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The Other Elephant In The Room

The horrendous situation in Gaza...

( I know the history of Palestine and the issues faced by its people (both Palestinian and Jews) there is a complex one and dates back many years...)

Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones, but Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

From what I've seen there are many Jewish people around the world (including Israelis) who are appalled at the heavy handed use of force by the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) and strongly voice their opposition...and if non Jewish people voice their concerns about the more often than not brutal tactics used by the Israeli military toward Palestinian civilians, they are labelled anti Semitic ...which is ridiculous, but it has become a weapon used by the present Israeli government against non Jewish people who have concerns about how the Palestinian people are being treated...

I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

And as usual the first casualty of any conflict/war is the truth... but in the case of the suffering of thousands of Palestinian people at the hands of the IDF the Truth is undeniable ...

Sadly this is what happens when hatred, anger and greed AKA ignorance clouds the mind....

May all involved find peace soon.... <3<3<3 ...but I won't hold my breath....

JeroenmarcitkoFosdickDagobahZen
«13456

Comments

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    To reply to violence with more violence just means peace gets further away for everyone. The children in Gaza who watch their playmates get killed are tomorrow’s hardened Hamas supporters. I don’t think that what Israel is doing is a measured response… it is an emotional response.

    I remember once seeing Thich Nhat Hanh giving a retreat on peace to a mixed group of Israelis and Palestinians. I thought it was beautiful, a life changing beacon of hope for those involved.

    Shoshin1marcitkoDagobahZenGavin_R
  • I thought that was a very well stated OP @Shoshin and I agree with everything you've written.

    I read a Guardian "Gaza diary" and cried after reading a newspaper for the first time in my life. It is very well written, just daily living and facts, a diary.

    Might write more later, gotta go now.

    Shoshin1DagobahZenGavin_R
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    The thing is, the media spreads stories of how awful the attackers are, how unjust they were to kill and take hostages. It made it politically impossible to go softly with a response. Without Buddhist media it is impossible to generate a Buddhist response to aggression. Instead a hawk of a prime minister was empowered to make a large scale attack on Gaza.

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 2023

    I came across this....

    He is very articulate when he talks about what is happening in Gaza...

    Norman Finkelstein "I'm not pro Palestinian"....

    ...Being interviewed by Candace Owens on Daily wire, a right wing media organisation ...

    And for the most part all what the Palestinian people of Gaza and the West bank are doing is resisting unjust laws which eroding their human rights....

    When injustice becomes law,
    Resistance becomes duty

    - Thomas Jefferson

  • marcitkomarcitko Veteran
    edited November 2023

    Gabor Mate, of whom we have already been talking about, is on a spree talking about this issue on Youtube. I watched the one below and thought it was very good. He is Jewish but very much against the current and historical policies.

    Shoshin1DagobahZen
  • I am no scholar of the Israel-Palestine conflict, but my thoughts are:

    • to forbid humanitarian aid, to propose "voluntary" emigration of the total population to other countries - after actually forbidding all exiting from Gaza - and to say that you will no longer be able to tolerate the existence of a people in a certain place are four policies which are far, far, far, beyond any normal best war practices that they immediately amount - to my mind at least - to a war crime(s).
    • For these reasons, and the historical systematic encroachment on the land of the Palestinians - subsidised and encouraged by the state of Israel (I checked this, it's true)- I consider the whole process either already genocide or genocide in the making.

    Here are the UN requirements for the term "genocide":
    Killing members of the group;
    Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    As far as I can tell, Israel is already doing numbers 1, 2, 3, not doing only number 4, and proposing to do number 5.

    • Gaza is, to my mind, a geto. Clear and simple. It is heartbreaking that the descendants of those from a geto would create a geto.

    • I am NOT anti-semitic and intend wholeheartedly to remain that way. I consider the Nazi extermination of the Jews to be certainly the biggest crime in recent history of which I know and have nothing against and all in favor of any individual Jew I might come across, including those from Israel. I come from a war-torn region and know something about being "anti-x-nation". It is NOT the same to criticize the policy of a certain state/entity and to criticize all members of a group as being X. I do not think that the Jewish people are any X. I think, however, that the State of Israel is a lot of X, and that X ain't good, currently more so.

