Spirituality vs Psychology

person

I tend to lump these two together, in the sense of a psycho-spiritual framework. But maybe there is some distinction of importance that my point of view misses?

My initial thought was maybe some sort of transcendence, but psychology does talk about that. Though it is still fairly unexplored. I don't think my technical knowledge of the two is sufficient to really play around with the comparisons.

Do others either separate or tie the two together in some way?

how

I think the two terms have both overlap and distinctions from each other.

I tend to use the word "psychology" when there is a specific focus on a controlling of one's mental and emotional factors. Psychology is goal-oriented.
I reserve the word "spirituality" for when a transcendence of the limitations of those factors is the focus. Spirituality points to the goal of goalessness.
Psychology can soften much of suffering's cause but ultimately remains hobbled by attachments to its processes.
Spirituality offers a path towards suffering's cessation through a steadfast addressing of all attachments.

Vastmind

I definitely tie Buddhism and Psychology together…but that’s bec I consider myself secular and don’t really dabble on the spiritual side of the shore.

Shoshin1

Both focus on the mind, and both are important tools, and can and do work well together...one just provides the means to delve a little deeper ...

Gay Watson's "The Dialogue Between Buddhism, Psychotherapy and the Mind Sciences" blends the two...

" Buddhism has always been concerned with feelings, emotions, sensations, and cognition. The Buddha points both to cognitive and emotional causes of suffering. The emotional cause is desire and its negative opposite, aversion. The cognitive cause is ignorance of the way things truly occur, or of three marks of existence: that all things are unsatisfactory, impermanent, and without essential self.

The noble eightfold path is, from this psychological viewpoint, an attempt to change patterns of thought and behavior. It is for this reason that the first element of the path is right understanding (sammā-diṭṭhi), which is how one's mind views the world. Under the wisdom (paññā) subdivision of the noble eightfold path, this worldview is intimately connected with the second element, right thought (sammā-saṅkappa), which concerns the patterns of thought and intention that controls one's actions. These elements can be seen at work, for example, in the opening verses of the Dhammapada: The noble eightfold path is also the fourth noble truth.

"All experience is preceded by mind/perception,
Led by mind,
Made by mind.
Speak or act with a corrupted mind,
And suffering follows
As the wagon wheel follows the hoof of the ox!
All experience is preceded by mind/perception,
Led by mind,
Made by mind.
Speak or act with a peaceful mind,
And happiness follows
Like a never-departing shadow!"

Thus, by altering one's distorted worldview, bringing out "tranquil perception" in the place of "perception polluted", one is able to ease suffering. Watson points this out from a psychological standpoint:

Research has shown that repeated action, learning, and memory can actually change the nervous system physically, altering both synaptic strength and connections. Such changes may be brought about by cultivated change in emotion and action; they will, in turn, change subsequent experience !"

Jeroen

Hmmm. Hmm hm. I think quite a lot could be written about this, but although there are definitely some areas of overlap such as in transpersonal psychology I would say they are largely separate. Psychology has large areas dedicated to the dysfunction of mind, in for example clinical psychology, and areas like developmental psychology which don’t really fit into a spiritual worldview.

I think the person who most clearly hinted at the connection between the two was Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. A lot of psychology is aimed at the mind in the lower levels of that hierarchy, where people are concerned with survival or the social paradigms. Spirituality is the very peak, the highest level of realisation in the hierarchy.

So while they exist on the same spectrum, and to a certain extent influence each other, the understanding of one is not necessary for a good knowledge of the other. Large (and old) religions such as Christianity and Islam which account for the majority of the world population have no interest in psychology. However leading alternative figures such as Osho and Jiddu Krishnamurti are interested in the boundary line, there were a lot of psychologists and psychotherapists who came to the Osho commune early on in the 1970’s to work with him and do experimental groups.

As @how pointed out, both disciplines are concerned with suffering and helping those who suffer. You see that in psychotherapy as well as in spiritual books such as Eckhart Tolle’s The Power of Now which is basically a self-help manual for transcending suffering modalities of mind.

Spirituality goes into metaphysics and esoteric realms which psychology doesn’t really partake of, it has for example a view of the collective unconscious which includes astral realms where people can journey, which is more the domain of shamans and gods than that of psychologists with notepads and spectacles.

Fosdick

I've visited this question in the past, but in the end failed to discover any utility in making the distinction. The two are sufficiently interconnected that I have thus far found no reason to separate them - doing so only opens yet another distracting can of worms. I rarely use either term.

person

@Jeroen said:
Hmmm. Hmm hm. I think quite a lot could be written about this, but although there are definitely some areas of overlap such as in transpersonal psychology I would say they are largely separate. Psychology has large areas dedicated to the dysfunction of mind, in for example clinical psychology, and areas like developmental psychology which don’t really fit into a spiritual worldview.

I think the person who most clearly hinted at the connection between the two was Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. A lot of psychology is aimed at the mind in the lower levels of that hierarchy, where people are concerned with survival or the social paradigms. Spirituality is the very peak, the highest level of realisation in the hierarchy.

