country may be at its end.

    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    @person I used to be like that only before the internet. It was like a contest to me 'winning' an argument/discussion and I learned it arguing points with my brother. I remember realizing that fact and over time eventually changing my tendency to do that.

    lobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 6

    If everything changes, and we actually understand this, then an idea represents this truth only as long as we are prepared to re-visit its validity within each new moment.

    Here, an opinion is little more than an idea held in higher esteem than impermanence's truth.

    personlobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran

    @how said:
    If everything changes, and we actually understand this, then an idea represent this truth only as long as we are prepared to re-visit its validity within each new moment.

    Here, an opinion is little more than an idea held in higher esteem than impermanence's truth.

    Definitely, I guess for me though I believe in rational debate and an open but skeptical attitude. So if my opinion is to yield to impermanence it needs to win my own personal, intellectual king of the hill.

    @Jeffrey said:
    @person I used to be like that only before the internet. It was like a contest to me 'winning' an argument/discussion and I learned it arguing points with my brother. I remember realizing that fact and over time eventually changing my tendency to do that.

    Thanks, that's an important point that we do need to yield to good arguments and opinions rather than saying whatever we need to do to win. I think what I was reacting to was something more. Rather than just about winning any particular differing battle of opinions, it was more about the winning the whole ideological war. Where one side couldn't acknowledge, let alone appreciate, any movement from the other side because that might strengthen their opponent or weaken their own position.

    Jeffrey
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    I suspect that debates on even moderately strongly held opinions are often a waste of time, and mostly just lead to rancorous exchanges. I often just make my opinion known and then withdraw from the discussion, considering it not worth my time or effort to try and change a mind. Most people just are not very rational.

    personコチシカlobsterAlex
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Win an argument? Pah!
    Change a mind field ... much healthier ... but how?

    Present extremes.

    Fortuitously The Truth does not side.

    The calmest being sits in the line of fire. It is always dead still.

    person
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Wrong Practice

    Can there truly be such a thing as wrong practice ?

    Things are meant to happen as they happen and can't happen any other way than the way they happen at that present moment in time...

    No right or wrong practice...just practice...with fluctuating levels of skillfulness, due to one's ongoing karmic patterns

    In the ultimate scheme of things... for it to be wrong it would have never happened/unfolded...Hmm a paradox of sorts....

    However in the conventional world of duelistic thinking , labels of right & wrong are used to describe the outcomes or possible outcomes of actions both physical & mental ...based upon likes dislikes...good evil.......which in turn are based upon the skill levels of the action performer ....

    Perhaps at times one may not have developed the special skills needed to produce a beneficial outcome...a karmic spanner in the works so to speak....

    When it comes to practice and the twists & turns of the Path.... I'm reminded of Thay's simple sentence of four words..

    "No Mud...No Lotus"

    So it would seem we are all on the wrong right track, it's just that some leaves are not as easy to turn over as others...

    personlobsterRen_in_black
  • DavidDavid some guy Veteran
    edited July 6

    @Kerome said:
    I suspect that debates on even moderately strongly held opinions are often a waste of time, and mostly just lead to rancorous exchanges. I often just make my opinion known and then withdraw from the discussion, considering it not worth my time or effort to try and change a mind. Most people just are not very rational.

    Sometimes making our opinion known is the hard part. I find some people purposely misunderstand an argument just to put the topic off course with many calls to clarification in an effort to trip up their "opponent".

    @person said:
    Not sure if this is totally a Dharmic wrong turn, or really a wrong turn at all but more of an new understanding.

    I tend to approach disagreements and opinions contrary to mine as valuable opportunities to increase my own understanding. And perhaps naively I think I was assuming that others generally try to do the same. On Facebook, perhaps not the best place to look for positive examples, I entered the comment thread on a story where one side of a political disagreement was making efforts in the direction of the other. None of the comments acknowledged that fact though, they all continued to criticize other aspects of the opposing "team".

    Anyway, I guess I sort of realized that many people aren't really interested in truth but are in it to win points for their side. Why bother searching for greater understanding when you're already always right?

    Its kind of depressing and I'm not sure how to process it. I'm thinking the people most likely to post or speak out are probably the one's with the hardest opinions and that there are those on the margins listening in who may still be open to other views or compromise.

    ETA: I'm ruminating over the idea that it may be too late to try to bring about some sort of unity or understanding and that things may have to get worse, hopefully not a lot worse, before they get better. I think I still believe in finding a third way though so maybe I can put efforts in with others to build a path or a frame for people to find when they too have had enough and decide to lay down their arms.

