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Personally, I don't understand rebirth. If you do, it would great if you help me out. Believing in it would definitely change one's attitude to the fly or any other creature.
If someone creats the fly, we would question his Wisdom.
Hi Footiam:- Mmmmmmmmmmm something has to help decompose rotting waste, I think flies do a good job of it as well as other carnivorous and scavenger species.
Generally:- The problem is not the flies but our opinions/perceptions of the flies. How much of this issue is exaggerated for commercial gain? How easily are people manipulated by seeing animations of flies and cockroaches with flecks falling off them that I suppose is meant to represent germs?
And really, unless you live where there are significant risk of disease due to mozzies, what's a little mozzy bite, even if it swells up a bit? "suck it up princess!" seems appropriate here.
Most of the time we justify what easiest for ourselves, I know I do it. In this case its easier to kill the fly that to catch it after-all.
However, this is going against my own non-judgemental ideal, but I'll post it anyway, but feel free to disregard.
How hard would it be to make a list of "sentient beings" ;or perhaps better, "non-sentient beings?" We could get all the most eminent Buddhist thinkers together and they could make a list. (Rabbis do it) I think if we did this my neighbor would appear on the list as non-sentient and I could get rid of him.
Dispatch is the key, since thought does not belong in this particular discussion. With flies, I first "shoo" and then use a "shoe."
Any one want to start a list? "Things to be Dispatched"
It wasn't killing flies that bothered me, but parasites, say a tape worm or toxacara (the worm that causes blindness in children); or when a plague of locusts devastates farmland and leaves the people starving.
But I have been told that sometimes killing is unavoidable (as in self-defence). It is not that it doesn't generate negative karma, but that there is no point in concerning ourselves with the consequences of unavoidable actions. We don't set out to kill, we don't kill with any relish, there are just some times we have to.
I can avoid killing houseflies by not leaving food around that they are attracted to, and by allowing spiders to live in my house. I can avoid slugs by allowing the hedgehog to live in my garden, and planting marigolds and other anti-slug plants around my cabbages. Very often, if I am careful, I can avoid the necessity of having to kill things by preventing the creature moving in.
Dear Sukhita, Eeeek! To have that resident in your intestine - I think I'll curse the man who create it!
Dear Sndymorn,
I suppose some sentient beings are not so sentient. Perhaps, in the previous life, they must be something slimy and unsentient! But I would only consider making a list of who is sentient and who is not if it can lead to enlightenment!
Dear Ada_B
Some things as you say are unavoidable. Que Sera Sera. If we have to pay our dues, just pay but I do like your ways of avoiding the necessity of having to kill things. Just create an unfavourable environment for them!
May I suggest some of the confusion is because people are answering entirely different questions on the subject? That can make a big difference in how helpful the answer is. It's like if I ask, "What's a tomato taste like?" and being told if it's a fruit or vegetable and the nutritional value. But what does it taste like?
Prohibitions against killing are an important topic, and not a simple one. Here's a sample of individual topics that each require separate answers: .............................. What do the sutras say about not killing and how it fits into the rest of Buddha's teachings, and how do they distinguish between sentient and nonsentient beings, etc.
How have Buddhists, monks and laypeople, translated those teachings into their daily lives, in the past and today?
Is it possible and a correct Buddhist practice to not kill at all, and still live a normal life?
What are my current attitudes and practices when it comes to this subject? ..............................
To answer the original question, yes, I will kill a fly, if I have a reason to kill it. And I eat bread, even though thousands of baby field mice are slaughtered by the harvester to bring the wheat to market, but I use live traps around the house to avoid killing the mice that eat the bread in my kitchen. I dislike killing, so I avoid doing it when possible while knowing life feeds on life, and the Middle way avoids such extremes as twisting a normal life into contortions to avoid killing anything at all, directly or indirectly.
It has nothing to do with karma or some list of does and don'ts in a sutra. There's no list in my mind that says, "These animals are sacred, and the ones on this list are fair game!"
