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In all seriousness, the papers seem to conclude that some insects have a higher probability of being able to feel pain, but we don't have a way of knowing for sure.
Come to think about it, some people can staad more pain than others. Anyway, Thanks for a Science lesson! That's enlightening.
I think there is a common karmic tendancy of how to conceptualize pain. I guess I am convinced that a fly is not sentient. But it is still interconnected and I think you can cultivate bodhicitta by visualizing a fly as a buddha. Or whatever works for you. I eventually forgave the guy who took my girl and I wish him well. Buddha said to cultivate dana (sic) to give him all of your possessions real and imagined. At the same time I think it takes a lot of nerve to offer a fly to the buddha.
We have collective karma and share some of the same dream. Like Chuang tzu dreamed he was a butterful dreaming he was Chuang tzu
We know for sure that we are sentient being but the same cannot be said for a fly or a mosquito. Maybe it is not important if a fly is one, more important as you sayis it helps cultivate bodhicitta - Thanks! And about your girl, if she is willing to be taken away, well- you are not losing anything, I think. You probably have a lot of boddhichitta to be given away!
For me, I haven't come to understanding the Vinaya as yet. Perhaps, it's not so important for laypeople? Thankks for adding to link though. May want to check it out .
Some people try not to kill flies, mosquitoes, and other disease bearing vermin out of compassion for these pests and, perhaps, to earn "good" karma. Other people may kill these pests with the "intent" of preventing mankind from serious diseases and death. These peoples' compassion is directed more towards people rather than the pests that spread diseases - what kind of karma do they get for this? Also, bear in mind that the situation in, for example, the US or UK with regard to serious diseases spread by pests may be quite different from other countries. So, the whole matter is quite complex; there cannot be a straight-forward answer. The Buddha's teaching is more about mental dis-ease. He did not provide a remedy for the control of all the serious physical diseases that affect the world. Perhaps, we should apply the "Middle Way" and and ascertain for ourselves what is skillful and what is not.
My teacher, a Tibetan and a monk since the age of 12 in the Dalai Lama's monastery says this: If you kill a mosquito/fly/etc, you will have 500 rebirths as that kind of animal. I'm not sure I can accept this concept. But if it's true, then I will surely spend at least a few millenia living lives in various insect forms.
"When considering the role of the fly, probably the most common word that we find to describe them would understandably be "pest" -- and possibly, "pestilence" -- but, the fly maggot is especially essential to break down and redistribute organic matter. The waste products of maggots provide nutrients for molds, fungi, and plants. The true significance or importance of flies, for that reason, lies beyond the negative impact of the Medfly, housefly, or mosquito, but "rather in the large numbers of unfamiliar species that are an essential element in the food chains upon which all life depends," as noted by entomologist, Harold Oldroyd. Flies should be considered part of a much greater web or food chain, that supports life far beyond their pestilent existence. In any ecosystem, as intricate as its food web is, it appears that "everything is connected to everything else." Flies provide a essential food source for many other species of animals. Think of flies as forming essential links in a food chain or the chain of life."
Yes, I have, I do and will continue to do so. They spread disease, eat by vomiting on food then sucking it up and are basically pestilential. I realise this may horrify many, but I do not consider either mosquitoes or flies to be sentient. Therefore, I have no qualms in dispatching something the instinct of which is to live as it does, but which carries disease and is frankly, purely harmful in its actions.
discrimination. Flies catch disease mostly from people leaving their rubbish out and not collecting their doggie doos. Now who has a choice?
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
Just an FYI on the whole "do insects feel pain" thing. Pain is *perceived* in the brain. If I cut your finger off, your brain knows that the source of the pain is in your now missing finger, but the actual pain itself is in your brain. To say an ant only feels pain locally if we cut its leg off is ridiculous if you think about it. The ant doesn't have a brain in its leg, so how could it only experience pain in the leg? And if the ant (or any other invertebrate) didn't have a nervous system (not a central nervous system, but a nervous system), it wouldn't be able to move or more importantly to react to its environment. An ant will no more step on a hot stove burner than you or I would, and if it does, sensory nerves in its toes (do ants have toes?) will send the "HOT" signal to its brain and cause it to reflexively move the other way. I don't see how that's any different from your or I, just because the signal doesn't run up through a bony spine.
