Meditation and mental health

Tavs

Recently I've been getting very depressed and anxious, despite all my years of meditation and more recently, mantras and prayers. When I'm actually doing the practice, I feel much calmer but as soon as something appears which bothers me, I'm back to square one. So I don't know if my practice is actually helping my mind or not.

Vastmind

Do you have access to mental health care/help? I would strongly suggest that….i say that bec depression and anxiety usually can’t be addressed with just spirituality alone.

Tavs

Thanks yes, I'll be speaking to a couple of people about it this week.

Jeroen

I’d recommend keeping meditation sessions to not more than 20 minutes, or even to stop entirely for a while. Sometimes meditation can make things surface which are not ideal for normal living, and it’s best to take a cue from the normal mind, and just let things settle for a month or so.

I have some experience with mental health and meditation, and have worked as an expert-by-experience in the mental health field. It’s common for people with mental health difficulties to cut back on meditation when they’re not feeling well.

Jeffrey

I have mental health issues and I also adjust meditation durations when I am having symptoms. Shorter sessions. Also walking meditation can be good for depression because it gets the body going. Mindfulness during and between meditations can help you stay in the present and to "be with" difficult thoughts, feelings, and sensations. I like the RAIN exercise that psychologist and spiritualist Tara Brach talks about.

Tavs

RAIN exercise, I've not heard of that, what is it?

Tavs

And thanks Jeroen and Jeffrey for the advice about meditation. It never occurred to me that I might need to do less.

Shoshin1

@Tavs said:
Recently I've been getting very depressed and anxious, despite all my years of meditation and more recently, mantras and prayers. When I'm actually doing the practice, I feel much calmer but as soon as something appears which bothers me, I'm back to square one. So I don't know if my practice is actually helping my mind or not.

@Tavs
You may find this guided mindfulness meditation helpful

Mark Williams, the Oxford University professor of clinical psychology, he’s best known for co-developing Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT). MBCT combines cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) techniques with mindfulness practices derived from Buddhist meditation. It was designed primarily to help prevent relapse in people with recurrent depression by teaching them to recognise and disengage from negative thought patterns before they spiral.

There are 8 guided meditations he will take you through ...

Be well, stay mindful, stay focus, be present. 🙏🙏🙏

Tavs

Thanks for that Shoshin1 🙂

marcitko

Hey Tavs,
Since I find so much benefit, I joke that I'm the sports guru and that if I did not exercise on a particular day I don't get to complain.
Pretty much every single mental health resource of any approach will advocate exercise. If you aren't already, go exercise!
In addition to anxiety and depression, it will improve literally 100 other things.

Tavs

Yes my main exercise is walking.

Shoshin1

If you are close to a forest or countryside it good to wander around there. Connecting with nature does wonders for one's mental health.

lobster

The esoteric traditions of dharma, meditation and yoga and most spiritual practice will bring up what Christians call, "The Dark Night of The Soul"

As if we don't have enough to contend with.

This is when we retreat, go on retreat or retreat into [some of the ways and things others have recommended)

I recommend in no particular disorder:

• A change of diet
• Massage (if available especially with essential oils)
• Exercise (if possible)
• Therapy, conventional and unconventional
• Nature (as mentioned) actual or virtual

Everything in fact according to need and preference and availability. For example I may go to my local Indian shop and get some stress relief.today:
https://sgrh.com/blog/top-10-ayurvedic-remedies-for-stress-relief-
You might have different availability, maybe Chinese medicine...

The important thing is be flexible and remember you are on a path, not a snake-oil practice.

A break IS part of Dharma.
https://theculinarycure.com/kristens-cure-all-chicken-soup/

Jeroen

@Tavs said:
And thanks Jeroen and Jeffrey for the advice about meditation. It never occurred to me that I might need to do less.

No problem. Too much meditation can cause a variety of issues that look like mental health problems, in those who are sensitive. You’ll find that at meditation retreats they often ask about a background of mental health problems in the family, and may refuse entry to the retreat if there are enough “red flags” in someone’s application. The reason for this is that some people can suffer a breakthrough with accompanying mental health issues, sometimes even psychosis, during a retreat.

As far as I’m concerned, meditation doesn’t have to be done in long sessions to get the benefits. Something like 10 or 20 minutes a day can be enough.

Tavs

Thanks Lobster for reminding me about Ayurvedic herbs 🌿 I used to take Ashwaganda for stress but Tulsi might be better for mood.

lobster

So I don't know if my practice is actually helping my mind or not.

Knot!
Temporary.

Nothing can help 'your mind', until you don't have one.