The questions you posed are rather difficult. I like to think of the middle way as avoiding extremes; like you say - we need not twist our normal life just to avoid killing. Personaaly, I think that is practical and wise.
Flies catch disease mostly from people leaving their rubbish out and not collecting their doggie doos. Now who has a choice?
No flies do not "mostly" pass(not catch) disease because of people. They have many sources for their food and many opportunities to collect disease from these sources. Flies are good; they are useful. Many animals feed off them. They help pollinate plants. They amuse my cat. Because they carry disease to me, I will dispatch them when necessary. "First shoo, then shoe" If one must "consider" the act of killing flies, let him be brief. The damn things can be hard to track down.
If a man carries his disease of resolute destructiveness to me , I will attempt to dispatch him. If a country, following such a leader- someone bent on destruction- begins the slaughter of innocent people, I would support this leader's removal by any means including killing. I am not a Buddhist, but I believe, from my readings , one who follows the Buddha's path would necessarily agree with me. To save many , sometimes a few must die. I guess my point in using the word "dispatch" in dealing with flies (oh! there is the topic) is that I believe one needn't "feel" anything in this exercise. So too, a soldier we send to remove a thug needn't feel anything. Society depends on controlling creatures, great and small, for our well -being. Creatures which cannot be controlled peacefully must be dispassionately dispatched. People (certainly not only Buddhist) whom continue to wrestle with this notion , in my opinion, waste their time and energy. I do not equate flies and man. I only say , for the work of removing bad men, I wish our soldiers and police a clear conscious in this endeavor. I know many ex servicemen, and know many suffer for the deeds they performed. I try to acknowledge and thank them frequently. THEY do not discuss this issue in theoretical terms. And, for the work of removing "bad" flies, I wish you success.
Sometimes I will kill biting insects like mosquitoes or their larva in pools of water. I don't like it for the reason that I wasn't mindful enough to foresee the breeding spots. Any killing is done to help prevent the spread of transmitted disease and such. In most cases thankfully, I will just shoo any insects away as opposed to killing them outright.
I suppose then, a murderer or a rapist is just as bad as a leader of a country who is bent on destruction and should be dispatched, that is if the ‘destructiveness’ is directed at you. Would it be okay if you are not the target of destruction.
Dear CoffeeBean,
That will save the insects from doing the killing of human beings.
Hi Footiam, I am not sure what you mean. I do not equate Charles Manson with Hitler. I believe there is gradation in sin. I believe the state must dispatch, as it sees fit, those it deems culpable of wrong- doing. As I am the state, I am the dispatcher. We, that is society, are all the victims of wrong doers. We all share in their punishment as well. I will kill to protect another should I be in that position. I (I am the State) send my emissary to kill when it be necessary. I prefer a sentence of life in prison to the death penalty only because I fear killing an innocent. On the word stage, it is seldom possible or practical to capture and imprison for life a seemingly destructive and murderous leader (Oh Guantanamo!) . It is often necessary to kill in this case; and to create war should the leader prove elusive. I guess I feel , to paraphrase the New Testament, "whatever you do to the least of my brothers , you do to me." Therefore, whomever you(that is the State) punish , you punish for me.
I mean to say that a murderer or a rapist is just as bad as the leader of a country, Hitler, for instance and should be dispatched of, especially if the one they have hurt is none other than you and you only. If they hurt others, well, one may choose to close an eye. The New Testatment seems to say 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I suppose it implies then that it is not by love alone that hatred ceased; one has to use violence to put an end to hatred. Now, is that wise?
Although I eat the flesh of dead animals I don't kill anything above a bacteria intentially. I remove noxious insects and the like from the house and place them elsewhere, for example.
If you wish to ever get out of Samsara - NEVER break the 5 precepts of which the first clearly states 'I undertake NOT to Kill" , so why the question at all?
All sentient beings value "life" - whether it be a heavenly being or a Demon. Now that you are a Buddhist(presumably) - you must keep the minimum of 5 precepts at all costs. Life in Samsara is but temporary going in circles of rebirths.