Mountains, none of that proves that ants feel pain though. You can't perceive pain if you can't feel it. Some people are born without the ability to feel pain in certain parts of the body. I remember watching something on TV (how authoritative is that?) about a girl who'd always try to scratch and poke her eyes. It turned out that she didn't have the ability to feel pain there, so she had to wear glasses to prevent herself from harming her eyes.
The ant example is interesting. Ants will pretty much ignore humans, you can put your finger in the middle of the trail of ants, and they'll just walk around it (when they figure out how). However, if you slightly poke one, they all start running around in panic. So the ant sends out some sort of distress signal. That doesn't mean it felt pain, but it does show that they know something isn't right.
Other insects on the other hand are, as I mentioned earlier, will carry on about their business even if they are cut in half as if nothing had happened.
Intent is the clincher. Do we kill flies just because they annoy us? Do we try to make them go somewhere else? Not to kill the fly isn't so much that it has some great value alive as opposed to dead, but that it is unskillful karma; you won't learn to have compassion for all life if you keep re-planting the seeds of death and destruction within your mind. Abstaining from killing can stop these trends, and showing compassion toward life can lessen the feeling of separation you have from "other" life forms.
Personally no, I would 'shoe' them away maybe if one was on my arm as they like to lay lava on skin and are not all that clean. They are after all a living being.
I did have a huge ant problem in my room, I left them to it, they had this routine and trail set up and I proceeded to make sure I left nothing sugary around and they soon left.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
No, flies are very important creatures.
Tell me how or why?
discrimination. Flies catch disease mostly from people leaving their rubbish out and not collecting their doggie doos. Now who has a choice?
Ridiculous. Flies are naturally attracted to filth, foul-smelling stenches and rotting matter. The fact they carry disease, is enough for me to consider them pests. They are not proven to be sentient, I do not consider them sentient and nobody has come up with an inarguable and logical statement proving they are sentient. Therefore, they are dangerous, and as such, I have no qualms preventing them form carrying disease any firther.
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
A Jihadist is a sentient being. people in the World Trade Centre were sentient beings. It's not the same thing at all. This is a strawman argument. The comparison is an inaccurate one at best, and a highly insulting one at worst.
Some people try not to kill flies, mosquitoes, and other disease bearing vermin out of compassion for these pests and, perhaps, to earn "good" karma. Other people may kill these pests with the "intent" of preventing mankind from serious diseases and death. These peoples' compassion is directed more towards people rather than the pests that spread diseases - what kind of karma do they get for this? Also, bear in mind that the situation in, for example, the US or UK with regard to serious diseases spread by pests may be quite different from other countries. So, the whole matter is quite complex; there cannot be a straight-forward answer. The Buddha's teaching is more about mental dis-ease. He did not provide a remedy for the control of all the serious physical diseases that affect the world. Perhaps, we should apply the "Middle Way" and and ascertain for ourselves what is skillful and what is not.
Applying the middle way like you suggest seems like a good idea.
My teacher, a Tibetan and a monk since the age of 12 in the Dalai Lama's monastery says this: If you kill a mosquito/fly/etc, you will have 500 rebirths as that kind of animal. I'm not sure I can accept this concept. But if it's true, then I will surely spend at least a few millenia living lives in various insect forms.
I am not sure too if I can accept too. why 500 and not more or less?
"When considering the role of the fly, probably the most common word that we find to describe them would understandably be "pest" -- and possibly, "pestilence" -- but, the fly maggot is especially essential to break down and redistribute organic matter. The waste products of maggots provide nutrients for molds, fungi, and plants. The true significance or importance of flies, for that reason, lies beyond the negative impact of the Medfly, housefly, or mosquito, but "rather in the large numbers of unfamiliar species that are an essential element in the food chains upon which all life depends," as noted by entomologist, Harold Oldroyd. Flies should be considered part of a much greater web or food chain, that supports life far beyond their pestilent existence. In any ecosystem, as intricate as its food web is, it appears that "everything is connected to everything else." Flies provide a essential food source for many other species of animals. Think of flies as forming essential links in a food chain or the chain of life."
No, flies are very important creatures.
I wonder if all these has to do with dependent of origination or whatever you call it.