    • On the other hand, it IS true that the historical conditions in the region led to a 70 year clusterfuck which I certainly cannot hope to understand. So, I have compassion even for the hawks in Israel. It ain't easy living there or being a politician there, and that's probably an understatement.

    • I observe the global order through a lens of the slow downfall of the US and the West as the global superpower and the rise of China with its current and future allies. From that lens, it seems to me that the US, which would ordinarily restrict the atrocities of Israel, considers itself only strong enough to prop up its ally in an important region, and does not have the strength any more to uphold its own virtues and values. That, I find sad.

    KotishkaShoshin1DagobahZen
  • Thanks for the well thought out post @marcitko ...

    It's true that one can still have compassion for the oppressors, bearing in mind that one would not commit atrocities if one is not experiencing some form of suffering oneself..

    Sadly it is such that hurt people, hurt people and so the tit for tat vicious cycle continues...and many innocent lives are lost on both sides...

    marcitkoDagobahZen
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    I grew up in a city that was something of a Jewish enclave, I knew a lot of Jewish people growing up and as a kid I just assumed that was a normal experience. So I think my natural inclination is pro Israel, but I recognize there is ample blame and suffering to go around. If I really want to trace back to the original sin, I like to blame Britain for botching the handling of the country's founding. It feels relatively guilt free in comparison.

    I was listening to the popular historian and author Yuval Noah Harari talk on this. He's an Israeli citizen and critical of Netanyahu. He has his long history perspective and is a serious meditator, so what I got out of it was an honest discussion on the subject without the anger and hatred that tends to infuse a lot of the conversation.

    What I took from it was how Netanyahu and the conservative party had wanted extremist Palestinian factions like Hamas and Hezbola rather than more moderate forces in charge, so they could avoid peace talks where they'd have to compromise. This way they could continue expansionist and militaristic policies with the excuse that they can't work with such factions. Or something to that effect. And that they've actively taken actions to encourage extremists and discourage moderates. In many ways the October 7th attack was a consequence of his strategy.

    I think listening to Harari talk also maybe highlighted why some people feel the pro Palestinian faction has an antisemitic element. They hear angry rhetoric directed at Israel and it feels very similar to antisemitism they've heard over the years. At one level a lot of that impression is on the hearer. On another level there have been actual antisemitic tropes mixed in in some circumstances, "gas the Jews" was chanted at a protest in Sydney, a Brooklyn protest was called "Brooklyn Flood" a name inspired by the attack, a Chicago protest had a hang glider as a symbol. Though that is far from the majority. At even another level, claims of antisemitism get thrown around in bad faith in an attempt to silence opposition rather than engage with the actual arguments. An all too common tactic these days.

    Smarter and way more involved people than me haven't been able to untangle the spiral of violence there, I have nothing really to add. It seems to me though that the extremist forces in the region need to be marginalized and moderate forces need to be championed. People that are willing to talk rather than flip the table over if they don't get everything they want. There are several cross faction groups in the area that are focused on reconciliation. I can't remember the names off hand but one was a group of Palestinian and Israeli mothers who have lost children in the conflict.

    marcitkoShoshin1DagobahZen
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 2023

    A case of history repeating itself...

    The latest phase of the undeclared war in the Middle East is based upon a profound miscalculation. The bombing raids deep into Egyptian territory will not persuade the civilian population to surrender, but will stiffen their resolve to resist. This is the lesson of all aerial bombardment. The Vietnamese who have endured years of American bombing have responded not by capitulation, but by shooting down more enemy aircraft. In 1940 my own fellow-countrymen resisted Hitler’s bombing raids with an unprecedent unity and determination. For this reason, the present Israeli attacks will fail in their essential purpose, but at the same time they must be condemned vigorously throughout the world.

    The development of the crisis in the Middle East is both dangerous and instructive. For over twenty years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to ‘reason’ and has suggested ‘negotiations’. This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has taken already by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression.

    The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is also an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.