As a follower of Buddha - ask yourself "Would the Buddha ever say yes to killing an ant, mosquito or even a snake?" - avoid them if possible but never kill with intend and try to excuse yourself later that you did it because of this or that.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited February 2011
Sorry. Not that easy. In some texts the Buddha distinctly outlines the conditions for a monk to eat meat, which involves a creature being killed, providing the person in question does not kill the animal themselves, or doesn't have the animal killed specifically for him.
so I'm afraid your argument doesn't wash, because the Buddha would make that decision - but for himself only. He would neither expect you, nor direct you to follow his own decision. That would be up to you. Make your own decision. Deal with the consequences that brings you - and you alone.
I never try to kill any living thing, but that is sometimes difficult. When it comes to insects, I do my best to capture them, and then let them free outside, well away from my house. It takes a little more effort, sure... But I feel that it is worth it.
I don’t know what chestnut you are referring to but why not? It makes the world go round.
On a more serious note, I do like to think that Buddha would make a decision for himself only. I suppose precepts are not commandments. Just as you say, make your decision and bear the consequences.
Dear Ehipassiko, It seems to me that we are breaking the precepts all the time and that could mean we would not be ever be able to get out of Samsara. And I don’t really know if other sentient beings value life. Sometimes, I think I can’t even say that for humans since some of us are wasting our life away and I just read in the local paper that a young girl wrote in her Facebook that she would take her life and she did. Dear dorje, Do you think a killing can be done with a good intention? Dear Zayl, We can put the insect outside so that it could starve itself to death! (just joking)
If you are stuck on a ship with a suicide bomber who is threatening to blow everyone into pieces, I think it's good intention to kill the suicide bomber. In cases where the hostage taker has already killed one person, it would seem to be most compassionate to kill the killer in order to prevent him from taking more lives.
@dorje, And yet, the Buddha himself in that same situation would not, or do you think so? I don't believe he would kill no matter what the circumstances, and he was fully enlightened. We may feel otherwise (and do otherwise), but that does not necessarily mean it is enlightened action to kill one to save many. That's just general good human behavior; something we'd consider to be a good action regardless of our religion (or no religion)... and as such we take it as a given, just as we take it for a given that there actually is such a thing as death; that people will die. I don't believe any fully-enlightened being would kill in that circumstance.
Maybe one could exude so much love that his equipment turned into flowers? (er...the bombing equipment!)
I recall seeing a Tibetan Buddhist illustration something like that years ago -though I think it was arrows, not bombs. .
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
we're going off topic here. I could hardly equate the actions of a fly with those of a terrorist. Although admittedly, if you consider germ warfare the gap narrows.....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Maybe one could exude so much love that his equipment turned into flowers? (er...the bombing equipment!)
I recall seeing a Tibetan Buddhist illustration something like that years ago -though I think it was arrows, not bombs. .
I think you'll find it's allegorical.
There's a similar picture hanging in the reception hall of my local Theravada temple. It's when the Buddha was being assaulted by the arrows of Mara....but they fell on his head and around him like a shower of sweet-smelling blooms. it refers to the powers of transformation of mental afflictions that a Wise one develops. It's a common allegory in all traditions....
Hi Cloud, Dorje, this brings to mind the Jataka story of the then Bodhisattva (our Buddha to be) killing a murderer before the murderer occurred. And (surely this is no accident here) the setting was on a ship! The Bodhisattva saw into the mind of the murderer to be, saw the act to be taken and the consequences to be reaped. The Bodhisattva decided to act on compassion for the murderer to be and his unwilling victims and take on the consequences himself. I am very vague on the details, maybe someone else can fill them in with more accuracy, but I think the Buddha spent some time in hell, but because of the compassion involved it was an extremely short time, possibly so short as to effectively be nonexistent. I suspect that by this stage the Bodhisattva would be immune to the torments of hell anyway. Here is a reference. http://www.khandro.net/dailylife_war.htm , look for "It is true, however, that one Jataka....." without the dots The rest of that page is good as well in this context.