So while they exist on the same spectrum, and to a certain extent influence each other, the understanding of one is not necessary for a good knowledge of the other. Large religions such as Christianity and Islam which account for the majority of the world population have no interest in psychology. However leading alternative figures such as Osho and Jiddu Krishnamurti are interested in the boundary line, there were a lot of psychologists and psychotherapists who came to the Osho commune early on in the 1970’s to work with him and do experimental groups.

As @how pointed out, both disciplines are concerned with suffering and helping those who suffer. You see that in psychotherapy as well as in books such as Eckhart Tolle’s The Power of Now which is basically a self-help manual for transcending suffering modalities of mind.

Spirituality goes into metaphysics and esoteric realms which psychology doesn’t really partake of, it has for example a view of the collective unconscious which includes astral realms where people can journey, which is more the realm of shamans and gods than that of psychologists with notepads and spectacles.

That makes sense to me. I feel like psychology barely has an inkling at the depths and states a human mind can experience. The psychologist I follow most closely and have shared here Scott Barry Kaufman is a humanistic, positive psychologist. He really likes Maslow and has written an in depth book on him and his work. His focus is on creativity, integration and transcendence. He's written a book on transcendence which I think is a sort of tip toe into the depth of the spiritual world.

“The concept of self-actualization and the transcendent values, which include justice, beauty, meaningfulness, and wholeness, provide a blueprint for a better world. This very well-written volume not only captures Maslow’s work but infuses it with the spirit of inspiration. This book is a major advance in psychology.”
—Aaron T. Beck, M.D., professor emeritus of psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania

“As a pioneer of humanistic psychology, Maslow is frequently referenced but rarely un­derstood. Scott Barry Kaufman is here to change that. He does a first-rate job restoring the classic pyramid based on Maslow’s own revisions and updating self-actualization in light of contemporary science.”
—Adam Grant, New York Times–bestselling author of Originals and Give and Take, and host of the WorkLife podcast

“In this book Kaufman studies the legacy of Abraham Maslow’s life’s work in humanistic psychology and expands on this with his own insights and studies. The book gives us a path to self-actualization, to becoming the best person we can possibly become. In the process we discover we do this connected to others and all reality.”
—Sharon Salzberg, author of Lovingkindness and Real Happiness

https://scottbarrykaufman.com/books/transcend/

lobster

Psychology can soften much of suffering's cause but ultimately remains hobbled by attachments to its processes.

Imagine a 'soft science' precise in its effects but too inexpressible for anything but allusion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allusion

...and now back to the 'vs'...

Jeroen

@how said:
Psychology can soften much of suffering's cause but ultimately remains hobbled by attachments to its processes.

As an expert-by-experience I spent some time working with people with mental health difficulties, and I have to say I have yet to come across someone who is genuinely helped by a psychologist. Most of todays psychologists try and solve every clients problems with a course of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), which is the one therapy they have which is actually proven to be somewhat effective. Unfortunately it is not always applicable.

The expert-by-experience approach starts with a home visit and a shared cup of tea, an exchange of stories about problems past and present, and then the offering of helpful tips and approaches. Central is the idea of resilience, that the person who has the problem will be most motivated to work through solutions, will have to buy into those solutions and will be putting in the effort.

person

@Jeroen said:

@how said:
Psychology can soften much of suffering's cause but ultimately remains hobbled by attachments to its processes.

As an expert-by-experience I spent some time working with people with mental health difficulties, and I have to say I have yet to come across someone who is genuinely helped by a psychologist. Most of todays psychologists try and solve every clients problems with a course of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), which is the one therapy they have which is actually proven to be somewhat effective. Unfortunately it is not always applicable.

The expert-by-experience approach starts with a home visit and a shared cup of tea, an exchange of stories about problems past and present, and then the offering of helpful tips and approaches. Central is the idea of resilience, that the person who has the problem will be most motivated to work through solutions, will have to buy into those solutions and will be putting in the effort.

I've wondered this for a while now too. CBT has been shown to be an effective treatment in general, but people have varying dispositions so it may not be the best way to treat everyone. Some people will be adept at cognitively reframing their experiences, others may be better served with some sort of emotional support. Josh Korda of Dharma Punx talks about some of this. I think many of them are newer modalities that I don't have much knowledge of and they don't speak to me personally so I don't really understand them.

I think a bad therapist can probably make someone worse off, particularly children who don't have the life experience to know if something is off. For example in the 80s there was the satanic panic where therapists thinking they were uncovering child abuse were actually unconsciously coaxing people to "remember" very traumatic events that never really happened. The satanic portion was debunked but the repressed memory movement continued through the 90s until it too was largely discredited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repressed_memory

Jeroen

@person said:
CBT has been shown to be an effective treatment in general, but people have varying dispositions so it may not be the best way to treat everyone.