Yes, I have, I do and will continue to do so. They spread disease, eat by vomiting on food then sucking it up and are basically pestilential. I realise this may horrify many, but I do not consider either mosquitoes or flies to be sentient. Therefore, I have no qualms in dispatching something the instinct of which is to live as it does, but which carries disease and is frankly, purely harmful in its actions.
discrimination. Flies catch disease mostly from people leaving their rubbish out and not collecting their doggie doos. Now who has a choice?
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
If to kill a fly means to kill and die for religion, then it could be the Buddhist Jihad.
Just an FYI on the whole "do insects feel pain" thing. Pain is *perceived* in the brain. If I cut your finger off, your brain knows that the source of the pain is in your now missing finger, but the actual pain itself is in your brain. To say an ant only feels pain locally if we cut its leg off is ridiculous if you think about it. The ant doesn't have a brain in its leg, so how could it only experience pain in the leg? And if the ant (or any other invertebrate) didn't have a nervous system (not a central nervous system, but a nervous system), it wouldn't be able to move or more importantly to react to its environment. An ant will no more step on a hot stove burner than you or I would, and if it does, sensory nerves in its toes (do ants have toes?) will send the "HOT" signal to its brain and cause it to reflexively move the other way. I don't see how that's any different from your or I, just because the signal doesn't run up through a bony spine.
I suppose a brain must have a pain centre. Just like when the sight centre is damaged during an accident, a person becomes sightless. And I really don't know if an ant has a brain and if it matters.
Mountains, none of that proves that ants feel pain though. You can't perceive pain if you can't feel it. Some people are born without the ability to feel pain in certain parts of the body. I remember watching something on TV (how authoritative is that?) about a girl who'd always try to scratch and poke her eyes. It turned out that she didn't have the ability to feel pain there, so she had to wear glasses to prevent herself from harming her eyes.
The ant example is interesting. Ants will pretty much ignore humans, you can put your finger in the middle of the trail of ants, and they'll just walk around it (when they figure out how). However, if you slightly poke one, they all start running around in panic. So the ant sends out some sort of distress signal. That doesn't mean it felt pain, but it does show that they know something isn't right.
Other insects on the other hand are, as I mentioned earlier, will carry on about their business even if they are cut in half as if nothing had happened.
Intent is the clincher. Do we kill flies just because they annoy us? Do we try to make them go somewhere else? Not to kill the fly isn't so much that it has some great value alive as opposed to dead, but that it is unskillful karma; you won't learn to have compassion for all life if you keep re-planting the seeds of death and destruction within your mind. Abstaining from killing can stop these trends, and showing compassion toward life can lessen the feeling of separation you have from "other" life forms.
Maybe the fly just function to help us in our training towards enlightenment.
Personally no, I would 'shoe' them away maybe if one was on my arm as they like to lay lava on skin and are not all that clean. They are after all a living being.
I did have a huge ant problem in my room, I left them to it, they had this routine and trail set up and I proceeded to make sure I left nothing sugary around and they soon left.
All these could proved to be a lot of effort to many people. It would be easier to just swat the fly!
discrimination. Flies catch disease mostly from people leaving their rubbish out and not collecting their doggie doos. Now who has a choice?
Ridiculous. Flies are naturally attracted to filth, foul-smelling stenches and rotting matter. The fact they carry disease, is enough for me to consider them pests. They are not proven to be sentient, I do not consider them sentient and nobody has come up with an inarguable and logical statement proving they are sentient. Therefore, they are dangerous, and as such, I have no qualms preventing them form carrying disease any firther.
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
A Jihadist is a sentient being. people in the World Trade Centre were sentient beings. It's not the same thing at all. This is a strawman argument. The comparison is an inaccurate one at best, and a highly insulting one at worst.
Some people are attracted to filth too and we should swat them as well! If they kill for religion especially.
I think a lot of the opinions are a amalgamation of scientific materialism and buddhism. That said, every situation is workable. Sometimes you have to kill flies. Sometimes you can let them free. No shame or blame. Thats useless. You own your own karma and not all westerners can relate to the Tibetans (just one example)... To a Tibetan a fly loses just as much as you do when they die. Everything. It could be interesting to do tonglen or karuna practice for a fly. Or mudita. The joy of a fly!
I thought I did in the post? Of course you are free to disagree.