Today I found a big beetle-looking bug crawling on a door at work and at first I thoughtlessly started to move towards it as if I was going to squish it, but then I stopped myself. I felt terrible for even thinking of killing it and quickly went to find a piece of paper to take it outside (weird, just wrote "outself"). I managed to easily get it onto the paper and saw it spread it's wings, it was bright red underneath and I actually thought it was quite interesting looking. I was very glad I didn't mindlessly kill it. On my way outside it fell off a couple times and I scooped it back on, hopefully I didn't hurt it's little legs, and placed it outside with the trees. It sat very still once we got outside and I smiled at it, hoping it's next rebirth would be a good one!
I thought the same thing when I found a poor dead mouse in the parking lot. It was just lying there, stiff, and I felt very sad that it was all alone. I used a piece of plastic to carry it to the same grassy area while chanting OM MANI PADME HUM and placed it under a tree. I prayed that it would be better off in it's next life.
I wonder how often does a person got stuck up with a crazed terrorist.
Not often, maybe once in a lifetime. Maybe never. So actually, such questions about killing flies and other insects are irrelevant.
If the animal brings harm, and there is no possible way of getting out of that harm's way, then you should use logic. I follow the steps of Scare, Threaten, Hit, Hurt, Kill. To sacrifice your own life just because you do not want to break the No Killing precept is plain stupid.
And yes, it's nice to feel sad for a dead rat. It may be cute and furry when it was alive, but remember it carries diseases while alive, and would be better off dead.
Sometimes I don't know if there's too much mushiness around animals. Animals should be treated as animals. They should not be humanized. Yes I know they can feel pain and we should help it when we are able to, but we must remember that an animal is much more dangerous when injured than when it is not. It's just a survival reaction to not getting eaten.
Today I found a big beetle-looking bug crawling on a door at work and at first I thoughtlessly started to move towards it as if I was going to squish it, but then I stopped myself. I felt terrible for even thinking of killing it and quickly went to find a piece of paper to take it outside (weird, just wrote "outself"). I managed to easily get it onto the paper and saw it spread it's wings, it was bright red underneath and I actually thought it was quite interesting looking. I was very glad I didn't mindlessly kill it. On my way outside it fell off a couple times and I scooped it back on, hopefully I didn't hurt it's little legs, and placed it outside with the trees. It sat very still once we got outside and I smiled at it, hoping it's next rebirth would be a good one!
I thought the same thing when I found a poor dead mouse in the parking lot. It was just lying there, stiff, and I felt very sad that it was all alone. I used a piece of plastic to carry it to the same grassy area while chanting OM MANI PADME HUM and placed it under a tree. I prayed that it would be better off in it's next life.
No wonder people think I'm such a hippie
Good on ya Mugzy, the first steps are prevented because we wonder what people think of us, yet I think people actually admire you when you save life, even if they outwardly seem perplexed. Possibly not, thought. We have an increased cricket population due to excessive summer rain and now I've taken a few outside people just know that's the way I act so they think nothing of it, yet I thought a bit strange at first. I think little actions like this spreads ripples to others and you don't know how much difference it can make. And you know, even though its an insect, I'm happy to do such a small thing. Its far better than the self inflicted pain you get when you deliberately kill. I think this thread is important, take each individual action on its own merit, don't rely on preexisting formulas for actions. If you have to kill an insect or other animal do with complete mindfulness and see if you can detect the pain (in yourself) that I'm talking about.
Cheers, WK
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Its far better than the self inflicted pain you get when you deliberately kill. I think this thread is important, take each individual action on its own merit, don't rely on preexisting formulas for actions. If you have to kill an insect or other animal do with complete mindfulness and see if you can detect the pain (in yourself) that I'm talking about.
Cheers, WK
yes. this really is what matters.
i do wonder though, i swear i have met people who seem to lack this pain when killing things smaller than themselves (or hunting, perhaps). and sometimes, even worse than lacking pain, they relish the kill, take pride and joy in it. what can be said of these types of people? how does one become like this?
If you have to kill an insect or other animal do with complete mindfulness and see if you can detect the pain (in yourself) that I'm talking about.