    The refugees who surround Palestine in their hundreds of thousands were described recently by the Washington journalist I.F. Stone as ‘the moral milestone around the neck of world Jewry’. Many of the refugees are now well into the third decade of their precarious existence in temporary settlements. The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was ‘given’ by a foreign Power to another people for the creation of a new State. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers have increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty?

    It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East.

    We are frequently told that we must sympathize with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. I see in this suggestion no reason to perpetuate the suffering. What Israel is doing today can not be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy. Not only does Israel condemn a vast number of refugees to misery; not only are many Arabs under occupation condemned to military rule; but also Israel condemns the Arab nations, only recently emerging from colonial status, to continuing impoverishment as military demands take precedence over national development.

    All who want to see an end to bloodshed in the Middle East must ensure that any settlement does not contain the seeds of future conflict. Justice requires that the first step towards a settlement must be an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied in June 1967. A new world campaign is needed to help bring justice to the long-suffering people of the Middle East.

    Bertrand Russell, January 31, 1970

    [This statement on the Middle East was read on 3rd February, 1970, the day after Bertrand Russell’s death, to an International Conference of Parliamentarians meeting in Cairo.]

  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    Shoshin1
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    It seems a lot of the Palestinian diaspora has been heavily affected by images of the Israeli offensive…

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/27/war-gaza-lesson-western-hypocrisy-international-community

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 2023

    @SuraShine said:

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    Sorry if it came across that way to you, my intention was to highlight the heavy handed actions of the Israeli "government" and its "military" towards the Palestinian civilian population and not 'demonise' Israel...

    There is no question that 'Hamas' committed horrendous war crimes against Israeli civilians, men, woman and children and should be held accountable for what they have done ....

    However the coverage of Mainstream Western media outlets over the last month or so, has been quite one sided when reporting what is actually happening now in Gaza, but social media and its easy access has changed the dominance of mainstream media outlets, people are now seeing firsthand reports from civilians on the ground who are using their phones to document the carnage...This phenomena of videoing events firsthand using ones phone (before the mainstream media censor what their reporters see and report on) is now becoming popular...this is not to say that manipulation can not occur with such use...

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    It is sad that anti Semitism ( both Jews and Arabs are Semites...a thing we tend to overlook) is on the rise again, and due to what is happening in Gaza, those who hold strong anti Semitic views ( a strong dislike for both Arabs and Jews) will use this conflict to target both Moslems and Jews living in the West......

    Minority groups in the West and elsewhere always tend to suffer collectively (regardless of their personal views) when a situation occurs involving members of a group of those affiliated with a particular minority group and is publicised by the dominant media outlets of both the left and right wing ...for example in the West, minority ethnic groups, such as people of colour, Moslems, Jews, and members of the LGBTQI ....

    And as I mentioned before...

    I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

    (the Jewish state=The Israeli government and not all the Israeli people-I know Israelis and other Jewish people living on the island who strongly oppose the Israeli government's actions )

    If the US, the UK and the European Union had immediately stepped and used their influence to stop the bombing of the civilian population in Gaza by Israeli forces, when the extent of the bombing first came to light...anti Jewish sentiment which we are seeing now may not have risen to the extent it is rising to now, they have opened the door for the true anti Semites to come out of the woodwork and more innocent people both Jew and Arab will suffer... they ( the US, the UK and the European Union ) and the present Israeli government have a lot to answer for when it comes to the present situation...

    Studies have shown that traumatic experiences can be pass down from mother to child....So just image the impact on the mental health and well being of "all" those in war zones who are suffering...

    Hurt people, hurt people...

    1,200 Israelis killed, mostly civilians and almost 20,000 Palestinians killed, mostly civilians

    There are no winners in war...

    marcitkoSuraShine
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran
    edited November 2023

    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    Shoshin1SuraShine
  • @Jeroen said:
    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    I couldn't agree more ....

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Speaking of elephants.

    So many different groups, focusing upon the imagined differences between themselves and others, use those examinations as dodge away from facing how similar they actually are to each another.
    The old are just the young at the ending of that journey, the governments are just average folks under power's seductive touch.

