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The Other Elephant In The Room

The horrendous situation in Gaza...

( I know the history of Palestine and the issues faced by its people (both Palestinian and Jews) there is a complex one and dates back many years...)

Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones, but Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

From what I've seen there are many Jewish people around the world (including Israelis) who are appalled at the heavy handed use of force by the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) and strongly voice their opposition...and if non Jewish people voice their concerns about the more often than not brutal tactics used by the Israeli military toward Palestinian civilians, they are labelled anti Semitic ...which is ridiculous, but it has become a weapon used by the present Israeli government against non Jewish people who have concerns about how the Palestinian people are being treated...

I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

And as usual the first casualty of any conflict/war is the truth... but in the case of the suffering of thousands of Palestinian people at the hands of the IDF the Truth is undeniable ...

Sadly this is what happens when hatred, anger and greed AKA ignorance clouds the mind....

May all involved find peace soon.... <3<3<3 ...but I won't hold my breath....

JeroenmarcitkoFosdick

Comments

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    To reply to violence with more violence just means peace gets further away for everyone. The children in Gaza who watch their playmates get killed are tomorrow’s hardened Hamas supporters. I don’t think that what Israel is doing is a measured response… it is an emotional response.

    I remember once seeing Thich Nhat Hanh giving a retreat on peace to a mixed group of Israelis and Palestinians. I thought it was beautiful, a life changing beacon of hope for those involved.

    Shoshin1marcitko
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran
    edited November 18

    Every time I start to write about this. words fail me. The senselessness and sheer brutality bring tears to my heart. It is not enough, but my prayers go to/for the people impacted by this war, by all the wars raging upon this planet of ours.
    Prayers for compassion <3
    Prayers for mercy <3
    Prayers for peace <3
    <3<3<3

    Peace to all

    Shoshin1marcitkopersonJeffrey
  • I thought that was a very well stated OP @Shoshin and I agree with everything you've written.

    I read a Guardian "Gaza diary" and cried after reading a newspaper for the first time in my life. It is very well written, just daily living and facts, a diary.

    Might write more later, gotta go now.

    Shoshin1
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    There is no such thing as a 'JUST' war.

    A big, tough samurai once went to see a little monk. “Monk,” he said, in a voice accustomed to instant obedience, “teach me about Heaven and Hell!”

    The monk looked up at this mighty warrior and replied calmly, but with utter disdain, “Teach you about Heaven and Hell? I couldn’t teach you anything! You're pompous! You're loud! You’re dirty, and you smell! And do you call that a sword?! Your blade is rusty! You’re a disgrace, an embarrassment to the Samurai class! Pah!! Get out of my sight, I can’t stand even to look at you!!”

    The samurai was furious. He shook, grew red in the face, and was speechless with rage. He pulled out his sword and raised it above him, preparing to slay the monk.

    Without flinching, the Monk softly said, “That, is Hell”.

    The samurai was stopped in his tracks, and froze in mid movement. The calm, benign compassion and surrender of this little man who knelt quietly before him, unmoved and serene, was a thing he had never before encountered. He dropped his sword, knelt with gratitude, and was suddenly peaceful.

    “And that - is Heaven,” smiled the monk softly.

    ~Zen

    All it takes, is for one side to just stop.
    Just stop.
    THAT - is Just.

    Shoshin1lobster
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    The thing is, the media spreads stories of how awful the attackers are, how unjust they were to kill and take hostages. It made it politically impossible to go softly with a response. Without Buddhist media it is impossible to generate a Buddhist response to aggression. Instead a hawk of a prime minister was empowered to make a large scale attack on Gaza.

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 18

    I came across this....

    He is very articulate when he talks about what is happening in Gaza...

    Norman Finkelstein "I'm not pro Palestinian"....

    ...Being interviewed by Candace Owens on Daily wire, a right wing media organisation ...

    And for the most part all what the Palestinian people of Gaza and the West bank are doing is resisting unjust laws which eroding their human rights....

    When injustice becomes law,
    Resistance becomes duty

    - Thomas Jefferson

  • marcitkomarcitko Veteran
    edited November 19

    Gabor Mate, of whom we have already been talking about, is on a spree talking about this issue on Youtube. I watched the one below and thought it was very good. He is Jewish but very much against the current and historical policies.

    Shoshin1
  • I am no scholar of the Israel-Palestine conflict, but my thoughts are:

    • to forbid humanitarian aid, to propose "voluntary" emigration of the total population to other countries - after actually forbidding all exiting from Gaza - and to say that you will no longer be able to tolerate the existence of a people in a certain place are four policies which are far, far, far, beyond any normal best war practices that they immediately amount - to my mind at least - to a war crime(s).
    • For these reasons, and the historical systematic encroachment on the land of the Palestinians - subsidised and encouraged by the state of Israel (I checked this, it's true)- I consider the whole process either already genocide or genocide in the making.