Cheers, WK
yes. this really is what matters.
i do wonder though, i swear i have met people who seem to lack this pain when killing things smaller than themselves (or hunting, perhaps). and sometimes, even worse than lacking pain, they relish the kill, take pride and joy in it. what can be said of these types of people? how does one become like this?
The pleasure in their faces is not actually pleasure, its pain but they think its pleasure. The eyes are wrong and the face even though it may be laughing is twisted unnaturally.
Cheers, WK
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
If you have to kill an insect or other animal do with complete mindfulness and see if you can detect the pain (in yourself) that I'm talking about.
Cheers, WK
yes. this really is what matters.
i do wonder though, i swear i have met people who seem to lack this pain when killing things smaller than themselves (or hunting, perhaps). and sometimes, even worse than lacking pain, they relish the kill, take pride and joy in it. what can be said of these types of people? how does one become like this?
The pleasure in their faces is not actually pleasure, its pain but they think its pleasure. The eyes are wrong and the face even though it may be laughing is twisted unnaturally.
Cheers, WK
so you don't believe that people can actually enjoy hunting? i'm not sure if i believe this. i would like to hear from someone who used to hunt on this matter(or still does). i used to fish a lot when i was younger, and i don't believe that i mistook pain for pleasure. i feel as though i was just misinformed. i simply didn't treat the fish with respect or believe it was worthy. i also remember feeling a certain amount of anger toward the fish. how strange that they try to bite and poke you when you're removing metal from their faces... hrm.
Do you think we should just keep silent when we have irrelevant questions to ask.
Dear Whoknows, Perhaps, we have to start small. Before we ever start taking a human’s life, we actually will stop taking it by practising compassion and patience on something as little as a fly.
Dear zombiegirl, Would you call these people unmindful or ignorant? The way Whoknows puts it, it seems like they are ignorant.
@footiam, Causal interdependence. Everything that comes to be does so because of conditions; persists due to supporting conditions; changes due to conditions; ceases to be (identifiable as the same "thing") due to loss of supporting conditions.
Fuel/oxygen present, apply a heat source and a fire starts.
Fuel/oxygen remaining, the fire continues to burn.
Fuel/oxygen depleted or cut off, the fire ceases.
Conditionality is sometimes referred to also as Dependent Origination, but this gets confusing because Dependent Origination is also used to talk about how ignorance leads to suffering. Through our karma, we change the conditioning of our minds, and so conditionality is our reality and our path to freedom.
theres a mouse in my bathroom, should i hide my cat? i do find flys congregating around my kitchen window, so i open the window and shoo them out, cuts down on a lot of killing.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Dear zombiegirl, Would you call these people unmindful or ignorant? The way Whoknows puts it, it seems like they are ignorant.
it might be ignorance. but not in a general sense, of course. simply ignorant to the suffering of another. but i'm not sure if it is a result of being unmindful or if it is a learned behavior. i have heard many people tell stories of how traumatic it was to shoot their first deer.
Dear Cloud, Thanks for the explanation. I have always wonder what is dependent origination and now that you explained, I have a little idea. I wonder now if there is anything in this world that comes into being without a cause. That human beings exist must be due to something but it is not God who makes them?
Dear former monk John, You can feed your cat. Give it some rice.
Dear zombiegirl, If it is traumatic to shoot the first deer, would they shoot a second deer, I wonder.
@footiam, The Buddha taught just so, that nothing comes into existence without cause. Indeed all there is can be attributed to cause and effect, conditionality, working upon the ephemeral "stuff" of the universe. From whence did the first bacteria arise? The first tree? The first serpent? The first human?
Our species, if not through acts of a creator God, would have once been "new" to the world; but it did not appear out of nowhere. The evolution of life is like the evolution of mind; a stream of change, leading from simple existence to ever increasing complexity. Do you think "human" is the end, or will life continue to push itself further?
Comments
Just kidding....
Mmmmmmmmmmm something has to help decompose rotting waste, I think flies do a good job of it as well as other carnivorous and scavenger species.