    Too often, those who cry the loudest for others to change, are the very ones least willing to change themselves.

    marcitkoShoshin1Kotishka
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    personmarcitkoShoshin1
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    @Jeroen said:
    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    I appreciate the sentiment that we want wise, stable leaders. I think this solution isn't a very good one. At one level I think its undemocratic to have an individual or panel tell citizens who their leader can or can't be. I also worry about the politicization, and thus ruination, of psychology. For example, the personality trait of openness to experience is correlated with progressives and the personality trait of conscientiousness with conservatives. A politicized psychology might pathologize close mindedness or carelessness according to whoever has the power to do so.

    howKotishkaShoshin1
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    The Goldwater episode in 1964 may be of interest…

    https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/goldwater-rule

    person
  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    @Shoshin1 said:

    @SuraShine said:

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    Sorry if it came across that way to you, my intention was to highlight the heavy handed actions of the Israeli "government" and its "military" towards the Palestinian civilian population and not 'demonise' Israel...

    There is no question that 'Hamas' committed horrendous war crimes against Israeli civilians, men, woman and children and should be held accountable for what they have done ....

    However the coverage of Mainstream Western media outlets over the last month or so, has been quite one sided when reporting what is actually happening now in Gaza, but social media and its easy access has changed the dominance of mainstream media outlets, people are now seeing firsthand reports from civilians on the ground who are using their phones to document the carnage...This phenomena of videoing events firsthand using ones phone (before the mainstream media censor what their reporters see and report on) is now becoming popular...this is not to say that manipulation can not occur with such use...

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    It is sad that anti Semitism ( both Jews and Arabs are Semites...a thing we tend to overlook) is on the rise again, and due to what is happening in Gaza, those who hold strong anti Semitic views ( a strong dislike for both Arabs and Jews) will use this conflict to target both Moslems and Jews living in the West......

    Minority groups in the West and elsewhere always tend to suffer collectively (regardless of their personal views) when a situation occurs involving members of a group of those affiliated with a particular minority group and is publicised by the dominant media outlets of both the left and right wing ...for example in the West, minority ethnic groups, such as people of colour, Moslems, Jews, and members of the LGBTQI ....

    And as I mentioned before...

    I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

    (the Jewish state=The Israeli government and not all the Israeli people-I know Israelis and other Jewish people living on the island who strongly oppose the Israeli government's actions )

    If the US, the UK and the European Union had immediately stepped and used their influence to stop the bombing of the civilian population in Gaza by Israeli forces, when the extent of the bombing first came to light...anti Jewish sentiment which we are seeing now may not have risen to the extent it is rising to now, they have opened the door for the true anti Semites to come out of the woodwork and more innocent people both Jew and Arab will suffer... they ( the US, the UK and the European Union ) and the present Israeli government have a lot to answer for when it comes to the present situation...

    Studies have shown that traumatic experiences can be pass down from mother to child....So just image the impact on the mental health and well being of "all" those in war zones who are suffering...

    Hurt people, hurt people...

    1,200 Israelis killed, mostly civilians and almost 20,000 Palestinians killed, mostly civilians

    There are no winners in war...

    I'm sorry if in my post I came across as accusatory. It wasn't my intention. But I truly do appreciate your reply :heart:

    Shoshin1
  • @SuraShine said:
    I'm sorry if in my post I came across as accusatory. It wasn't my intention. But I truly do appreciate your reply :heart:

    No worries @SuraShine ...Thank you ...

  • UNICEF spokesperson James Elder who's in Gaza

    This is not a war on terror, it is looking more like an all out terror attack by the Israeli government itself, terrorising and massacring innocent men, women and children....whilst the world stands by and lets it happen...

    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

    ~Mahatma Gandhi~

    IdleChaterSteve_Blobster
  • Why did the US government veto a ceasefire in Gaza ?
    When they say they want the killing to stop, but then give the Israeli government a
    green light to continue massacring innocent men women and children ..

    I wonder if in part, it is an attempt by media moguls to desensitising the world to the atrocities being committed...

    Making it so wealthy powerful countries can bomb the people of poor weaker countries out of existence ...as the world turns a blind eye...

    Vastmind
  • I started to watch AJ again when it all kicked off to get a better understanding of what it is really like for Palestinian people in Gaza ...Thanks for the link @Vastmind ...

