The Other Elephant In The Room

Shoshin1

Al Jazeera
How will Israel react after it's added to a 'list of shame'? | Inside Story

The United Nations is set to announce the addition of Israel to a blacklist of countries and groups who have violated the rights of children during armed conflicts.
Whether any action will be taken, is the responsibility of the UN Security Council.
Some say - at the very least - it could put more diplomatic pressure on Israel.
But would that be enough to bring about real change?
Presenter: Laura Kyle
Guests: Damien Lilly, former head of the protection division at UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees.
Arwa Damon, founder of INARA, the international Network for Aid Relief and Assistance.
Gideon Levy, author and columnist at the Israeli daily paper Haaretz.

Gideon Levy really sheds some light on the psyche of Israeli society

And so does this interesting article from July 2023 in The Times of Jerusalem ...

Israeli security isn’t only a matter of toughness and posturing. It depends on a complex web that includes national solidarity, a strong economy and civil service, confidence in the competence and judgment of our leaders, moral legitimacy of the IDF among our allies, trust among legal authorities abroad that Israel will monitor itself without intervention from the International Court in the Hague. This government threatens every one of those essential preconditions of our self-defense.

The third strain on our democratic norms is religious coercion. No democracy today lives with the burden of such extensive religious legislation – from banning civil marriages performed inside Israel to banning public transportation on Shabbat. Secular Israel desperately requires a strong and independent court to protect it from further religious encroachments.

In practice if not in name, the Netanyahu coalition is Israel’s first Orthodox government: A majority of its MKs are Orthodox, and the government’s agenda is shaped by Orthodox concerns.

Yet Orthodox Jewry is in moral crisis. Both its Haredi and religious Zionist wings are deeply implicated in the most corrupt government in Israel’s history.

What is being fought out in Israel today is at once a practical struggle over democratic institutions and norms, and a theological struggle over the meaning of Zionism and Jewish history. Was the purpose of Zionism to free us from the ghetto or simply to arm it? To allow our wounds to heal or to indulge them?

person

@Shoshin1 said:
The Hill’s ‘Rising’ FIRES Host Briahna Joy Gray Following Her Critiques Of The Israeli Government

I was disappointed to hear about this, what I like about Rising is the cross partisan dialogue. I often found myself agreeing more with Robbie than BJG but think she makes the show worth watching.

I watched the interview and while the nominal reason for her firing did seem a bit distasteful, it hardly rose to the level of a firing offense IMO. I guess the argument is that this was just a veiled justification and what they really wanted to get rid of her for was her criticism of Israel? Considering the nature of Rising that claim seems a bit thin.

Lionduck

Therein is the face of this war. Scores of innocent victims muredered, written off as "unfortunate collateral damage" in the celebration of the liberation of four hostages.

Shoshin1

It's a sad state of affairs, with the anguish of the relatives of hostages "on both sides" not knowing what has happened to their loved ones. I have sympathy for the Israeli woman and share her concerns about her sister. However, it seems as if she has been influenced by the IOF's propaganda team. For example, she does not mention the innocent Palestinian men, women, children, and babies who have been killed by the IOF, nor the thousands locked away in Israeli prisons being tortured. Instead, she tries to spread fear in an attempt to justify Israel's ongoing killing of innocent Palestinian men, women, children and babies by claiming the world is unsafe as long as Hamas is still around.

At the very beginning of Israel's bombardment of Gaza, when reports of rapes, torture, burning, and beheadings were coming out of Israel, international independent organisations were denied permission by the Israeli government to interview some of the survivors. This raised red flags in the West about the legitimacy of these reports. Gradually, some survivors started to share their stories with the West, revealing inconsistencies with Israel's so-called official reports.

I fully understand where Brihana is coming from. She's experienced enough to recognise propaganda, whether the person is intentionally spreading it (knowing it's a fabrication of the truth) or unintentional (gullibly falling for it).

SuraShine

@Lionduck said:
Therein is the face of this war. Scores of innocent victims muredered, written off as "unfortunate collateral damage" in the celebration of the liberation of four hostages.

Maybe don't keep hostages in civilian homes? Maybe DON'T take hostages AT ALL?

Seems to me this thread has devolved into a "fuck Israel and Jews" since no one seems to be a little bit relieved INNOCENT CIVILIANS from Israel are alive and safe. Not to mention the rest of the hostages still in captivity - from OTHER NON JEWISH countries like Thailand who were taken because they dared to work for Jewish families or were tourists in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevermind the PTSD and other trauma they're undoubtedly suffering. But I guess that's ok while you can still blame the Israeli government for stuff sighs

Shoshin1

@Lionduck said:
Therein is the face of this war. Scores of innocent victims muredered, written off as "unfortunate collateral damage" in the celebration of the liberation of four hostages.

Yes so true @Lionduck ...

On our local mainstream news there was a very brief mention of the innocent Palestinians killed in the raid, maybe a couple of seconds tops, but quite an extensive coverage of the Israeli celebrations of the four people taken by Hamas...