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
A Jihadist is a sentient being. people in the World Trade Centre were sentient beings. It's not the same thing at all. This is a strawman argument. The comparison is an inaccurate one at best, and a highly insulting one at worst.
I think a lot of the opinions are a amalgamation of scientific materialism and buddhism. That said, every situation is workable. Sometimes you have to kill flies. Sometimes you can let them free. No shame or blame. Thats useless. You own your own karma and not all westerners can relate to the Tibetans (just one example)... To a Tibetan a fly loses just as much as you do when they die. Everything. It could be interesting to do tonglen or karuna practice for a fly. Or mudita. The joy of a fly!
I like the idea of sometimes you can do this and sometimes, not.
I thought I did in the post? Of course you are free to disagree.
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
A Jihadist is a sentient being. people in the World Trade Centre were sentient beings. It's not the same thing at all. This is a strawman argument. The comparison is an inaccurate one at best, and a highly insulting one at worst.
I was thinking about the karmic results of ignorance in light of not knowing if flies are sentient. Of Om Ma Ni Pad Me Hum.... The Me is persistance paramita. It is believed to purify ignorance.
So the ignorance is not the problem. The problem is not questioning whether a fly is sentient or not. Hum is the antidote to anger, for flies killed out of anger. It symbolize characteristics? of compassion. Ahimsa? Om is the antidote to pride. Generosity or yielding. Yielding is wisdom. It is like seeing that you are confused and letting it be.
Of course. According to the scriptures, "Right Action" is to try and emulate the behavior of the Buddha. The question to ask now is: "What is the behavior of the Buddha?"
The Noble is not one who injures living beings. The Noble is one who never injures living beings. Dhammapada 270
What, householder friends, is the Dhamma explanation befitting to oneself? Here, householder friends, a Noble Disciple reflects thus: I am one who wishes to live, who does not wish to die; I desire happiness & do not like any suffering. If someone were to take my life, it would neither be pleasing nor agreeable to me. If I kill whatever another being: One who also wishes to live, who also does not wish to die, who also desires happiness & who also dislike suffering, that would neither be pleasant nor acceptable to that other being either... What is displeasing and disagreeable to me, is also displeasing and disagreeable to any other being too. How can I inflict upon another being what is displeasing and disagreeable to myself? Having reflected repeatedly thus, then gradually: 1: He/she will carefully avoid all destruction of any life-form whatsoever... 2: He/she will persuade others also to abstain from all destruction of any life... 3: He/she will speak praising harmlessness and avoidance of all & any killing... In exactly this way is this good bodily behaviour purified in three respects!!!
Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:353] section 55: Sotāpattisamyutta. Thread 7: To the people at the Bamboo gate...
My teacher, a Tibetan and a monk since the age of 12 in the Dalai Lama's monastery says this: If you kill a mosquito/fly/etc, you will have 500 rebirths as that kind of animal. I'm not sure I can accept this concept. But if it's true, then I will surely spend at least a few millenia living lives in various insect forms.
Karma must work in mysterious ways then. So... the punishment is worse than the crime? Oookay then.
Anyways, I stick with my original thoughts on this.
Flies are disease carrying pests that could make you sick or anyone else sick.
Now, of course killing things will never be truly good, but that isn't to say that no good can come from it at all.
Kill a man to save a man is better than killing a man out of pure anger. Killing a fly to save you or your family from getting sick is better than just letting them get sick. The fly will die soon anyways, your family won't.
I was thinking about the karmic results of ignorance in light of not knowing if flies are sentient. Of Om Ma Ni Pad Me Hum.... The Me is persistance paramita. It is believed to purify ignorance.
So the ignorance is not the problem. The problem is not questioning whether a fly is sentient or not. Hum is the antidote to anger, for flies killed out of anger. It symbolize characteristics? of compassion. Ahimsa? Om is the antidote to pride. Generosity or yielding. Yielding is wisdom. It is like seeing that you are confused and letting it be.
I am really confused about all this especially aboud Om Ma Ni PadMe Hum. I don't really understand what it is for. And I am also not sure if seeing that you are confused and letting it be is wise.
According to the scriptures, "Right Action" is to try and emulate the behavior of the Buddha. The question to ask now is: "What is the behavior of the Buddha?"
Some people I know always ask why Buddha could leave the palace and his wife and child too. I am not sure if this is something that people can emulate.
If you can conceptualize your own death - you are already dead.....
