Right Speech
marcitko
Veteran
Hello everyone,
About a week ago, the topic of "Right Speech" opened up for me in the sense that I am more able to work on it, want to work on it, and see the value of it. With speech we greatly influence both ourselves and others. So let it be high-quality speech or "Right Speech".
As is often the case for me, I quickly entered into a dilemma. This is because I was aware of the Buddhist concept of "Right Speech" (granted, not something I researched a lot) but also the idea of "Radical Honesty" proposed here: https://www.radicalhonesty.com/ So my question was: which is better?
Here is what the Buddha had to say on the criteria for what is considered Right Speech (from here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html)
_"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
_
My current conclusion is that the Buddhist concept and practice is better, even though they both probably lead to the same result. This is because it is wider and takes more factors into consideration. This does not mean, in my view, that "Radical Honesty" is wrong, just that the Buddhist concept and practice is better/higher/more beneficial.
However, it seems to me that it is better only on the condition that we are also honest (nearly radically honest with the intention of becoming radically honest once we are perfected) about our thoughts and feelings, which to me falls under Buddha's category of "spoken in truth". If we are using (contrived) "right speech" to cover up and deceive others and ourselves about our true thoughts and feelings, that does not sound so noble to me.
Now that I think of it, I could summarise Buddha's five conditions into "it is spoken in love" or in more Buddhist terms "it is spoken in compassion". If we speak with love and/or compassion, the five criteria in practice seem to naturally fall into place and every time we know, on a gut level, if our proposed speech is wrong on any one of those criteria.
What are your thoughts on right speech? Do you practice it and how? How do you view honesty within right speech?
Comments
The best right speech or the most noble (as in golden) is silence. However we can also use skilful or compassionate speech when enabled.
If we speak with integrity and not just blindly harming ourselves and others through ignorance of our own lack of skill and/or oblivious or uncaring of the effect, we may be telling the truth but will be ostracised, socially awkward or just considered down right rude …
I do practice right speech and find it helpful, in as far as I try to be factual, true, beneficial and pleasing to other people. I’ve always found the Buddha’s sutra to Prince Abhaya to be good in this.
Although I did just respond on another forum to someone with the statement “that’s prime codswallop” which strikes me with a certain irony in retrospect.
At this moment....Right speech is the timely vocalization that best illuminates or manifests the path towards suffering's cessation.
"Speak your Truth. Say it like It Is. There is no reason to do otherwise."
LSD. Awaken the Buddha within.
For a moment I thought you were recommending LSD as a path to speaking the truth
But I did get soon that you meant Lama Surya Das.
OK, so that is more of a "Radical Honesty" approach. The "Right Speech" approach seems to me more contrived, at least in the beginning, with the intention of being more beneficial. How do you see this dilemma? Question to self: Is it even a dilemma?
An example: next time I read a post by you that I feel is, in part of in full, total bullshit, how would you like me to respond? "Honest" or "Right"?
Polite will suffice.
If you're honest, it will be YOUR truth. Whether you are 'Right' or not, will be up for debate, which is both healthy and educational, in both ways.
I never mind being contradicted, providing those wishing to contradict, conduct themselves courteously.
I'd have to go with the Buddha on this as well. The "radical" approach, if I took it, has the potential for me to just say whatever goes through my mind as thought. And we all know how trustworthy knee jerk thoughts can be.
Right speech is still very confusing to me. I agree with you though @lobster, of the types of right speech, noble silence is the best.
It doesn't matter what's said, once produced the results are out of the producer's hands.
Whether it meets the criteria or not upon production and whether it still meets the criteria upon receipt might as well be an infinite game of telephone. And who's to say all understandings of these criteria are the same? When a football team wins, half the stadium celebrates what the other half mourns. I don't see how words can be shared without dukkha.
The sutra to Prince Abhaya on right speech may clarify things for you, @FleaMarket. It’s one of my favourites.
Noble silence is beautiful, I agree, but it is also an advanced form of communication. Ramana Maharshi, an Indian saint from the early 20th century, said that he always first approached people with a silent teaching. If that didn’t work, he would resort to words, talking first about self inquiry, then meditation, and lastly about stories and songs.
We can choose which form of communication is most appropriate for the audience we are faced with, how to inspire and introduce that which is wholesome to them.
It's a good one and you've inspired a thought.
When right speech meets the untamed desire to participate, the mind obfuscates the truth in favor of its desires.
My desire to participate gets the better of me more times than I care to admit. This typically leads to all sorts of problems that often leave one or more people feeling not so great. Not participating leaves me feeling not so great.
In participation, I see dukkha coming from things not being shared rightly.
In non-participation, I see dukkha coming from the sense of self apprehending loneliness.
I believe relief can be found in either learning how to share rightly or learning how to cease apprehending loneliness. Eventually both.
In both cases factors of the Noble Eight-fold Path house the solution. It's only gated by refinement of understanding and the effort behind the refining of that understanding.
Very clearly stated @FleaMarket and I totally see how the same plays out in my life, even with this very post. Thanks for illuminating that.