Generally:-
The problem is not the flies but our opinions/perceptions of the flies. How much of this issue is exaggerated for commercial gain? How easily are people manipulated by seeing animations of flies and cockroaches with flecks falling off them that I suppose is meant to represent germs?
And really, unless you live where there are significant risk of disease due to mozzies, what's a little mozzy bite, even if it swells up a bit? "suck it up princess!" seems appropriate here.
Most of the time we justify what easiest for ourselves, I know I do it. In this case its easier to kill the fly that to catch it after-all.
However, this is going against my own non-judgemental ideal, but I'll post it anyway, but feel free to disregard.
Cheers, WK
A very funny a bit creepy animated cartoon on topic. 5 stars worth a look
The person who created the fly is very wise!
Dear Jeffrey,
The video is also very wise.
Dear Kelraldo,
Some Buddhist monks take meat too.So, why not lay buddhists?
We could get all the most eminent Buddhist thinkers together and they could make a list. (Rabbis do it)
I think if we did this my neighbor would appear on the list as non-sentient and I could get rid of him.
Dispatch is the key, since thought does not belong in this particular discussion.
With flies, I first "shoo" and then use a "shoe."
Any one want to start a list? "Things to be Dispatched"
But I have been told that sometimes killing is unavoidable (as in self-defence). It is not that it doesn't generate negative karma, but that there is no point in concerning ourselves with the consequences of unavoidable actions. We don't set out to kill, we don't kill with any relish, there are just some times we have to.
I can avoid killing houseflies by not leaving food around that they are attracted to, and by allowing spiders to live in my house. I can avoid slugs by allowing the hedgehog to live in my garden, and planting marigolds and other anti-slug plants around my cabbages. Very often, if I am careful, I can avoid the necessity of having to kill things by preventing the creature moving in.
Eeeek! To have that resident in your intestine - I think I'll curse the man who create it!
Dear Sndymorn,
I suppose some sentient beings are not so sentient. Perhaps, in the previous life, they must be something slimy and unsentient! But I would only consider making a list of who is sentient and who is not if it can lead to enlightenment!
Dear Ada_B
Some things as you say are unavoidable. Que Sera Sera. If we have to pay our dues, just pay but I do like your ways of avoiding the necessity of having to kill things. Just create an unfavourable environment for them!
Prohibitions against killing are an important topic, and not a simple one. Here's a sample of individual topics that each require separate answers:
..............................
What do the sutras say about not killing and how it fits into the rest of Buddha's teachings, and how do they distinguish between sentient and nonsentient beings, etc.
How have Buddhists, monks and laypeople, translated those teachings into their daily lives, in the past and today?
Is it possible and a correct Buddhist practice to not kill at all, and still live a normal life?
What are my current attitudes and practices when it comes to this subject?
..............................
To answer the original question, yes, I will kill a fly, if I have a reason to kill it. And I eat bread, even though thousands of baby field mice are slaughtered by the harvester to bring the wheat to market, but I use live traps around the house to avoid killing the mice that eat the bread in my kitchen. I dislike killing, so I avoid doing it when possible while knowing life feeds on life, and the Middle way avoids such extremes as twisting a normal life into contortions to avoid killing anything at all, directly or indirectly.
It has nothing to do with karma or some list of does and don'ts in a sutra. There's no list in my mind that says, "These animals are sacred, and the ones on this list are fair game!"
The questions you posed are rather difficult. I like to think of the middle way as avoiding extremes; like you say - we need not twist our normal life just to avoid killing. Personaaly, I think that is practical and wise.
No flies do not "mostly" pass(not catch) disease because of people. They have many sources for their food and many opportunities to collect disease from these sources. Flies are good; they are useful. Many animals feed off them. They help pollinate plants. They amuse my cat.
Because they carry disease to me, I will dispatch them when necessary.
"First shoo, then shoe"
If one must "consider" the act of killing flies, let him be brief. The damn things can be hard to track down.
The question now should be, Should we kill man?!