If you can conceptualize the fly dead even before the swat - it is already dead...
How may that which is dead kill that which is dead?
Are we really concerned about the enlightenment of the fly?
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
when i think about killing a fly or spider or whatever in my home, i have to consider WHY i want to kill it. i went through a brief stint where i resolved to not kill any spiders, just let them be. after all, they catch other bugs, don't they? then, one day, my apartment was taken over by baby spiders and i broke down and got out the vacuum in terror. i'm talking EVERYWHERE. i don't know how many spiders come from one egg sack, but man, it was terrifying. so now, i just catch them in some tupperwear and throw them outside. i try to do the same with other bugs, flies and the like, because i mean... it's not their fault that i happen to think they're gross and annoying. so what if they land on poo and then possibly land on you. i honestly believe that half the people i shake hands with probably don't wash their hands either. best practice is to avoid touching your face if you haven't washed your hands. at least you know a fly is dirty. i don't even want to think about all of the unknowns we encounter in the day to day.
and on a random side note, i watched a documentary once that discussed maggot therapy. apparently, having flies lay their eggs in your open wounds is extremely beneficial and promotes healing. who knew?
That's a good practice in loving-kindness toward insects there, just move them so there's no disturbance. Almost as good as not being disturbed by them in the first place.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Zombiegirl, Spiders have proven beneficial records in catching pests...like flies... and dispatching them on our behalf.... Flies are disease-ridden and as such, fair game, in my opinion. I kill a fly and see the eggs it is carrying spread and I clean them up and thank my lucky stars I prevented them from hatching. I do. Flies are bred specifically for surgical use, and actually laboratory hatched, so in fact, they are 'clean' to begin with. Good point about the hand-washing though. I'm a bit manic about it. Working in the food industry teaches us much about harmful bacteria and the spread of illnesses that can cause food poisoning, to different degrees. It will not surprise anyone that all food establishments have many duties of care to their clients, which include the prevention and elimination of disease-carrying pests, like cockroaches and - oh look - ! Flies!! The food industry makes it a point of health and hygiene to have mechanisms in place that actually attract and kill flies. And I wash my hands at least 30 times a day. Food prep tells you it's vital.
According to the scriptures, "Right Action" is to try and emulate the behavior of the Buddha. The question to ask now is: "What is the behavior of the Buddha?"
Some people I know always ask why Buddha could leave the palace and his wife and child too. I am not sure if this is something that people can emulate.
There is a different set of recommendations for laypeople and monks. Only those who wish to be monks are advised to leave for the solitary life. However, everyone, both monks and lay people, are advised to not kill any living beings. This is why not killing is the first precept and it is also the most important one, for both monks and laypeople.
If we were to say that killing a fly or mosquito is ok based on the potential harm that they can cause through carrying disease, then would it would it be reasonable for an alien species to kill humanity based on their observations that we have caused entire species to go extinct, and may be causing serious harm to our environment? I would say yes, and I can't see a logical reason to allow for a double standard. The mosquito takes blood to give birth to it's young, to allow for the continuation of life. The fly eats so it can give birth to young, and continue the flow of life. A tiger kills to accomplish the same thing, should the tiger then be slaughtered in order to prevent their killing? Each animal, including the lowly insects plays a role in our environment. Humans spread disease and destroy as well.
I think that the argument mentioned before stating that we should no consider an insect sentient, because it has not be proven thus, is simply a fallacy of ignorance. No one has proven that God exists, should I then believe it doesn't? No one has proven that God does not exist, should I then believe it does? You can not make a logically sound argument based on ignorance alone.
Comments
For me, I haven't come to understanding the Vinaya as yet. Perhaps, it's not so important for laypeople? Thankks for adding to link though. May want to check it out .
If you kill a mosquito/fly/etc, you will have 500 rebirths as that kind of animal.
I'm not sure I can accept this concept. But if it's true, then I will surely spend at least a few millenia living lives in various insect forms.
This similar to Jihadist's logic when attacking the world trade centre I am afraid.
The ant example is interesting. Ants will pretty much ignore humans, you can put your finger in the middle of the trail of ants, and they'll just walk around it (when they figure out how). However, if you slightly poke one, they all start running around in panic. So the ant sends out some sort of distress signal. That doesn't mean it felt pain, but it does show that they know something isn't right.
