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Buddhism without Rebirth.- questions.
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Store consciousness (ālayavijñāna)
It may have developed from concepts in some early buddhist schools.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference"></sup>
Store consciousness accumulates all potential energy for the aggregate of the 'bodymind' (Sanskrit: namarupa), the mental (nama) and physical (rupa) manifestation of one's existence, and supplies the substance to all existences. It also receives impressions from all functions of the other consciousnesses and retains them as potential energy for their further manifestations and activities. Since it serves as the basis for the production of the other seven consciousnesses (called the "evolving" or "transforming" consciousnesses), it is also known as the base consciousness (mūla-vijñāna) or causal consciousness. Since it serves as the container for all experiential impressions (termed metaphorically as bija or "seeds"), it is also called the seed consciousness (種子識) or container consciousness.
Viññāṇa (nt.) [fr. vi+jñā; cp. Vedic vijñāna cognition]
Some early Buddhist schools may have described a dog as a 'cat' but generally a dog is a 'dog' just as cognition is 'cognition'.
It seems some early Buddhist schools sought to develop concepts about some permanent binding substance.
These concepts are very close to atman, god, brahman, etc, with the flavour of permanence.
The Wikipedia? :eek: You got to be kidding me.
Yes but what I can not figure out is this. My life is not full of so much suffering. And most people around me would agree as to their own lifes. This western life is pretty relaxed. The probability of me running into any serious trouble before death are pretty slim. If there really is nothing to fear beyond death then hey I would go for the self identification, the Yacht and the barbeque.
And I assure you that is not just me.
But if life ends at death I would say, "What problem? Oh that arrow thing again, lets discuss it on my Yacht? Maybe have a barbaque?".
See what I am getting at?
Well if you believe the suttas are correct I believe the Buddha Gotama said that. Think about it for a second. What is the purpose of me trying to evolve a mindset that does not accrue further Karma if someone else is shoving it upp my behind?.
Thanks. What he is saying is that the Buddhistic notion of Karma is void if I understand it correctly? According to this model of explanation bad karma fruitions does not have to depend on previous bad karma and vice versa?
That does contradict the Buddhistic view of Karma no?
Now I understand what you ment by "Sex". It is not only that you avoid pondering karma results but also you do not view the body as dependent on previous karmic action. Am I correct?
Have you realized non-self?
Thanks very interesting. I begin to see your resoning now. To tell you the truth this explanation occurred to me the one of the first times I read the dependent origination. That it does not have to span three life times.
Thank you for your time. I need to think about this for a while.
/Victor
PS
I really do not have Yacht but if you can convince me there really is only this life to consider I am bl**dy going to get me one. And have a barbacue at Sea.
Just kidding. :-)
DS
There is no frustration over DD.
To tell you the truth I am more frustrated trying to encompass your standpoint on karma and the DO. :winkc:. It kind of really topples the box for me.
Well what can I say. You Zen guys are all the same.:)
/Victor
Thank you
How does Volitional formations "transform" into consciousness?
/Victor
I like the vulture imagery. Harbingers of death. It's what the practice is ultimately all about, after all.
It's true that practice and insight are the only things which really matter, but when people are making dogmatic statements about what this or that sutra implies for a cosmological question like rebirth, throwing out alternative translations shows just how muddy the philological waters are, and hopefully brings people down from their high horses.
Hi Matt.
I assure you I was not out to joust or banter. I hold Buddhism and fellow Buddhists in to high regard. I did not banter with DD did I?
I am truly interested in making sense of the notion of non-rebirth. But in my mind when I tought about it before posting here it entailed Changing the DO and the Karma and the notion of Nibbana (as I am accustommed to). But I could not figure out exactly how. That is what I am trying to find out here.
The view that it is not logical nor rational to claim nonrebirth is not my idea. It is the foundations of science that refutes such claims. Of course if you are able to show me how science is wrong on that account I will gladly consider such thesis in the future.
Those reasons are exactly two of the reasons that makes me post here. I do not think I fear death but I am considering it in this process. Also I am trying to confront my frustration over this claim and the way it attacks my buddhist conviction. Where do you practice not falling into the water? Where else but at the brink of the river?
/Victor
Well he did write the book Confession of a BuddhistAtheist so I guess he at least calls himself one
/Victor
Thanks again. I will look into it.
/Victor
I apologize if I missed the links to these essays while skimming this thread:
Practical Dependent Origination
Karma
Karma and Growth
Karma Doesn't Explain Anything
In addition, this series of podcasts titled "Ideology and Wisdom" does not directly address your doctrinal questions, but it point to a way to honor the core intent of the teachings without getting hung up on such questions. Along the same lines, this essay on how Buddhist practice ends attachment to views is very insightful.
You are completely correct. One cannot prove a negative. By the same token, the onus of demonstration is on the person making positive claims.
If you're in a hurry to get where the practice is taking you, fall right in! It won't stop you from practicing. I have done approximately 4000 hours of meditation over the last 9 years. When I started, I was a virulent atheist. Now, roughly speaking I am a radical agnostic. Despite these doctrinal positions, I'm about as committed to Buddhist practice as it is possible for a layperson to be. It is my alpha and omega. (Hmm, there is work to be done, there.)