    Sadly it would seems the US and UK governments are intentionally slowing the process of a ceasefire or an end to hostilities down so as to allow the Israeli government (Netanyahu and his cronies) and their military (supplied by arms from the US and UK's weapons manufacturers ) to achieve their goals of thinning out the Palestinian population, men women and children "Collateral Damage" and making Gaza uninhabitable for those Palestinians who are left...

    Some academics consider genocide to be a subset of "murderous ethnic cleansing"

    Norman Naimark writes, these concepts are different but related, for "literally and figuratively, ethnic cleansing bleeds into genocide, as mass murder is committed in order to rid the land of a people"

  • AboudAboud Space New
    edited December 2023

    There is no "war" here because the people of Gaza are completely defenseless & imprisoned. "War" happens between two armies. In Ukraine, there is a war because Ukraine & Russia had the largest armies in Europe, where Russia opened humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to depart and Ukraine was continuously armed by the West. This is not happening in Gaza. Its not a war. Its just a massacre. As for Oct 7, the Israeli government has already admitted 200 Hamas burned beyond recognition were included in the original 1400 death count. There is enough evidence & testimonies by now many Israelis were killed by Israel military fire power. While the Hamas adventure to capture hostages for prisoner exchanges was the very worst foolish follies, we probably need to take with exaggerated narratives. Unfortunately, as I said to an ICC lawyer as soon as Oct 7 occurred, this is probably the end of Gaza. Eventually, the surviving people must be transferred to the West as refugees. The US government vetoed a ceasefire in Gaza because democracy is not working in the US. The people lost control of the government.

    Shoshin1IdleChater
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited December 2023

    The suffering of the Palestinian people breaks my heart, and it fills me with guilt that my country has been complicit in the violence inflicted upon them and has sustained their oppression. And I feel powerless to do much to stop it

    No doubt many of us are feeling the same way...frustrated with the inaction of Western governments who could step in and stop this ongoing slaughter and powerless to do much to stop it ourselves...

    And it would seem some Western media have adopted a Trumpism style of reporting... using alternative facts AKA lies, to back up their version of fake news ....

  • @Shoshin1 said:

    And it would seem some Western media have adopted a Trumpism style of reporting... using alternative facts AKA lies, to back up their version of fake news ....

    The style of reporting is a familiar one and goes back for decades. It goes like this: Palestinian terrorists du jour attack targets in Israel. Israel responds by bombing parts of Palestinian territory into the Jurassic. Bad Palestinians. Good Israel.

    They never try to explain what prompted the terrorists to attack Israel, especially in light of the absolutely predictable way that Israel responds. Look at the current situation. Hamas invades and kills/kidnaps around 1200 people. Again, Israel's response is classic and predictable. The media is predictable. The US government is predictable. Nobody seems to give a shit about why Hamas did what they did. Was it worth the price they're paying I wonder?

    Shoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited December 2023

    What I find interesting when it comes to the use of the terms terrorist and terrorism by Western media and governments, and ironically used by the Israeli government...

    Terrorism and the Modern Middle East and lest we forget the Nakba...

    It's important to know about the history of modern day Palestine and its people...

  • AboudAboud Space New
    edited December 2023

    They didn't invade and kill/kidnap around 1200 people; just as there were no 40 beheaded babies & no rapes. The fact they downgraded the death count to 1200 due to 200 unrecognizable Hamas shows Hamas obviously did not kill 1200 people. The 200 incinerated Hamas did not set themselves on fire. There are many articles and real videos on this (such as videos taken by Israelis hiding in their cars showing IDF soldiers storming across the Rave Concert carpark, engaged in a gun battle, as well as Israeli security at the concert). https://www.liberationnews.org/evidence-shows-israel-killed-many-of-its-own-citizens-on-oct-7-then-blamed-hamas/ As for Hamas, this is a political group with Muslim Brotherhood (banned in most Islamic countries) origins, which Israel originally allowed to register as a political party & supported, to divide Palestine. Israel continued to lobby for the funding of Hamas. https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000 After the PLO/Fatah made peace with Israel, Israel supported Hamas because Israel needs enemies like this for its plans. While I have never supported Hamas, regardless of their nature, i think it is unfair to call them 'terrorists'.