    Here are the UN requirements for the term "genocide":
    Killing members of the group;
    Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    As far as I can tell, Israel is already doing numbers 1, 2, 3, not doing only number 4, and proposing to do number 5.

    • Gaza is, to my mind, a geto. Clear and simple. It is heartbreaking that the descendants of those from a geto would create a geto.

    • I am NOT anti-semitic and intend wholeheartedly to remain that way. I consider the Nazi extermination of the Jews to be certainly the biggest crime in recent history of which I know and have nothing against and all in favor of any individual Jew I might come across, including those from Israel. I come from a war-torn region and know something about being "anti-x-nation". It is NOT the same to criticize the policy of a certain state/entity and to criticize all members of a group as being X. I do not think that the Jewish people are any X. I think, however, that the State of Israel is a lot of X, and that X ain't good, currently more so.

    • On the other hand, it IS true that the historical conditions in the region led to a 70 year clusterfuck which I certainly cannot hope to understand. So, I have compassion even for the hawks in Israel. It ain't easy living there or being a politician there, and that's probably an understatement.

    • I observe the global order through a lens of the slow downfall of the US and the West as the global superpower and the rise of China with its current and future allies. From that lens, it seems to me that the US, which would ordinarily restrict the atrocities of Israel, considers itself only strong enough to prop up its ally in an important region, and does not have the strength any more to uphold its own virtues and values. That, I find sad.

    KotishkaShoshin1
  • Thanks for the well thought out post @marcitko ...

    It's true that one can still have compassion for the oppressors, bearing in mind that one would not commit atrocities if one is not experiencing some form of suffering oneself..

    Sadly it is such that hurt people, hurt people and so the tit for tat vicious cycle continues...and many innocent lives are lost on both sides...

    marcitko
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    I grew up in a city that was something of a Jewish enclave, I knew a lot of Jewish people growing up and as a kid I just assumed that was a normal experience. So I think my natural inclination is pro Israel, but I recognize there is ample blame and suffering to go around. If I really want to trace back to the original sin, I like to blame Britain for botching the handling of the country's founding. It feels relatively guilt free in comparison.

    I was listening to the popular historian and author Yuval Noah Harari talk on this. He's an Israeli citizen and critical of Netanyahu. He has his long history perspective and is a serious meditator, so what I got out of it was an honest discussion on the subject without the anger and hatred that tends to infuse a lot of the conversation.

    What I took from it was how Netanyahu and the conservative party had wanted extremist Palestinian factions like Hamas and Hezbola rather than more moderate forces in charge, so they could avoid peace talks where they'd have to compromise. This way they could continue expansionist and militaristic policies with the excuse that they can't work with such factions. Or something to that effect. And that they've actively taken actions to encourage extremists and discourage moderates. In many ways the October 7th attack was a consequence of his strategy.

    I think listening to Harari talk also maybe highlighted why some people feel the pro Palestinian faction has an antisemitic element. They hear angry rhetoric directed at Israel and it feels very similar to antisemitism they've heard over the years. At one level a lot of that impression is on the hearer. On another level there have been actual antisemitic tropes mixed in in some circumstances, "gas the Jews" was chanted at a protest in Sydney, a Brooklyn protest was called "Brooklyn Flood" a name inspired by the attack, a Chicago protest had a hang glider as a symbol. Though that is far from the majority. At even another level, claims of antisemitism get thrown around in bad faith in an attempt to silence opposition rather than engage with the actual arguments. An all too common tactic these days.

    Smarter and way more involved people than me haven't been able to untangle the spiral of violence there, I have nothing really to add. It seems to me though that the extremist forces in the region need to be marginalized and moderate forces need to be championed. People that are willing to talk rather than flip the table over if they don't get everything they want. There are several cross faction groups in the area that are focused on reconciliation. I can't remember the names off hand but one was a group of Palestinian and Israeli mothers who have lost children in the conflict.

    marcitkoShoshin1
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 26

    A case of history repeating itself...

    The latest phase of the undeclared war in the Middle East is based upon a profound miscalculation. The bombing raids deep into Egyptian territory will not persuade the civilian population to surrender, but will stiffen their resolve to resist. This is the lesson of all aerial bombardment. The Vietnamese who have endured years of American bombing have responded not by capitulation, but by shooting down more enemy aircraft. In 1940 my own fellow-countrymen resisted Hitler’s bombing raids with an unprecedent unity and determination. For this reason, the present Israeli attacks will fail in their essential purpose, but at the same time they must be condemned vigorously throughout the world.

    The development of the crisis in the Middle East is both dangerous and instructive. For over twenty years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to ‘reason’ and has suggested ‘negotiations’. This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has taken already by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression.