If a country, following such a leader- someone bent on destruction- begins the slaughter of innocent people, I would support this leader's removal by any means including killing.
I am not a Buddhist, but I believe, from my readings , one who follows the Buddha's path would necessarily agree with me. To save many , sometimes a few must die.
I guess my point in using the word "dispatch" in dealing with flies (oh! there is the topic) is that I believe one needn't "feel" anything in this exercise. So too, a soldier we send to remove a thug needn't feel anything. Society depends on controlling creatures, great and small, for our well -being. Creatures which cannot be controlled peacefully must be dispassionately dispatched. People (certainly not only Buddhist) whom continue to wrestle with this notion , in my opinion, waste their time and energy.
I do not equate flies and man. I only say , for the work of removing bad men, I wish our soldiers and police a clear conscious in this endeavor. I know many ex servicemen, and know many suffer for the deeds they performed. I try to acknowledge and thank them frequently. THEY do not discuss this issue in theoretical terms.
And, for the work of removing "bad" flies, I wish you success.
I suppose then, a murderer or a rapist is just as bad as a leader of a country who is bent on destruction and should be dispatched, that is if the ‘destructiveness’ is directed at you. Would it be okay if you are not the target of destruction.
Dear CoffeeBean,
That will save the insects from doing the killing of human beings.
I am not sure what you mean. I do not equate Charles Manson with Hitler. I believe there is gradation in sin. I believe the state must dispatch, as it sees fit, those it deems culpable of wrong- doing. As I am the state, I am the dispatcher. We, that is society, are all the victims of wrong doers. We all share in their punishment as well.
I will kill to protect another should I be in that position. I (I am the State) send my emissary to kill when it be necessary. I prefer a sentence of life in prison to the death penalty only because I fear killing an innocent.
On the word stage, it is seldom possible or practical to capture and imprison for life a seemingly destructive and murderous leader (Oh Guantanamo!) . It is often necessary to kill in this case; and to create war should the leader prove elusive.
I guess I feel , to paraphrase the New Testament, "whatever you do to the least of my brothers , you do to me." Therefore, whomever you(that is the State) punish , you punish for me.
I mean to say that a murderer or a rapist is just as bad as the leader of a country, Hitler, for instance and should be dispatched of, especially if the one they have hurt is none other than you and you only. If they hurt others, well, one may choose to close an eye. The New Testatment seems to say 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I suppose it implies then that it is not by love alone that hatred ceased; one has to use violence to put an end to hatred. Now, is that wise?
Now, that you mention bacteria, I wonder if people mind boiling water and risk killing them.
depends on the situation.
And what is the situation?
All sentient beings value "life" - whether it be a heavenly being or a Demon.
Now that you are a Buddhist(presumably) - you must keep the minimum of 5 precepts at all costs. Life in Samsara is but temporary going in circles of rebirths.
As a follower of Buddha - ask yourself "Would the Buddha ever say yes to killing an ant, mosquito or even a snake?" - avoid them if possible but never kill with intend and try to excuse yourself later that you did it because of this or that.
In some texts the Buddha distinctly outlines the conditions for a monk to eat meat, which involves a creature being killed, providing the person in question does not kill the animal themselves, or doesn't have the animal killed specifically for him.
so I'm afraid your argument doesn't wash, because the Buddha would make that decision - but for himself only. He would neither expect you, nor direct you to follow his own decision.
That would be up to you.
Make your own decision. Deal with the consequences that brings you - and you alone.
I don’t know what chestnut you are referring to but why not? It makes the world go round.
On a more serious note, I do like to think that Buddha would make a decision for himself only. I suppose precepts are not commandments. Just as you say, make your decision and bear the consequences.
Dear Ehipassiko,
It seems to me that we are breaking the precepts all the time and that could mean we would not be ever be able to get out of Samsara. And I don’t really know if other sentient beings value life. Sometimes, I think I can’t even say that for humans since some of us are wasting our life away and I just read in the local paper that a young girl wrote in her Facebook that she would take her life and she did.