    Shoshin1
  • AboudAboud Space New
    edited December 2023

    Videos being released debunking the lies, such as the woman who was allegedly raped & placed in the back of the truck. New video claiming she was on active military duty & showing her trousers were already soiled when she was captured at an Israeli military base with others. While naturally I do not condone any violence, Israel is a military state where military training & service is compulsory. To label every Israeli affected by Oct 7 as a "citizen" was obviously misleading. Unfortunately, many were obviously part of the military oppressing & murdering in Gaza prior to Oct 7. Therefore, Oct 7 mostly looks to be part of an ongoing war rather than being a "terrorist" attack. This said, I already posted I have never been a supporter of Hamas. Hamas does not represent what Palestine was/is.


    Shoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited December 2023

    The renewal of Israel's ethnic cleansing and automated genocide of the Palestinian people has been going on for 70 days now...

    It does make you wonder how Western government officials who continue to support this genocide can sleep at night...

    "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract"

  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    @Aboud said:
    Videos being released debunking the lies, such as the woman who was allegedly raped & placed in the back of the truck. New video claiming she was on active military duty & showing her trousers were already soiled when she was captured at an Israeli military base with others.

    So I suppose the body cams Hamas released during their attack on Oct 7 is fake too....?

    You can denounce a government without resorting to lies to discredit them you know.

    Personally, as someone with Israeli and Palestinian friends (as well as family), I'm getting really sick and tired of both sides degenerating into lying to prove a point. War sucks, killing is wrong and BOTH sides are suffering because of two governments who are basically shitheads exemplifying Mara. Big newsflash, just as you say Palestinians are not Hamas, Jews are not the Israeli government. And I don't see mobs of Jews roaming cities worldwide desecrating mosques, homes of Imams and Islamic schools.

    If it really IS about the Israelis stealing land and crippling the Palestinians freedoms and lives, targetting ALL Jews worldwide damages the Palestinian cause. Not all Jews are Israelis. Not even all Israelis ARE Jews. And sure as shit not all Israelis support Netanyahu (I think his support is around 14% now). So unless you just hate Jews and are using this to hide amongst the Palestinians' pain, a lot of people in general need to read BOOKS about the history behind the region cause this goes back way farther than the last 75 years. Try reading about the Pan Arab Colonisation of the Levant for starters.

    I'll add right now that this is not personally aimed at you @Aboud , I'm just responding to your post.

    Shoshin1DagobahZen
  • As I've mentioned before, it saddens me that attacks are on the rise again, affecting both Jews and Muslims. Unfortunately, this was expected given the ongoing tensions. The actions of the Israeli government, led by Netanyahu, have contributed to the escalation,

    It is crucial to raise awareness about alleged war crimes committed by the current Israeli government and the IDF against innocent men, women, and children. Silence in such situations can be perceived as complicity with the atrocities. Speaking out against government actions doesn't imply a stance against any specific group of people.

    In situations where people oppose government policies, there are diverse views, and some may be extreme . This is a common aspect of democracies, where differing opinions exist.

    For many years, the narrative has often focused on "Palestinian Muslim terrorists" and crimes against Israeli citizens, overshadowing the actions of the Israeli military in Palestinian territories. It's important to consider the complexities of the situation, including Israeli military activities and actions of Israeli settlers.

    Recent events have shifted public opinion, with increasing awareness of Palestinian civilian casualties and evidence disputing some IDF claims. Independent sources, including reputable Israeli newspapers and eyewitness accounts, have provided alternative perspectives.

    It is essential to differentiate between opposition to the Israeli government and its policies and anti-Semitism. Many individuals in the West who criticize Israel's occupation of Palestinian land are not motivated by anti-Semitic sentiments. Concerns for the safety of Jewish friends and family are valid, acknowledging that those in Western countries generally have state protection, unlike the Palestinian people in Palestine.