Tavs

Thanks Lobster 🙂

Ren_in_black

@Tavs said:
RAIN exercise, I've not heard of that, what is it?

I was curious about that too. I found this: https://www.tarabrach.com/rain/

If nothing else, it seems like another flavor of guided meditation that one can add to their spice rack.

lobster

Exactly so! @Ren_in_black

You will never have an absolutely 'clear' mind/body/emotional vehicle but if your spice rack is either simple or multi-varied, you can cook.

It depends on how committed and serious you are in your art/practice/changing understanding...

For example: Being 'mindless' denotes the idiocy of many people. It is also a form of samadhi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

Jeroen

In my experience I have found rest, beach walks, contemplation and Buddhist literature to be conducive to restoring mental health. I enjoyed sutra anthologies a lot in this space, as long as you keep in mind that not every goal the Buddha sets his monks needs to be a goal for you. Relaxation and rest should be the primary concern, letting the body and mind heal themselves.

IdleChater

An awful lot of medical advice being given, by people unqualified for it.

@Tavs: If you're having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not a forum like this.

Jeroen

@IdleChater said:
if you’re having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not to a forum like this.

With the proviso that a doctor will likely prescribe you pills, which will have side effects, etc.

Ren_in_black

@IdleChater said:
If you're having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not a forum like this.

I think there's room for both things. Seemed to me that Tavs was reaching out with some curiosity about how his practice and mental health challenges were (or were not) related.

IdleChater

@Ren_in_black said:

@IdleChater said:
If you're having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not a forum like this.

I think there's room for both things.

I disagree.

Jeroen

@IdleChater said:

@Ren_in_black said:

@IdleChater said:
If you're having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not a forum like this.

I think there's room for both things.

I disagree.

That is of course your right. However, it is a fact that the intersection of mental health and meditation is not an area that is well served with knowledgeable doctors at the moment.

IdleChater

@Jeroen said:

it is a fact that the intersection of mental health and meditation is not an area that is well served with knowledgeable doctors at the moment.

Not a fact at all jeron, and it's irresponsible to make any statement that would erode confidence in modern medicine, especially in the area of mental health.

There are plenty of psychologists and psychiatrists that are familiar with Buddhist meditation methods and are able to integrate that into more traditional modalities.

There are schools that include this in their curriculum. Naropa has a complete program around it.

Lemme ask you a question - if someone, with diabetes, came in here with questions about what insulin dosage they should use, what would you prescribe?

IdleChater

@Jeroen said:

That is of course your right.

Thank you.

It would be the OP's right to sue your ass off if they take your advice, and they are psychologically injured as a result. The owners of the site could be sued as well.

End of the site. End of our community. End of your savings.

The only thing that would save us, and you, would be if you were an actual doctor and not someone who stayed at Holiday Inn last night.

Ren_in_black

@IdleChater said:
It would be the OP's right to sue your ass off if they take your advice, and they are psychologically injured as a result. The owners of the site could be sued as well.

End of the site. End of our community. End of your savings.

I was going to stay out of this because I said my piece already. But that's not correct. Section 230 protects the forum and the site. Not only that, but the OP would bear a significant amount of legal responsibility for deciding to take medical advice from an unverified source online.

But the OP would never sue anybody, because he is a member of our community who shared his thoughts in good faith. More than one person responded that seeing a medical professional was first and foremost. And Tavs certainly wasn't asking about any kind of dosage for anything, so the diabetes comment is false equivalency.

With multiple people reminding Tavs that a doctor was necessary up front, the air was cleared for others to share their thoughts in loving-kindness, which I believe is the point of the forum.

Jeroen

Well, I’m not a US citizen or resident, so I doubt US law applies to what I write. And @Tavs, to whom comments in the thread were addressed, seems to be resident in the UK.

When I say there isn’t much doctors coverage of this area, I mean from a practical perspective. I have spoken to a half a dozen psychiatrists in the last ten years, and while most of them had heard of mindfulness, none were interested in talking about the practical effects of meditation. Mostly they want to talk about pills, the medication you’re taking.

I don’t mind being up front about qualifications. I’m not a medical professional, but I am an expert by experience. And there is nothing wrong with sharing experiences.

Tavs

Thanks Jereon. And yes I am in the UK

Tavs

In terms of meditation and medical treatment from doctors, I'm trying to get a balance.

Tavs

In the UK, although there is much talk of mindfulness and wellbeing, I don't know common it is for psychologists to recommend meditation.

Tavs

I know a medical practitioner who practices what is supposed to be a hybrid of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and mindfulness but in fact, what they do is actually far more therapy than mindfulness and I felt that they had no understanding of meditation. They also said that sometimes they "hate meditating."