For us who tend more to the feeling side, may I add a thought? Instead of apprehending loneliness
That with speech we induce in the other the feeling "from which we are coming from" and in ourselves strengthen that feeling. It is not 1 for 1, since as we have already noted, skilful and unskilful speech on our end (delivery) can distort the message and we never know the quality of the receiver/mind on the other end.
From this perspective, it would be important to shut-up when the feeling "that we are coming from" is a negative one and aim to share more freely when it is a positive one.
Right speech is more about correct sharing and knowing when to be silent, these things go together. Learning to be silent without being lonely is a matter of looking within, of realising the connectedness of all things and that you are not truly separate. Loneliness really is the mind being caught up in an illusion of separateness.
But I would also come back to “radical honesty”. This is actually a useful concept when looking at yourself mainly, and others secondarily. The mind often gets caught up in assessing and measuring, and sometimes it is good to cut through that to the questions that lie beyond. So rather than using radical honesty with speech, I would use it within the mind.
I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "from which we are coming from" but it feels like an important point for me to understand. Could you explain this in more detail? I often observe multiple points to come from and have to make a decision on which one and it's kind of a big deal for the direction of the conversation.
The quality of mind is anicca and can't be relied upon to be in any particular condition. However it's mold-able and patience is a virtue.
I believe this is part of the karma we live and a common purpose for practice.
Get lonely, reach out (often when in a negative state), cause pain. Rinse & repeat or learn the escape.
To me it appears the escape is by degrees, just like the cleanliness of a room depends on the thoroughness and frequency of its cleaning. The highest being noble silence.
I fully agree. What's perplexing is how some minds, even when this is understood, will gravitate back toward the illusion on occasion. As if there's a familiarity in the loneliness. Something is being obtained that is ignorantly desired beyond that of the freedom from it. Examining my own sensations leads me to think it's a combination of boredom and "small-self" familiarity.
What's done with the information?
From the perspective of more of a feeler than a thinker these days.
"From which we are coming from" = the feeling we are feeling at the moment.
From my perspective, if you are in a good place emotionally it does not matter much what you say, since people will pick up primarily your feeling. Some Christian saint said: "Love and do what you will". For this purpose we could change it to: "Love and say what you will".
"Multiple points to come from" is (I believe) only possible for the thinking-mind since it changes much faster than feelings and I know very well what you mean since I too am often befuddled in this way.
But we have only one feeling at a time.
That's, at least, how I see it at the moment
This is absolutely right on. If we tell it like it is -- uninvited -- then we certainly won't convince anyone of the correctness of our view, though we may well establish a reputation as an irritant. As the self-righteous unskillfulness of youth clears and recedes, this wisdom becomes more clear to us (though not to all of us in the current lifetime). Every now and then we may be actively invited to tell it like it is. This does not mean we should; not all opportunities should be seized.
Very wise. Since speech comes naturally to us, it can be a good looking glass into the heart. And by conscientiously practicing Right Speech, or Lobster's "Right Speechless" we can run the chain in both directions, and gradually train the heart to follow the words. Making this change requires ADKAR: Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, and Reinforcement. In other words, it's not a change you make by switching one day, it's an ongoing project, with prerequisites and ongoing attention.
My opinion, FWIW is that there are those times when Right Speech requires us to be honest and sometimes "the truth hurts". You can of course sugarcoat it, but as the saying goes "you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter"
IMO you (collectively) need to not confuse Right Speech with Idiot Compassion. We don't have to ALWAYS be 'nice' in order to practise Right Speech. Telling a little white lie to cushion the blow isn't even Right Speech when you look at it shrugs
Just my 0.02
Good thread. As an avid talker who has many times been accused of speaking too bluntly/straight forward, I’ve always gone with the “people who love you, tell you the truth. No chaser” you can trust that. You know what you’re getting.
…of course, I try take in consideration the persons age , circumstances and things/examples they could relate to…but problem solving never happens in silence. Poor communication leads to a lot of misunderstandings and unrealistic expectations. I also think bec I’m fluent in ASL, my speech reflects that. When you have to have discussions, questions and conclusions all with your hands, you learn to leave out alot of filler and feeling words. Just trying to morris code shit, if you will. And yes, I love my cuss words for emphasis, hahaha. I like the way How put it, and I very much agree with what Aunt Fede said about truth and debate.
I will not suffer in silence. ✌🏻🤟🏻👉🏻
AFA lies….we lie to ourselves waaaay more than we lie to others.
AFA giving opinions….if you give yours, I’ll give mine…I’ve been known to give mine even when you didn’t. If you’re talking or venting, but want no feedback….I need you to tell me that bec my ego tells me I’m being compassionate by giving ideas/suggestions/help on ways to avoid that suffering. My heart wants me to support you bec I can see myself easily being in that same human situation.
That being said…. After the age of 45…I realized some people don’t want solutions to their issues and don’t give a rat’s ass how you feel or your opinions… So, I’m still learning not to talk to the wall/person who doesn’t value my speech.