Other insects on the other hand are, as I mentioned earlier, will carry on about their business even if they are cut in half as if nothing had happened.
I did have a huge ant problem in my room, I left them to it, they had this routine and trail set up and I proceeded to make sure I left nothing sugary around and they soon left.
The fact they carry disease, is enough for me to consider them pests. They are not proven to be sentient, I do not consider them sentient and nobody has come up with an inarguable and logical statement proving they are sentient.
Therefore, they are dangerous, and as such, I have no qualms preventing them form carrying disease any firther. A Jihadist is a sentient being.
people in the World Trade Centre were sentient beings.
It's not the same thing at all.
This is a strawman argument.
The comparison is an inaccurate one at best, and a highly insulting one at worst.
Cheers, WK
So the ignorance is not the problem. The problem is not questioning whether a fly is sentient or not. Hum is the antidote to anger, for flies killed out of anger. It symbolize characteristics? of compassion. Ahimsa? Om is the antidote to pride. Generosity or yielding. Yielding is wisdom. It is like seeing that you are confused and letting it be.
Seriously, encouraging breaking the first precept...
This is the same attitude of "vegetarians" who will only eat what animals are "not cute".
Compassion for all sentient beings are very far away.
The Noble is not one who injures living beings.
The Noble is one who never injures living beings.
Dhammapada 270
What, householder friends, is the Dhamma explanation befitting to oneself?
Here, householder friends, a Noble Disciple reflects thus: I am one who wishes
to live, who does not wish to die; I desire happiness & do not like any suffering.
If someone were to take my life, it would neither be pleasing nor agreeable to me.
If I kill whatever another being: One who also wishes to live, who also does not
wish to die, who also desires happiness & who also dislike suffering, that would
neither be pleasant nor acceptable to that other being either...
What is displeasing and disagreeable to me, is also displeasing and disagreeable
to any other being too. How can I inflict upon another being what is displeasing
and disagreeable to myself? Having reflected repeatedly thus, then gradually:
1: He/she will carefully avoid all destruction of any life-form whatsoever...
2: He/she will persuade others also to abstain from all destruction of any life...
3: He/she will speak praising harmlessness and avoidance of all & any killing...
In exactly this way is this good bodily behaviour purified in three respects!!!
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. [V:353]
section 55: Sotāpattisamyutta. Thread 7: To the people at the Bamboo gate...
Anyways, I stick with my original thoughts on this.
Flies are disease carrying pests that could make you sick or anyone else sick.
Now, of course killing things will never be truly good, but that isn't to say that no good can come from it at all.
Kill a man to save a man is better than killing a man out of pure anger. Killing a fly to save you or your family from getting sick is better than just letting them get sick. The fly will die soon anyways, your family won't.
In the case of killing a man to save a man, hopefully there are better options.
If you can conceptualize the fly dead even before the swat - it is already dead...
How may that which is dead kill that which is dead?
Are we really concerned about the enlightenment of the fly?
and on a random side note, i watched a documentary once that discussed maggot therapy. apparently, having flies lay their eggs in your open wounds is extremely beneficial and promotes healing. who knew?
Flies are disease-ridden and as such, fair game, in my opinion.
I kill a fly and see the eggs it is carrying spread and I clean them up and thank my lucky stars I prevented them from hatching.
I do.
Flies are bred specifically for surgical use, and actually laboratory hatched, so in fact, they are 'clean' to begin with.
Good point about the hand-washing though.
I'm a bit manic about it.
Working in the food industry teaches us much about harmful bacteria and the spread of illnesses that can cause food poisoning, to different degrees.
It will not surprise anyone that all food establishments have many duties of care to their clients, which include the prevention and elimination of disease-carrying pests, like cockroaches and - oh look - ! Flies!!
The food industry makes it a point of health and hygiene to have mechanisms in place that actually attract and kill flies.
And I wash my hands at least 30 times a day.
Food prep tells you it's vital.
Because with flys its almost the only moment i practice the precept "dont kill".
I think that the argument mentioned before stating that we should no consider an insect sentient, because it has not be proven thus, is simply a fallacy of ignorance. No one has proven that God exists, should I then believe it doesn't? No one has proven that God does not exist, should I then believe it does? You can not make a logically sound argument based on ignorance alone.