Jeffrey

Jon Kabat-Zinn is a professor of medicine and teacher of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn

IdleChater

@Jeroen said:
Well, I’m not a US citizen or resident, so I doubt US law applies to what I write.

I suspect there are laws where you are that apply similarly that you could be brought into court over, or is practicing medicine without a license ok where you are?

I don’t mind being up front about qualifications. I’m not a medical professional,

That much is obvious.

but I am an expert by experience.

No, you're really not.

And there is nothing wrong with sharing experiences.

No, but if they cause harm to others, we have a problem.

IdleChater

@Vastmind said:
Do you have access to mental health care/help? I would strongly suggest that….i say that bec depression and anxiety usually can’t be addressed with just spirituality alone.

I agree. Having depression punctuated with acute anxiety, I'm no expert, but my Dr-prescribed medications work just fine. Better, in fact, than where I'd be if I relied on meditation alone.

Meditation is not a self-help regimen.

IdleChater

@Jeroen said:

@IdleChater said:
if you’re having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not to a forum like this.

With the proviso that a doctor will likely prescribe you pills, which will have side effects, etc.

yeah. My Xanax has side effects. Like sleep. A noticable buzz. Reduced appetite. No anxiety....

Vastmind

@Jeroen said:

@IdleChater said:
if you’re having mental health issues, take them to a doctor and not to a forum like this.

With the proviso that a doctor will likely prescribe you pills, which will have side effects, etc.

There could easily be different treatment plans offered to or even accepted by the patient. Medication is one option of at least several that can be used with other methods/approaches. My experience has shown that different treatment plans work for different people. It’s important that a mental health care provider work with a patient to optimize results… that the patient is willing and comfortable with.
And yes, most things we ingest have side effects. That’s not a reason to avoid medications if/when they’re needed. It’s just called making an informed decision and weighing the risks with the need.

Yes, I do think everyone was trying to help. No harmful or ill intent in this community. I just prefer to go on the safer side and suggest a professional when it comes to mental health issues.

Thanks Ren for the section reference. I sure went and read it. I knew there was something on the books, just didn’t know where/what.

Shoshin1

Meditation is a way of losing one's self and all the baggage the self has accumulated over the years .

What I mean by accumulated "baggage" is the accumulated weight of the conceptual self, the stories, the regrets, the identities, the fears, and the desires that the mind carries. Meditation, at its deepest, is not an act of doing but an act of undoing. It is a conscious, gentle setting down of that baggage.

Depression can be liken to a thought pattern cycle which locks one in one's mind where it can become very difficult to escape...A cognitive prison built and reinforced by thought patterns.

It's important to recognise that using meditation to free the mind from depression is a deeply personal journey. it is not a universal solution and may not work for everyone.

I'm reminded of one of my old sayings : I AM just a thought which thinks I AM thinking I AM just a thought. In other words... I AM what I think but ultimately I Am not my thoughts.

silent

@Tavs said:
Recently I've been getting very depressed and anxious, despite all my years of meditation and more recently, mantras and prayers. When I'm actually doing the practice, I feel much calmer but as soon as something appears which bothers me, I'm back to square one. So I don't know if my practice is actually helping my mind or not.

I was in that kind of stage for over a decade. Now I have through that. I am not sure where you are but it happened to me when I went through stage 5-7 of the insight stages in Vipassana meditation practice. These stages can be found even in Wikipedia now and you can check. It was not taught by Buddha but the chief disciple of Buddha Sariputta. Buddha taught only 3 stages of change as broad categories. First you see arising and passing, later you hate these arising and passing, and then you free from that arising and passing and become enlightened. stage 5-7 is part of the middle one when you hate them. It happened because you think there is nothing you can hold onto and therefore, first you bored and then you are being afraid and depressed, and then you feel miserable and sad. Stage 8, you are disgusted with these things and you feel you have control again and therefore, slightly better. Stage 9, you want to free from all these and some choose to become monks and nuns, stage 10, you reobserve and understand things again. Stage 11, you gained balance in your practice and view and you will feel peace you never knew in your life before. It is very near to enlightenment but it can be very long. How long each stage is also depending on your past practices, and many other factors. Hope this will help.

silent

sorry about my English. I know it is bad

silent

I recommend Joseph Goldstein. I could only access to one of his books translated into our local language when I started to meditate seriously and it was very helpful.

Tavs

Thanks Silent 🙂

lobster

@silent (welcome!)

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lobster

This podcast on 'Meditation Sickness' might be of interest...

https://blackberyl.buzzsprout.com/2044347/episodes/18100769-meditation-sickness-and-the-dys-regulation-of-qi