    The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is also an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.

    The refugees who surround Palestine in their hundreds of thousands were described recently by the Washington journalist I.F. Stone as ‘the moral milestone around the neck of world Jewry’. Many of the refugees are now well into the third decade of their precarious existence in temporary settlements. The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was ‘given’ by a foreign Power to another people for the creation of a new State. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers have increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty?

    It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East.

    We are frequently told that we must sympathize with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. I see in this suggestion no reason to perpetuate the suffering. What Israel is doing today can not be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy. Not only does Israel condemn a vast number of refugees to misery; not only are many Arabs under occupation condemned to military rule; but also Israel condemns the Arab nations, only recently emerging from colonial status, to continuing impoverishment as military demands take precedence over national development.

    All who want to see an end to bloodshed in the Middle East must ensure that any settlement does not contain the seeds of future conflict. Justice requires that the first step towards a settlement must be an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied in June 1967. A new world campaign is needed to help bring justice to the long-suffering people of the Middle East.

    Bertrand Russell, January 31, 1970

    [This statement on the Middle East was read on 3rd February, 1970, the day after Bertrand Russell’s death, to an International Conference of Parliamentarians meeting in Cairo.]

  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    Shoshin1
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    It seems a lot of the Palestinian diaspora has been heavily affected by images of the Israeli offensive…

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/27/war-gaza-lesson-western-hypocrisy-international-community

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited November 28

    @SuraShine said:

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    Sorry if it came across that way to you, my intention was to highlight the heavy handed actions of the Israeli "government" and its "military" towards the Palestinian civilian population and not 'demonise' Israel...

    There is no question that 'Hamas' committed horrendous war crimes against Israeli civilians, men, woman and children and should be held accountable for what they have done ....

    However the coverage of Mainstream Western media outlets over the last month or so, has been quite one sided when reporting what is actually happening now in Gaza, but social media and its easy access has changed the dominance of mainstream media outlets, people are now seeing firsthand reports from civilians on the ground who are using their phones to document the carnage...This phenomena of videoing events firsthand using ones phone (before the mainstream media censor what their reporters see and report on) is now becoming popular...this is not to say that manipulation can not occur with such use...

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    It is sad that anti Semitism ( both Jews and Arabs are Semites...a thing we tend to overlook) is on the rise again, and due to what is happening in Gaza, those who hold strong anti Semitic views ( a strong dislike for both Arabs and Jews) will use this conflict to target both Moslems and Jews living in the West......

    Minority groups in the West and elsewhere always tend to suffer collectively (regardless of their personal views) when a situation occurs involving members of a group of those affiliated with a particular minority group and is publicised by the dominant media outlets of both the left and right wing ...for example in the West, minority ethnic groups, such as people of colour, Moslems, Jews, and members of the LGBTQI ....

    And as I mentioned before...

    I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

    (the Jewish state=The Israeli government and not all the Israeli people-I know Israelis and other Jewish people living on the island who strongly oppose the Israeli government's actions )

    If the US, the UK and the European Union had immediately stepped and used their influence to stop the bombing of the civilian population in Gaza by Israeli forces, when the extent of the bombing first came to light...anti Jewish sentiment which we are seeing now may not have risen to the extent it is rising to now, they have opened the door for the true anti Semites to come out of the woodwork and more innocent people both Jew and Arab will suffer... they ( the US, the UK and the European Union ) and the present Israeli government have a lot to answer for when it comes to the present situation...

    Studies have shown that traumatic experiences can be pass down from mother to child....So just image the impact on the mental health and well being of "all" those in war zones who are suffering...

    Hurt people, hurt people...

    1,200 Israelis killed, mostly civilians and almost 20,000 Palestinians killed, mostly civilians

    There are no winners in war...

    marcitkoSuraShine
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran
    edited November 28

    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    Shoshin1
  • @Jeroen said:
    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    I couldn't agree more ....

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Speaking of elephants.

    So many different groups, focusing upon the imagined differences between themselves and others, use those examinations as dodge away from facing how similar they actually are to each another.
    The old are just the young at the ending of that journey, the governments are just average folks under power's seductive touch.

    Too often, those who cry the loudest for others to change, are the very ones least willing to change themselves.

    marcitkoShoshin1Kotishka
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    personmarcitkoShoshin1
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    @Jeroen said:
    What it comes down to is that somewhere there are bitter old men entrusted with the work of government who have the gall to command enthusiastic young men to go fight when they should know better. In fact what they should be doing is seeking therapy, and both the Hamas and Israeli commanders are of this type.

    There is a good case to be made that anyone wielding political power should be subjected to rigorous psychiatric examinations at regular intervals. The system should be doing a better job of removing psychopaths from public office.

