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Shame vs Guilt
person
Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
These are two emotions that are similar but have a meaningful distinction. Guilt is the feeling that we've done something wrong, bad, hurtful, etc. and want to correct or make it better. Shame is the feeling that we've done something wrong, bad, hurtful, etc. because we're wrong, bad, hurtful. Guilt promotes improvement, shame locks us into defeat.
A short 24 second clip
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-rJNmjDA5nvQ0uZtaBxhSnS6OR_XbrVA?si=2pfgZS-yCr3GF20K
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Comments
Two major components of certain religious movements are Shame and Guilt.
They are used to keep people down, subservient to the religious "leaders" or justify violence against the "others".
On an individual level, Guilt and Shame are quite destructive. Yes , they can be turned into potentially constructive tools, they are ultimately unbearable weights carried uselessly upon one's shoulders.
Buddhism tells us to discard these boulders. Instead, replace them with ever growing compassion, empathy , courage and love for self and others.
While it’s true that they can be destructive, in their natural form they can be helpful. Without anyone providing any weight to them, they are the natural reminders that our feelings provide when we’ve done something “wrong”. Of course, when other people start to play on them, be they priests or parents, these emotions can go very wrong.
I remember once reading in a Tibetan Buddhist text that shame is the most useful of the emotions, and that someone who no longer feels any shame can’t be trusted. So perhaps non-Christian cultures look differently on shame and guilt than those who have the concept of Original Sin thrust at them at an early age (a fate I luckily avoided).
I believe that these feelings are there to be set right, not to be ignored. If you feel ashamed of something you’ve done, or guilty about something, set about righting the balance and making your heart clean again.
A story about emotion (and shame, and forgiveness, and what came after)
I suppose part of it comes down to what is considered bad. Does a religion teach you that premarital, or homosexual sex is bad? You may not think you're bad for doing them, but the construction of them as bad will have some degree of control on your behavior.
I think what people are doing with the terms is partly semantic. Trying to distinguish between two similar feelings, where one can have positive impacts and the other negative.
A minor example from my own life. I was on a boat with my family joking around and I grabbed my young nephew (5 or 6 at the time) and pretended to push him in the water, his older brother loved that sort of thing when he was at that age. It scared him pretty bad and he started to cry and went to his mom. I felt guilty about it and apologized, I didn't think to myself about what a horrible person I am or anything. It was healthy for me to feel an emotion which caused me to repair and apologize.
Other things I've done in my life that have caused me guilt that I haven't repaired have been weights. Though I wouldn't say unbearable and they have been a spur for change.
I wanted to look this up. I think what I found is similar to what I'm trying to say, but didn't really express. That guilt is a spur to change and growth, but when hung onto and directed towards self hate turns into shame and becomes unhealthy.
Another example from this often told story of the Dalai Lama's meeting with some westerners.
From a language POV…I grew up using the word shame as a description of OTHERS guilt, not necessarily a different word…just a location difference, haha. Here or there.
For example, when I perform an action, if an icky bad feeling arises, I recognize it as the feeling we call guilt……If I see/notice another person do something that in my opinion they should feel guilt, but they appear not to…I say “ that person has no shame, I swear”.
Or…” they did such and such, and bec they felt shamed or shame, they tried to make it up to me or make things right with the group.” Or…I feel guilty bec I think I might have shamed him too hard
I learned at an early age that self loathing and self hatred solves nothing and becomes mental poison very quickly and does serious long term damage. Guilt is healthy emotion/feeling and should be used as a signal for some kind of change in that situation.
Understanding that all people make mistakes and you just have to take accountability, adjust accordingly and move on….And knowing that…flows into compassion for forgiving others for their mistakes.
We can pacify the mind, yet still think
Calm the emotions, yet still experience
Relax the sense gates, yet still feel
I knew there was a dharma plan...
For example here is a new practice bench for meditation. Not yet open to the public. We 'accidentally', without guilt or shame found it in a New London Park 'under construction'. Not yet open. Not yet open to whom? Pah!
I declares it open.
King Ashoka of India was a powerful war king. However, upon adopting Buddhism, realized that war did nothing but inflict pain and suffering. He ceased his conquests and even returned land to previously conquered nations. Not out of shame or guilt, but out of compassion. He established many reforms aimed at improving the quality of life for the common people, including religious freedom. He became know as a great Buddhist Sovereign.
Guilt is embedded in the Western culture, primarily through the various Christians sects,
where one must always atone for one's sins.
Buddhism is embedded in the culture of compassion, empathy, self-reflection and mercy.
Of course this is a generalization. As this is not intended to be a comparative religion discussion, I will leave it as is.
Peace to all
This rings true to me and I had to reflect on what it is about this contrast. I think in the past several years my path has been more in the western Buddhist scene. I've heard a few times about the attempt to distinguish guilt from shame and I think it is a valuable distinction for a western mind embedded in that way of thinking.
But yeah, within the Asian communities I spent time among earlier there is less a feeling of bad for oneself and more a concern of well being for the other.
As an addendum to Western guilt, I listened to a podcast today about changing one's mind and part of it was about the role shaming plays. Like you said earlier about religion it compels people to comply. It works on the fear people have of social isolation, a sort of death that is often greater than the fear of physical death. They added that it only works on members of that group though. When applied to outsiders it only serves to turn the shamer into an enemy that needs to be fought and resisted.
Comply?
Is that like Complan? (the 'nutritional' drink)
Today I was reading about the Beatitudes, which are not a Jazz bunch of cool dudes or hipsters but Christian lovelies.
Hardly Buddhism? Hardly not.
@lobster
The Christian faith has many beautiful aspects. Much of the core regarding our interactions an relations to others accord with Buddhist concepts.
As practiced, Christianity has an undercurrent which includes shame, guilt and fear.
Some of he Christian sects lean heavily into this, like a strong rip tide or undertow, , other, to their credit, do not this undercurrent, emphasizing, instead the more positive aspects of their faith.
This does not mean that Christians are bad or that the Christian faith, per se, is bad.
In my original statement, I was merely highlighting a certain aspect of the difference in the Buddhist view vs the Christian view in that the latter does have the undercurrent of potential Shame and Guilt (and fear) whereas that is not present in Buddhist teachings.
Peace to all
It’s interesting, I always saw the struggle against the dominant Christian faith as my father and my mother’s struggle. They were of the generation who threw off that yoke from parents who wanted to instill it, for whom Osho’s book on Jesus and the gospel of Thomas came as a clarifying wave.
In my generation, most schools were anthroposophical or non-denominational, you no longer were fed the whole original sin story, or indeed even the idea that there was such a thing as sin. I never got taught biblical stories, I heard more things like St Joris fights the Dragon or the Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm or sometimes a story about an Angel.
Currently the Netherlands is over 50% of ‘no religion’ or ‘spiritual but not religious’ denominations. There are about 10% of the Islamic faith, and about 1% Buddhists, and the rest are Christians of various denominations. There is still a Bible Belt which stretches across the country of more religious communities.