    In times of conflict, the truth often becomes blurred, and extremists on both sides contribute to propaganda that fuels violence.

    personSuraShineJeffrey
  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    You make some really valid points there @Shoshin1 thank you for highlighting them.

    Shoshin1DagobahZen
  • I think the main problem is most people become reactive beacons rather than critical and compassionate fellow beings.

    The media feeds you excessive sensationalism and horror for their own benefit (clicks, reactions, viralisation) instead of thought and articulated conversation like I see here.

    Strong points are made, opinions are contrasted, experiences collide; but keeping a good and fluent conversation, utilising logic, compassion, and explaining one's point rather than demanding one's point to be perfect and right...and...most importantly...both sides willing to discuss openly rather than resorting to the "you are with me or against me mentality."

    Shoshin1person
  • I wanted to get a feel for what it is like in Israel for Israelis at the moment and came across this young American Vlogger ....



  • I found this 2018 documentary interesting, the documentary highlights the propaganda we are are being fed by Netanyahu's Israeli government spin doctors today .......

    Narrated by Roger Waters and featuring leading observers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and U.S. media culture, the film explores how the Israeli government, the U.S. government, and the pro-Israel lobby have joined forces, often with very different motives, to shape American media coverage of the conflict in Israel's favor. From the U.S.-based public relations campaigns that emerged in the 1980s to today, the film provides a sweeping analysis of Israel's decades-long battle for the hearts, minds, and tax dollars of the American people in the face of widening international condemnation of its increasingly right-wing policies

    The Occupation Of The American Mind

    "The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never again escape from it,"

    ~Joseph Goebbels~

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran
    edited December 2023

    I watched the whole docu in the end, but found the incessant repetition of violent images from history to be hard to sit through. The images used over the actual talking points are more a history of the media coverage, so there’s a fair share of bodies and blood.

    It makes me wonder why I have to know about a 1982 massacre in Israeli-occupied Lebanon and watch the images of that atrocity in order to understand that the Israelis in the US embarked on a program to control the media.

    But the other thing to note is the basic bankruptcy of people’s ethics. Both the media, the marketing, the people who do the lobbying, the politicians, they are all motivated by money and not by honesty and truth. The days of the freedom of the press are long gone.

    Shoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited December 2023

    The documentary effectively presents what various people, including many of the Jewish diaspora and Israeli Jews, have witnessed happening throughout the years. It sheds light on why there is significant opposition to the policies of Israel's right-wing government.

    While the documentary reveals uncomfortable truths, it emphasizes the importance of showcasing such content. The inclusion of images depicting atrocities serves as a powerful means to foster empathy and compassion.

    As uncomfortable as some of those images are , combining visuals with words has a lasting impact on raising awareness.

    But the other thing to note is the basic bankruptcy of people’s ethics. Both the media, the marketing, the people who do the lobbying, the politicians, they are all motivated by money and not by honesty and truth. The days of the freedom of the press are long gone

    It would seem "the love of money is (truly) the root of all evil" is an irrefutable truth, one which is playing out before our eyes...
    For what other reason would many Western politicians, with the influence to intervene, choose not to act...

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    Well, politicians wish to get re-elected, and that mostly happens by not going against the voters. So it is a two-pronged approach by Israel, first to influence the opinions of the American public through influencing the media, and second to lobby the politicians through providing money for re-election campaigns.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    Thought this was really good. Very human and insightful. I really like this sort of cross partisan dialogue, without honest participants from multiple viewpoints I always feel like any information I'm getting is skewed. More like a lawyer arguing their case than a scientist investigating the truth.

    Shoshin1
  • Thanks for posting @person,...

    I watch the video a couple of weeks ago and watched it again just now....

    The ability for both groups to show some empathy for both view points is the key point of the 'middle ground' video...

    Something which both the Israeli government and Hamas seem to be in short supply of ...

    Empathy vs compassion: A Buddhist perspective

    Empathy is what happens when we experience another person’s emotions as if they were our own. When they feel relief, joy or elation, we do too. When they feel depressed, ditto. Neuroscientists tell us that, with empathy, the same parts of our brain are activated as if we were going through the same thing as the other person. Their feelings become ours.