    I appreciate the sentiment that we want wise, stable leaders. I think this solution isn't a very good one. At one level I think its undemocratic to have an individual or panel tell citizens who their leader can or can't be. I also worry about the politicization, and thus ruination, of psychology. For example, the personality trait of openness to experience is correlated with progressives and the personality trait of conscientiousness with conservatives. A politicized psychology might pathologize close mindedness or carelessness according to whoever has the power to do so.

    howKotishkaShoshin1
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    The Goldwater episode in 1964 may be of interest…

    https://www.psychiatry.org/news-room/goldwater-rule

    person
  • SuraShineSuraShine South Australia Veteran

    @Shoshin1 said:

    @SuraShine said:

    @Shoshin1 said:

    Yes the attack on Israeli settlers by Hamas and the amount killed and the taking of hostages was horrendous and my heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones

    Israel's response, the indiscriminate slaughter of over 15 thousand mostly innocent Palestinian civilians, including over 5,000 children and more than 3,000 women was uncalled for , it's barbaric, yet most Western governments do nothing but pay lip service...to the heart wrenching scenes from Gaza...

    There, fixed it for you. By adding BUT to a statement, you unintentionally (or maybe not, I won't presume to speak for you) indicate one is deserving of the horrors they have suffered. And I really don't think that's fair.

    Sorry if it came across that way to you, my intention was to highlight the heavy handed actions of the Israeli "government" and its "military" towards the Palestinian civilian population and not 'demonise' Israel...

    There is no question that 'Hamas' committed horrendous war crimes against Israeli civilians, men, woman and children and should be held accountable for what they have done ....

    However the coverage of Mainstream Western media outlets over the last month or so, has been quite one sided when reporting what is actually happening now in Gaza, but social media and its easy access has changed the dominance of mainstream media outlets, people are now seeing firsthand reports from civilians on the ground who are using their phones to document the carnage...This phenomena of videoing events firsthand using ones phone (before the mainstream media censor what their reporters see and report on) is now becoming popular...this is not to say that manipulation can not occur with such use...

    As someone who has both Jewish and some Palestinian friends, I know from what both sides have said that the general public at large are not being shown the whole truth. I don't care what side you view it from, no one deserves it and while Israel are being demonized, Jews globally should not. If it's really about Israel, why attack, firebomb synagogues and schools of Jews in Europe and Australia?......

    It is sad that anti Semitism ( both Jews and Arabs are Semites...a thing we tend to overlook) is on the rise again, and due to what is happening in Gaza, those who hold strong anti Semitic views ( a strong dislike for both Arabs and Jews) will use this conflict to target both Moslems and Jews living in the West......

    Minority groups in the West and elsewhere always tend to suffer collectively (regardless of their personal views) when a situation occurs involving members of a group of those affiliated with a particular minority group and is publicised by the dominant media outlets of both the left and right wing ...for example in the West, minority ethnic groups, such as people of colour, Moslems, Jews, and members of the LGBTQI ....

    And as I mentioned before...

    I have nothing against the Israelis people who want to protect what they call their homeland, but sadly the use of extreme violence by the Jewish state will no doubt lead to a backlash where more cases of Jewish people being targeted around the world, even the Jewish people who oppose Israel's present government and their polices when it comes to the treatment of Palestinian people...

    (the Jewish state=The Israeli government and not all the Israeli people-I know Israelis and other Jewish people living on the island who strongly oppose the Israeli government's actions )

    If the US, the UK and the European Union had immediately stepped and used their influence to stop the bombing of the civilian population in Gaza by Israeli forces, when the extent of the bombing first came to light...anti Jewish sentiment which we are seeing now may not have risen to the extent it is rising to now, they have opened the door for the true anti Semites to come out of the woodwork and more innocent people both Jew and Arab will suffer... they ( the US, the UK and the European Union ) and the present Israeli government have a lot to answer for when it comes to the present situation...

    Studies have shown that traumatic experiences can be pass down from mother to child....So just image the impact on the mental health and well being of "all" those in war zones who are suffering...

    Hurt people, hurt people...

    1,200 Israelis killed, mostly civilians and almost 20,000 Palestinians killed, mostly civilians

    There are no winners in war...

    I'm sorry if in my post I came across as accusatory. It wasn't my intention. But I truly do appreciate your reply :heart:

    Shoshin1
  • @SuraShine said:
    I'm sorry if in my post I came across as accusatory. It wasn't my intention. But I truly do appreciate your reply :heart:

    No worries @SuraShine ...Thank you ...

  • UNICEF spokesperson James Elder who's in Gaza

    This is not a war on terror, it is looking more like an all out terror attack by the Israeli government itself, terrorising and massacring innocent men, women and children....whilst the world stands by and lets it happen...

    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind

    ~Mahatma Gandhi~

    IdleChaterSteve_B
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