Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
question regarding enlightment
Hey all!
If one is enlightend i suppose that he enjoys the way he finds ''himself'' in. Doesnt this mean that there is a craving for the joy of enlightment that of course will be there forever. when there is that desire (which seems the root of suffering) how can enlightment be without suffering if there is no way escaping from the joy of enlightment that always is and will be?
greets
If one is enlightend i suppose that he enjoys the way he finds ''himself'' in. Doesnt this mean that there is a craving for the joy of enlightment that of course will be there forever. when there is that desire (which seems the root of suffering) how can enlightment be without suffering if there is no way escaping from the joy of enlightment that always is and will be?
greets
0
Comments
There is no craving if its already and always there
Sorry.
Differentiating enlightenment and suffering is like making a distinction between blue sky and sky that's blue.
compared to the state of everyone else, an enlighten being has no anger, no sadness, no cravings, no anxiety, no uneaseaness, nothing blocking the true self from shining and radiating with love, happiness and joy... it is a state where bliss is constant.
For the enlighten being, joy cannot be an impediment or something to be attached to since he is enlighten. The joy is not something to look forward to and crave either, it's just happen that (luckily for us
I wouldn't be surprised if Ajahn Chah agreed.
but whatever problematic situation doesn't cause any pain, frustrations, anguish, etc... for you.
see my quote
"Nirvana is a condition not in any way comparable to any other. It is unlike any worldly condition. In fact, it is the very negation of the worldly condition. Given all the characteristics of the worldly condition, of phenomenal existence, the result of completely canceling out all those characteristics is Nirvana. That is to say, Nirvana is that which is in every respect precisely the opposite of the worldly condition.
Nirvana neither creates nor is created, being the cessation of all creating. Speaking in terms of benefits, Nirvana is complete freedom from hellfire, scourging, torture, bondage, subjection and thralldom, because the attainment of Nirvana presupposes the complete elimination of the defilements, which are the cause of all unsatisfactory mental states.
Nirvana lies beyond the limitations of space and time. It is unique, unlike anything in the world. Rather it is the extinction of the worldly condition. Speaking metaphorically, the Buddha called it the realm where all conditional things cease to be (Sankhara - samatho). Hence it is the condition of freedom, of freedom from fetters. It is the end of torment and buffeting, stabbing and chafing, from any source whatsoever. This is the nature of the Supramundane, the ultimate. It is the Buddhist goal and destination. It is the final fruit of Buddhist practice "
source - http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa12.htm
.
It would be more effective and specific if we used the Buddhist terminology in order to describe what it is we are talking about.
"Enlightenment" could mean a lot of different things but the terms Buddhahood, arhat, nirvana etc. have specific meanings.
I think the same applies to the terms "joy" and "bliss".
"Enlightenment" for me comes nowhere near accurately describing things like arhatship or buddhahood.
Its a catchall phrase for the modern new age fad movement.
1) A state of seeing the world as it is (and nothing really changes you just regard it differntly, more close to thinking about it differently).
2) A state where there is no suffering
Now a state without suffering would imply that opposite feelings are omnipresent (peace bliss joy or any other are frequenlty named in describing theis state). i feel that this is some sort of utopian image and start to feel that this is just a state that is very much desired and wanted within buddhistic like thoughts. in fact maybe a state that is created (by that i mean made up) with buddhistic thinking. For example it says that there is pain (when a car hits you) but you perceive the event differently (no sadness for example loss of a limb or any type of suffering that could be generated by human interactive thinking). In this case i wouldnt say that state 1 is a ''state'' but more a way of reflecting reality and experience. and that state 2 is just phony
It just happen to be your nature, your true self when you remove all of the junk covering it (literally remove the junk, not philosophically, not metaphorically etc...)
it's whats left once you remove the impurity.
When i find true nature, ''bliss and no suffering''. ''bliss and no suffering'' both dont exist. As long as i will associate nirvana with no suffering and bliss, i am just trying to picture it this way and therefore it is totally not this way.
When i experience nirvana and describe it with bliss the whole truth of nirvana is broken down. simply describy nirvana this way or even thinking about it, trying to feel or imagine it leads to a point where nirvana could never be experienced. therefore nirvana is not bliss but simply, ordinairily being. As soon as you try to change the way of thinking of nirvana as ordinairy, it wont be the true nirvana.
enlightenment is permanent, it's not difficult to maintain or whatever.