Dear dorje,
Do you think a killing can be done with a good intention?
Dear Zayl,
We can put the insect outside so that it could starve itself to death! (just joking)
Just food for thought.
Maybe one could exude so much love that his equipment turned into flowers? (er...the bombing equipment!)
I recall seeing a Tibetan Buddhist illustration something like that years ago -though I think it was arrows, not bombs.
.
I could hardly equate the actions of a fly with those of a terrorist.
Although admittedly, if you consider germ warfare the gap narrows.....
There's a similar picture hanging in the reception hall of my local Theravada temple. It's when the Buddha was being assaulted by the arrows of Mara....but they fell on his head and around him like a shower of sweet-smelling blooms.
it refers to the powers of transformation of mental afflictions that a Wise one develops.
It's a common allegory in all traditions....
Cheers, WK
I wonder how often does a person got stuck up with a crazed terrorist.
Dear Cloud,
You make me wonder if religion does really have a role in making a human out of man. Why can’t a person just do the right thing himself?
Dear Dazzle,
Would you prefer to make flowers or bread out of stone?
Dear federica,
Going off topic is expected. We have to meditate more!
Dear Whoknows,
Who knows if the Jataka tales are for real?
I thought the same thing when I found a poor dead mouse in the parking lot. It was just lying there, stiff, and I felt very sad that it was all alone. I used a piece of plastic to carry it to the same grassy area while chanting OM MANI PADME HUM and placed it under a tree. I prayed that it would be better off in it's next life.
No wonder people think I'm such a hippie
If the animal brings harm, and there is no possible way of getting out of that harm's way, then you should use logic. I follow the steps of Scare, Threaten, Hit, Hurt, Kill. To sacrifice your own life just because you do not want to break the No Killing precept is plain stupid.
And yes, it's nice to feel sad for a dead rat. It may be cute and furry when it was alive, but remember it carries diseases while alive, and would be better off dead.
Sometimes I don't know if there's too much mushiness around animals. Animals should be treated as animals. They should not be humanized. Yes I know they can feel pain and we should help it when we are able to, but we must remember that an animal is much more dangerous when injured than when it is not. It's just a survival reaction to not getting eaten.
Cheers, WK
i do wonder though, i swear i have met people who seem to lack this pain when killing things smaller than themselves (or hunting, perhaps). and sometimes, even worse than lacking pain, they relish the kill, take pride and joy in it. what can be said of these types of people? how does one become like this?
Cheers, WK
Don’t understand much about conditionality.
Dear rainbowwarrior,
Will you kill then if there is a need?
Dear mugzy,
A hippie can be so kind.
Dear dorje,
Do you think we should just keep silent when we have irrelevant questions to ask.
Dear Whoknows,
Perhaps, we have to start small. Before we ever start taking a human’s life, we actually will stop taking it by practising compassion and patience on something as little as a fly.
Dear zombiegirl,
Would you call these people unmindful or ignorant? The way Whoknows puts it, it seems like they are ignorant.
Fuel/oxygen present, apply a heat source and a fire starts.
Fuel/oxygen remaining, the fire continues to burn.
Fuel/oxygen depleted or cut off, the fire ceases.
Conditionality is sometimes referred to also as Dependent Origination, but this gets confusing because Dependent Origination is also used to talk about how ignorance leads to suffering. Through our karma, we change the conditioning of our minds, and so conditionality is our reality and our path to freedom.
Thanks for the explanation. I have always wonder what is dependent origination and now that you explained, I have a little idea. I wonder now if there is anything in this world that comes into being without a cause. That human beings exist must be due to something but it is not God who makes them?
Dear former monk John,
You can feed your cat. Give it some rice.
Dear zombiegirl,
If it is traumatic to shoot the first deer, would they shoot a second deer, I wonder.
Our species, if not through acts of a creator God, would have once been "new" to the world; but it did not appear out of nowhere. The evolution of life is like the evolution of mind; a stream of change, leading from simple existence to ever increasing complexity. Do you think "human" is the end, or will life continue to push itself further?
Food for thought.