    Is it any surprise that if we’re surrounded by the chronically miserable, desperate, or anxious, as empaths we are going to suffer from their torment? But in so doing, we face exhaustion, maybe the impulse to flee, and ultimately perhaps even to lash out at the source of our vicariously induced distress.

    Compassion, by contrast, comes from a very different place. Our wish to help the other person is motivated by love, which in Buddhism is defined as the wish to give happiness to others. We understand their suffering because we have suffered too. And based on that empathetic foundation, our wish is to help them get out of their pit, to whatever extent that may be possible. We are not taking on their pain as our own. In fact our experience of reality is ideally one of boundless peace and wellbeing.

    As benevolent and calmly objective carers, we can offer far more than if we are caught up in empathetic emotion. Interestingly, this is something that seems to come with medical training. I have no doubt that the medics and psychs who come to our Buddhist centre are compassionate people, but I also know from observation over the years that, in a crisis, they keep their heads. The ability of someone to emote is quite different from their ability to take compassionate action. Emoting may very well be an obstacle!

    Neuroscience shows that very different networks of the brain are activated when we focus on the wish to benefit someone else, versus empathising with their suffering. Ground-breaking work by Dr. Richard J. Davison of the University of Wisconsin-Madison using an fMRI machine, showed that when we focus our compassionate attention on the wellbeing of others, we ourselves are likely to experience a state of profound wellbeing.

    Two caring people, in other words, may be working in similar circumstances helping others, and while one of them faces despair and exhaustion, the other thrives. The difference could be empathy versus compassion.

    person
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited December 2023

    In practical terms, my assistance to those in need in Gaza is through donations to humanitarian organizations on the ground. These organizations can directly offer support and express compassion to the suffering Gazan civilian population.
    No doubt members here who are in a position to, also donation in times of humanitarian crises like this...

    There are IDF soldiers and family members deeply affected by the scenes of destruction and loss of life they've witnessed or (in the case of the soldiers themselves) been part of. After the conflict subsides, some of these soldiers might resort to drugs and alcohol in an attempt to cope. Like many Palestinian civilians, they too could face long-term trauma from these events.

  • DagobahZenDagobahZen Ireland Veteran

    This conflict is proportionally one of the worst if not The Worst for civilian casualties . A ceasefire must be brokered. Over 8,000 children killed since the conflict began. It's beyond tragic. I'm not here to stir animosity against any group but it needs to stop.

    Shoshin1IdleChater
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    I watched a couple short segments of comedians trying to do some comedy about the conflict, and then it recommended the comedian Andrew Shultz talking with his other comedian friends. I was expecting some sort of attempt at humor, but what I got was one of the most empathic, unbiased and nuanced discussions I think I've heard about the conflict so far. (From the human side of it, rather than any kind of historical analysis)

    Shoshin1JeroenDagobahZen
  • Why people deny reality or refuse to accept facts:

    Selective Ignorance: They might choose to ignore certain facts or evidence while focusing only on information that supports their beliefs or opinions.

    Confirmation Bias: This refers to the tendency to search for, interpret, and remember information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs. People in denial often seek out only information that supports their views.

    Rationalization: They may come up with seemingly logical explanations or justifications for their beliefs, even if these explanations don't align with reality.

    Avoidance: They might avoid discussions, situations, or people that challenge their beliefs or present contradictory evidence.

    Emotional Responses: Denial often comes with strong emotional reactions. People might become defensive, angry, or agitated when confronted with facts that contradict their beliefs.

    Isolation: They may isolate themselves from sources of information or communities that present different perspectives or facts.

    Repetition of False Information: People in denial might repeat false or misleading information as if it were true, hoping that by doing so, it will become accepted or believed.

    Dismissal of Experts: They might dismiss or discredit experts, scientists, or credible sources if their views contradict the individual's beliefs.

    Overconfidence: Despite lacking credible evidence, they may express unwarranted confidence in their beliefs or opinions.

    Lack of Open-mindedness: A refusal to consider alternative viewpoints or evidence is a clear sign of denial.

    There's a lot of this happening, especially when it comes to Western and Israeli politicians and the media....

    DagobahZenlobster
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