Just you, free from all defilement, enjoying your life.
haha i actually shouldnt
An enlightened being has joy, bliss, contentment, peace, joviality, serenity, creativity, humor, etc. and does so without craving or attachment.
Attachment is not the only reason for wanting a sensation or a thing.
Desire can be skillful or unskillful. This desire to awaken is based on Right View of the Four Noble Truths... and so is skillful.
Could you tell us your source for this?
what would be the other reasons for wanting a sensation in your opinion?
Certainly not personal experience.
And no particular source for the statement, but many commentaries, prayers, and suttras refer to enlightened minds and mention these particular mental factors.
I do not endeavor to relate the truth with where I may have learned and affirmed it, rather I prefer to consider the truth relative to how I see it in life.
If it is confirmation you would like, then just consider it my opinion. If you are interested in further discourse on mental factors, there is one source I would suggest; "The mind and it's functions" by Geshe Rabten.
In my opinion, an enlightened mind would react and respond to causes and conditions. If a Buddha encountered beings that desired to be free of suffering, the feeling of compassion would arise. If this Buddha then taught the path of cessation of suffering and these beings did experience cessation, then the Buddha would rejoice.
I think that I can and do desire certain sensations for reasons other than craving and attachment (although I certainly have plenty of those).
For example, I am looking forward to seeing loved ones this holiday season.
Yes, I have attachment to them, but there is also a feeling of comfort, and joy that I think is not attachment. We will visit, recall past experiences, we will laugh and maybe cry together. There is a difference between love and attachment and although they get tangled up, they are not the same.
I am not particularly attached to success or accomplishment, but at this moment, I have work to do and I am looking forward to the feeling of accomplishment when my work is done.
Sensations of many kinds may be desired and without craving or attachment, but of course for us, the craving and attachment will be lurking. But I think I do desire the sensation of warmth, happiness, joy, contentment all for the sake of the experience alone and would do so even if the current attachment was not present.
I attended a retreat lead by the Ven. Robina Courtin who spoke at length about how we do experience attachment and other emotions at the same time, and that we need to continue the examination in order to separate the attachment from our feelings.
His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, says that all sentient beings desire happiness. I think that enlightened beings are indeed sentient and do desire happiness, but not out of attachment or craving, they desire happiness for the sake of happiness.
nothing wrong with that of course, but what prevent you from feeling comfort and joy right now? How can you not call this craving? (not trying to point fingers, just asking
feeling of accomplishment is pretty similar to the feeling of satisfying an urge i believe wouldn't you say so?
What prevent you from feeling perfectly at peace right now?
sounds interesting, i would read it if you started a thread about what you have learned there
Here's what Ajahn Sumedho has to say about it:
did you posted this because you believed it was somehow opposed to what you quoted from me?
thanks you regardless.
i believe this quote (posted by dazzle) is far more precise and appropriate for this thread
Nirvana neither creates nor is created, being the cessation of all creating. Speaking in terms of benefits, Nirvana is complete freedom from hellfire, scourging, torture, bondage, subjection and thralldom, because the attainment of Nirvana presupposes the complete elimination of the defilements, which are the cause of all unsatisfactory mental states.
I am not perfectly at peace, because I am deluded and this has brought me to this existence in samsara. And while I do feel comfort and joy, much is diminished due to the deluded suffering of samsara.
The experiences, situations and things that I want are both, things that I crave and am attached to, but also just experiences, situations and things that have my interest.
I think that we do crave the things we want, maybe constantly, but I hope that craving and attachment are not all that we do.
When we satisfy an urge there is but a brief moment of relief, barely even satisfaction. When we accomplish something we can enjoy it for some time to come. Knowing that we did the right thing, or that we helped someone, or even just stood up to our responsibilities, this is meaningful and worthwhile.
I think we walk a narrow path, trying to love wholeheartedly, and have compassion (even when it seems hardest), but at the same time not let ourselves become too attached.
Luang Por was pretty clear if you choose to read what he said.
The question he responded to was If consciousness and the khandhas** cease in a Tathagata, in a Buddha, in someone who becomes enlightened, who exists, what kind of existence is there left? Is there anything, is there nothing, or what?
And his answer was kind, and honest, I believe.
+ You're welcome. _/\_
Then it's not nirvana.
Its the perfect state of being that surpass all description.
How's that for a description?