    I'm trying to be hopeful and optimistic, I'm just having this feeling I can't shake that the US is headed towards another civil war, maybe only a cold one, and that a break up of the country may be at its end.

    I have to say the States aren't looking too good from Canada. Please stay safe and maybe take heart in the idea of the world coming together even as the States may be falling apart. Hold on until November and then hold on even tighter.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran
    edited July 6

    @Shoshin said:
    Wrong Practice

    Can there truly be such a thing as wrong practice ?...

    "No Mud...No Lotus"

    Or as Ajahn Brahm puts it, its all manure for the mango trees.

    DavidShoshinlobster
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The Void Veteran
    edited July 6

    @David said:

    I have to say the States aren't looking too good from Canada. Please stay safe and maybe take heart in the idea of the world coming together even as the States may be falling apart.

    Maybe I'll be joining you after it all goes down. 😄

    ShoshinhowlobsterKerome
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    We should not make fun of Canadians, even if some of them are a little too Frenchist or anti-Jesusists :expressionless:

    Tee Hee then again ...
    .. ziz-zag, yin-yang is just one way to be wrong ...

    We can with sufficient practice be right wrongish on a variety of levels simultaneously.

    So for example sutra/scripture may hold a variety of meanings all at once. Traditionally in Sufism seven ...
    https://fgulen.com/en/fethullah-gulens-works/key-concepts-in-the-practice-of-sufism-3/gods-friend-saint-and-gods-friends-saints

    and now back to the righteous dharma ...

  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    @lobster said:
    We should not make fun of Canadians

    Shall we add that to the Precepts? ;)

    lobsterShoshin
  • Ren_in_blackRen_in_black Georgia Explorer

    @Shoshin said:
    for it to be wrong it would have never happened

    But don't we practice because everything is wrong?

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited July 8

    @Ren_in_black said:

    @Shoshin said:
    for it to be wrong it would have never happened

    But don't we practice because everything is wrong?

    In a sense yes.....

    But Right & Wrong are relative...and from what "I" gather we practice because we find certain things unsatisfactory and things are unsatisfactory because we judge things on a Right & Wrong bases and we more often than not, do this to the extremes...

    "NO Mud...No Lotus" =No Wrong...No Right...No Balance...

    lobsterRen_in_black
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Ren_in_black said:
    But don't we practice because everything is wrong?

    It is not completely wrong ... but has a component of this quality. As @Shoshin mentions it is us wrong uns/disenlightened/unbalanced/ignorants who do not encompass the possibilities beyond polarities and paradoxies ...

    We are the hole and the Whole. Not in it?

    howコチシカ
  • コチシカコチシカ Berlin, Germany Explorer

    @lobster

    Beautifully put!

    Today I thought about this thread while heading to the chiro. And considered how getting too attached to non attachment is probably one of the wrong outcomes while practicing. It could be considered wrong practice, but at least there is an engagement. Inevitably the path will open up. Or, even if rejected..it will come up.

    **TANGENT -
    **
    Samsara has to have an end...at least theoretically, no?. And then, it starts once again. It is like when we are meditating, but then we are flooded with discursive thought, emotions, etc. The cycle breaks off Nibbana. But then Nibbana is ultimate. So how does it generate itself? I know it is said that the vastness of Nibbana cannot be understood and it is futile, but if anyone wants to share their view on this...I'm interested! :)

    -

    Some of you have mentioned the importance of simplicity, naturalness during one's practice. As long as this is followed, and there is some mindful appreciation towards the precepts or teachings based on them, the dhamma, it is good enough already. Therefore, I think I would be careful when labelling something as wrong practice, except for myself.

    PD:

    lobsterRen_in_black
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    @コチシカ said:

    Some of you have mentioned the importance of simplicity, naturalness during one's practice. As long as this is followed, and there is some mindful appreciation towards the precepts or teachings based on them, the dhamma, it is good enough already. Therefore, I think I would be careful when labelling something as wrong practice, except for myself.

    I like this

    The usual intent behind defining anything, has as it's basis, a self oriented program running to maintain the dream of our own specialness.
    This is simply us seeking to establish a separation between self and others, make the chaotic nature of existence into something more controllable, convince ourselves that we will continue to exist beyond deaths door, and a host of other similar dream production support structures.
    Here, reality has a flawed foundation with duality as its substrate, where the answers about Samadhi/Nirvana/practice/ enlightenment become skewed even before the questions can be asked.

    Each nano sliver of time is another seeker in another existence with another choice to make in how to meet it.

    There is ignorance and there is the absence of ignorance.
    There is a self in a dream and there is an awakening from that dream.

    Just who is this self with a right or wrong practice?

    コチシカlobsterRen_in_blackShoshin
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