Could you give me a real world example? I think I can get my mind around all he other steps/transitions but this one boggles me.
Good
My standpoint on kamma is "don't worry about it". Having said that, the article I directed you to is a better explanation than thinking kammic ramification is something "you receive" which helps you to be born or reborn and kamma is cause and effect.
Which standpoint on DO can you digest? The version which says DO talks about kamma and rebirth?
Suffering is not only death, "serious trouble" you face in your life like losing a loved one, getting cancer or falling down and breaking your leg. Suffering can be even more subtle than that. Sadness, anxieties, frustrations, anger, greed, lust, jealousy, desires, constant seeking of sensory pleasures, agitation etc. I am sure you go through all this day in and day out. All this is suffering caused due to craving and clinging caused by the self identification.
The "western life" as you put it with the Yacht and the barbaque maybe fun and happy although it can be temporary. But the Buddha said there is something which is supreme to these sensory pleasures. A supreme happiness which surpasses all these temporary happiness you get through sensory indulgences.
You can reflect on this reality bit by bit. I can very well say that if you do not identify with the inherent suffering in life and seek supreme satisfaction of Nibbana then there is no need for practice. But then I would be doing you wrong.
Showing what up your whatever?
Yes I avoid pondering over kamma and results because it is not skillful to speculate over it. When did it begin and how it ends... who knows these things? The Buddha didn't, as far as I know, teach these things. He only taught what is relevant to the cessation of suffeirng. I already quoted to you that according to the Buddha, it is unskillful to ponder over it and it is NOT RELEVANT to the cessation of suffeirng and the attainment of Nibbana. Kamma is merely a moral teaching in Buddhist context. It is not a system of cause of and effect or cosmic punishment.
Conceptually maybe but not through direct meditative experience. There is a big difference between "general understanding" and "direct insight". I am still an insignificant Buddhist practitioner struggling to sit still for 10 minutes.
Yea I guess you should. I would recommend you texts from Bhikku Buddhadasa. You can cross reference his stuff with the suttas.
You say this:
"Yes I avoid pondering over kamma and results because it is not skillful to speculate over it"
and this:
"Kamma is a mere moral teaching. Be a good person whether there is rebirth or not, whether there is kamma or not."
The second quote clearly highlights the skillful nature of pondering kamma. I agree with you that speculation over the results of specific actions is futile, but the contemplation of karma is an excellent guide to integrating moral conduct into our lives over time.
Which is why it is a moral teaching
I agree that it is a moral teaching
This would be my lousy attempt in giving you a real world example:
Due to ignorance you have a perception that "a Yacht is going to be fun if there is no rebirth".
I was more or less trying to say that people would find a good and thorough commentary on the 12 links useful for this discussion. Thats all.
I like Deshung Rinpoches discussion of the topic in The Three Levels of Spiritual Perception. HHDL's is brief but solid in The Middle Way.
Bhikku Bhodi has a very thorough commentary of the DO as well. It has kamma and rebirth in it. And consciousness is landing on the mother's womb and the like
I haven't seen the texts you are referring to but would definitely recommend Bhikku Buddhadasa's text which FB quoted to anyone.
The 12 links are a very instructive set of teachings in general.
Culavedalla Sutta
We are going to differ greatly on our opinions of which commentaries we find useful or like and thats totally ok.
Do not fret I will try to cultivate the mind on cessation of Dukkha. I was going that way anyway but that is going to take some time. But you said:
As you say attaining jhana is not the only base of developing different mental abilities. Sometimes jhana is not even required. Most times people are afraid to even try a thing to see if it works just of fear of failing. Or they dismiss it argueing it simply can not work!!!
I have tried a whole lot of strange things in my life and never believed in anything I could not do myself.
Recollection of past lifes is not impossible.
And if you are going to argue that those recollections are more illusory or more false than any other thing experienced in real life then is not that mere scepticism?
But that goes for everything and not only recollection of past lives. The only way to percieve anything is through the mind and its cognitive web. That is the very problem that buddhism adresses. No?
Cheers
Victor
As I see it if there is a concept of a thing in the mind then by default it will fall into one of three categories. Either the person will have a view that "this thing is false/wrong" or that "this thing is true/is right" or that "I have formed no opinion on this thing".
If a person rejects the idea of rebirth because it seems to serve no useful purpose that I can understand.
And in all fairness I was asking the question of people who reject rebirth entirely. Lucky for me so many others answered as well.:)
Thank you for the summation.
Agnosticism I like. That is the open mind. I did "sit" more earlier. But now I seem to always be short of time since I became a father 3 years ago.:).
I have some knee problems and prefer standing meditation or mindfulnes during activity. But lately I have discovered I can sit on a really high cushion.
Or this. :hair:
Or like here at 2.5 minute long You Tube.
Also, your view presented is there is something intrinsically wrong & harmful with the yacht and the barbeque because having these things will cause you suffering in the next life. But if there was no next life, you would go for these things now.
When the Buddha taught about generosity for example, he advised us it accrues at least five benefits in the here & now, namely, happiness, strength, beauty, long life and self-respect.
For example, which provides more happiness?. Buying a yacht or helping starving dying children in Africa or elsewhere?
LOL