Yes, and CBTs frequent reliance on exposure is also not always appropriate. I have a close friend who has a habit of getting acute psychotic breaks on holiday, and she has been held on closed wards in Morocco, Crete, Japan and Bali. It was traumatic for her, and she has a psychologist who is supposed to help her with it. It hasn’t gone well. But she thinks of a psychologist as a ‘talking therapist’ who can help her sort out her issues, so she persists.

I think a bad therapist can probably make someone worse off, particularly children who don't have the life experience to know if something is off. For example in the 80s there was the satanic panic where therapists thinking they were uncovering child abuse were actually unconsciously coaxing people to "remember" very traumatic events that never really happened. The satanic portion was debunked but the repressed memory movement continued through the 90s until it too was largely discredited.

Yes I remember coming across mention of it in the newspaper. But psychologists can do good work, as well. I just suspect they are subject to the same frustration as my local doctor, who sometimes complains that she never gets to cure anyone.

person

@Jeroen said:
Yes, and CBTs frequent reliance on exposure is also not always appropriate.

Its likely all about wisdom and knowing what and when to push. I'm a believer in exposure therapy, it needs to be in titrated doses appropriate to the individual though. If you just throw someone in the deep end of the pool you're at least as likely, if not more, to only traumatized them further. When we don't confront problems and fears that signals to the brain that they are indeed something to fear and exacerbates the problem.

But she thinks of a psychologist as a ‘talking therapist’ who can help her sort out her issues, so she persists.

Talk really only is surface level. We have to be able to take the message and integrate it on a psychic and emotional level to let it change us at a deeper level. That takes a more contemplative and meditative approach.

I come to psychology from having first delved extensively in spirituality. To me its more of an addition to spiritual work. I imagine for those who enter psychology first, without that spiritual foundation, they'll hold it in higher esteem and trust than it probably deserves. In comparison to spiritual traditions its still young and learning what works and what doesn't.

I just suspect they are subject to the same frustration as my local doctor, who sometimes complains that she never gets to cure anyone.

Doctors can really only fix broken things, they can't really cure anyone. The best they can do is offer guidance or a pill to relieve symptoms. I don't know if this is a modern thing or a western thing, but it seems we've come to rely too much on others to cure us rather than taking responsibility for our own health.

Shoshin1

Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy is based on Buddhist meditation practices and is used by some therapists..It's been around for a while now...

The concept of mindfulness, central to MBCT, is derived from Buddhist meditation. Mindfulness involves paying attention to the present moment non-judgmentally, a principle found in practices such as Vipassana and Zen meditation.
MBCT incorporates meditation techniques like body scans, mindful breathing, and mindful movement, which are adapted from traditional Buddhist practices.
Both MBCT and Buddhist meditation emphasise awareness, acceptance, and the idea of observing thoughts and feelings without attachment or judgment.

Vastmind

MBCT and CBT material/practices is what I used for my oldest daughter’s rehab after a psychotic break. It happened during COVID and centers, treatment facilities, even out patient etc. were not taking new patients once they released from the hospital So…. My youngest daughter and I did 24 shifts at home caring and constantly reinforced the same subjects or topics we covered each week with her. It was a full time job, for real. I learned soooo much. Each family member was required to familiarize themselves with our curriculum before interaction with her. It was literal 24 hr mindfulness

person

@Vastmind said:
MBCT and CBT material/practices is what I used for my oldest daughter’s rehab after a psychotic break. It happened during COVID and centers, treatment facilities, even out patient etc. were not taking new patients once they released from the hospital So…. My youngest daughter and I did 24 shifts at home caring and constantly reinforced the same subjects or topics we covered each week with her. It was a full time job, for real. I learned soooo much. Each family member was required to familiarize themselves with our curriculum before interaction with her. It was literal 24 hr mindfulness

She's very lucky to have you. I'm moved by your story. I had some of my own mental health issues (minor compared to Aleena) and my mother and sister were there for me in a way that I'm eternally grateful for.

pegembara

We start with the basics first which includes psychology ie. building up confidence and self esteem.

For many this is good enough but for a few it isn't. Spirituality seeks to transcend and for most, it is a bridge too far.

"Many deities and men, yearning after good, have pondered on blessings.[4] Pray, tell me the greatest blessing!"

[The Buddha:]

"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.

To reside in a suitable locality,[6] to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course[7] — this is the greatest blessing.

To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing.

To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation — this is the greatest blessing.

To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.

To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing.

To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.

To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.

Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana— this is the greatest blessing.

A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune,[16] from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated[17] — this is the greatest blessing.

Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."[18]

Jeroen

@person said:
I come to psychology from having first delved extensively in spirituality. To me its more of an addition to spiritual work.

I saw psychology and spirituality together when I was very young, and later had a more scientific upbringing up to and including a Bachelors in Engineering at university. It took me a long time to shed an over-reliance on scientific principles.

In the end I came to see spirituality and mental health, including psychology, as extensions of each other. It helped me during my recovery from my breakdown to focus on a spiritual life, to come to a measure of purity.