It was interesting to see that for the most part, all four hostages were in good physical health and none looked like they had been deprived of food or tortured, which would indicate that they were not physically treated badly, however, no doubt there will be mental scars from their ordeal ...

SuraShine

@Shoshin1 said:

It was interesting to see that for the most part, all four hostages were in good physical health and none looked like they had been deprived of food or tortured, which would indicate that they were not physically treated badly, however, no doubt there will be mental scars from their ordeal ...

So NOT looking like Holocaust survivors when they were liberated means they're ok? Noa Argamani was held in three separate places where she was told by one "wealthy family" that she was lucky to be there as they would treat her better. She was also forced to wear a niqab when she went outside (which was sporadic) so she wouldn't be identified. She was also forbidden to speak Hebrew and only Arabic. Yes they fed her and allowed her to shower at different times. But she was lucky. She was ALSO kept by am Al-Jazeera journalist but no one wants to acknowledge that.,

I don't understand this insistence by people to downplay their state of wellbeing after release. Unless it's because they're Israeli...

At least she got to see her mother before her mother dies

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/noa-argamani-reunited-with-mother-liora-who-has-terminal-cancer-and-is-in-serious-condition/#:~:text=“This reunion happened after a,and evaluation,” Gamzu says.

From the article "Was Noa Argamani held hostage by an Al Jazeera journalist and his physician father? According to Palestinian reporting, that is true."

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjwzufmr0

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/gaza-journalist-who-wrote-for-al-jazeera-was-holding-three-hostages-in-home-with-family-israel-says/news-story/a2d02235259a37acc27aa64c55d73f39

https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/gaza-journalist-held-3-hostages-in-his-home-with-his-family-israeli-military-says/

https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/hostage-noa-argamani-recalls-harrowing-captivity-under-hamas/

Sources so I'm not accused of making up shit.

person

Everyone thinks their side is right and true and the other side is dishonest and cruel. There is spin and propaganda all around. Its hard to sort out the actual factual truth. If you think you have it all figured out and "they're" all liars or dupes you've probably been captured to some extent by a narrative.

ETA: That doesn't necessarily mean its all the same either. Its laudable to try to sort out where the truth and moral weight lay. If you find yourself thinking its all the same or its black and white, look again.

SuraShine

@person said:
Everyone thinks their side is right and true and the other side is dishonest and cruel. There is spin and propaganda all around. Its hard to sort out the actual factual truth. If you think you have it all figured out and "they're" all liars or dupes you've probably been captured to some extent by a narrative.

I agree. So to try to find the Truth you MUST explore both sides - that's my whole point. But I'm glad someone else gets what I'm saying _/_

Jeroen

I think the whole thing, from Hamas’ hostage taking to Israel’s response, is totally bat-shit crazy. I don’t see how the common people of Palestine or Israel could condone it. I blame the Palestinian Al-Jazeera journalist for keeping hostages in his house. I blame the Hamas leadership for launching a crazy attack. I blame the Israeli government for deliberately destroying Gaza. I blame the Israeli forces for following orders.

Shoshin1

@SuraShine said:

Maybe don't keep hostages in civilian homes? Maybe DON'T take hostages AT ALL?

Seems to me this thread has devolved into a "fuck Israel and Jews" since no one seems to be a little bit relieved INNOCENT CIVILIANS from Israel are alive and safe. Not to mention the rest of the hostages still in captivity - from OTHER NON JEWISH countries like Thailand who were taken because they dared to work for Jewish families or were tourists in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevermind the PTSD and other trauma they're undoubtedly suffering. But I guess that's ok while you can still blame the Israeli government for stuff sighs

Regrettably, the only aggression, hatred, or hostility towards others in this thread has come from you @SuraShine :

Over the years there has been and still are thousands of Palestinian detainees/hostages held in Israel, including men, women, and children, and many have been tortured.

The Palestinian family members are deeply affected by this, and their voices are finally being heard after many years of silence.

It is disheartening to see accusations of anti-Semitism directed at those participating in this discussion. This tactic is often used to silence criticism of the Israeli government's actions. It's important to note that criticism of a government's policies is not synonymous with criticism of an entire people or religion. Many Jews also oppose the actions of the Israeli government.

Everyone has a choice to participate in this thread. It is open to all members, and no one is compelled to engage if they find the discussion uncomfortable.

The factual truth is that the innocent on both sides in any conflict always suffer the most...

SuraShine

@Shoshin1 said:

Regrettably, the only aggression, hatred, or hostility towards others in this thread has come from you @SuraShine :

If venting frustration is aggression, then guilty as charged. But at least I've tried to see both sides as previous posts have shown.

It is disheartening to see accusations of anti-Semitism directed at those participating in this discussion. This tactic is often used to silence criticism of the Israeli government's actions. It's important to note that criticism of a government's policies is not synonymous with criticism of an entire people or religion. Many Jews also oppose the actions of the Israeli government.

I wasn't accusing all participants .

Right I'm out. Toodles.

Linc

I'm pausing this discussion for the time being.