Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
A man walking past a river saw a monk sitting at its banks meditating. He stopped to watch the monk who, having noticed a scorpion drowning in the water, reached in and rescued it. As he sat the scorpion down on the sands, it stung him in the hand.
The monk ignored the assult and returned to his meditation. Soon, however, the scorpion found himself, once more, struggling in the water. And once again, the monk rescued the scorpion, enduring yet another sting to the hand. This happened several times, the monk continuing to rescue the scorpion despite the scorpion's frequent stings.
The man carefully approached the monk and respectfully beseached him. "May I ask, sir, why you continue to help the thankless scorpion, when you know he is going to sting you? Shouldn't you let the scorpion drown to prevent it from hurting you again?"
The monk turned to the man and said, "It is in the scorpion's nature to sting me, and it is in my nature to help him."
If "compassion for all beings = picking and choosing what live creatures are useful". Then might as stop practicing Buddhism all together. You should join the protestors who supports death penalities. Since lots of humans are deemed "useless" in this world.
People are strange. They will happily keep a large hairy dog in their home with them, while waging a constant war against fleas, mites, worms and other beings that might otherwise live in harmony with an animal like that. The dog is more useful to the fleas than it is to the 'owner'. Their dog will relish eating a pile of feces or decomposed flesh or worse roll around in it and then come home and play with their children. And they are afraid that a fly will bring disease into their home.
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
People are strange. They will happily keep a large hairy dog in their home with them, while waging a constant war against fleas, mites, worms and other beings that might otherwise live in harmony with an animal like that. The dog is more useful to the fleas than it is to the 'owner'. Their dog will relish eating a pile of feces or decomposed flesh or worse roll around in it and then come home and play with their children. And they are afraid that a fly will bring disease into their home.
i totally agree with this. when i was an innocent child, i remember playing with flies, lol. and i never got sick... or if i did, it was obviously nothing that i couldn't handle.
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
I was looking at the wikipedia article (it might change so look now if ya wanna see) on Om Ma Ni Pad Me Hum... and it corresponds to the 6 paramitas of the mahayana. Om purifies the god realm - pride (generosity), Ma purifies the asura realm - jealousy (ethics), Ni purifies the human realm - passion (patience), Pad purifies the animal realm (perseverance/energy), Me purifies the hungry ghost realm (renunciation), Hum purifies the Hell realm - anger (wisdom of emptiness).
The animal realm is ignorance/prejudice. Both our ignorance and the flies. It is purified by perseverance. The deity symbol is equanimity. With persistance and questions we purify ignorance. But we need to develope the other 5 paramitas at the same time.
That is the whole buddhist path practically? And to practice it fully could be your entire practice of your lifetime says my lama.
The mantra also means Om jewel in Lotus Hum or Om path Hum
the path is broken down into Ma Ni or method (ethics/patience) and wisdom (energy and renunciation)....
For a bodhisattva the first 5 paramitas are to become attractive to beings haven conquered pride/jealousy/passion/ignorance/lust. The boddhisattva becomes unstained and attractive to all beings. The final Hum is the wisdom of emptiness in which all the 5 paramitas rest. Anger is converted into clarity which in myth could be 'omniscience' but not same as Christian Deity (I think?)... This wisdom is stabilized on the 10 bhumis of the bodhisattva path and all the methods of compassion (such as ethics) are perfected by the stainless wisdom of emptiness.
My teacher teaches this as openness (Om Hum?) clarity (Lotus) sensitivity (Jewel) I am guessing this... OCS is a mahamudra view of the buddha nature (emptiness) so it isn't at an intellectual level.
That is why it is not just a wiki article but would be the practice of a lifetime. Not as intellectual, but as hearing, contemplation (life), and meditation.
I think it also relates to the 6 chakras...
dream - Om truth - Ma empathy - Ni Will - Pad Creativity and subconscious - Me Safety and Life - Hum
If food is nearby (such as at home), I'll kill the fly for health reasons. Here's what wikipedia has to say:
[QUOTE] They are capable of carrying over 100 pathogens, such as typhoid, cholera, Salmonella, bacillary dysentery, tuberculosis, anthrax, ophthalmia, and parasitic worms. [/QUOTE]
Otherwise, I'd let it be-- I find the buzzing pleasantly melancholic
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
I work in a food environment that sells food both in retail and as prepared food to eat. The preventative measures are a national UK requirement of Health and Safety Food Standards regulations, which apply to any and every establishment involved in the handling, preparation sale and consumption of food. We don't have an excessive or notable problem with flies and pests. But these measures are a legal requirement. We are also in close proximity to other food outlets, and while we ourselves do not experience any great issues, other establishments close by may not be so conscientious, or meticulous in their standards.
Hope this clarification helps....
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
The reason you don't see so much of it, is because we are hygiene-oriented and extremely clean. We buy and use countless products which kill germs and eliminate bacteria, and we are generally speaking, extremely clean and hygienically-educated people. So, no. I guess your exposure to such events is not high, precisely because of the standards of social awareness, cleanliness and hygiene....
However, in poorer countries, where personal hygiene is compromised by pollution and lack of general resources, the dangers are far higher....
"Experiments in which flies have been allowed to walk over culture media in sterile dishes have resulted in the growth of over 100 bacterial and fungal colonies from bacteria and fungal spores which the fly deposited. Many of these bacteria are harmless to humans but others may cause serious disease. The greatest danger arises when flies are allowed to alight and feed on the faeces of a person suffering from intestinal disease such as typhoid, cholera or polio. Germs or spores of these diseases may thus be carried by the flies to human food. When this is eaten the bacteria can multiply inside the body and so infect the consumer with the disease. Flies are thought to be responsible for the spread of such diseases as those already mentioned above, also diarrhoea, anthrax, eye inflammation and possibly tuberculosis.
Control. The principal methods of control are obvious once the ways in which flies can spread disease are known. Human faeces, particularly if known to be infected, must be disposed of in such a way that flies cannot possibly reach them. Other sources of infection such as manure heaps must not be allowed to accumulate for long periods near houses. Where this cannot be avoided the material should be stored in fly-proof containers. Food for human consumption must not be stored or displayed in such a way as to allow flies to settle on it. The numbers of houseflies should be kept as low as possible by removing decaying organic detritus in which they breed."
I hate killing flies but I will do it. I'll try to open the screen door and let it out of the house. I'll try to capture and release insects trapped inside.
I move worms back to the drier soil when it rains too much. I stop and move newts to the other side when they are crossing rural roads.
I say a little prayer of gratitude __to__ the fish or fowl on my plate at dinner when I can't avoid eating it. That's when I don't want to get sick from not getting enough protein, or I don't want to be rude to the person(s) who prepared the dinner.
Thoughts and actions all add up (or subtract) from the Karma Bank. I'm not perfect. Sometimes I have to kill the fly because I'm too tired or in a hurry.
It's just respect for living things. As "gross" as flies are, they are still enormously complicated forms of life that we humans can't and probably never will fully comprehend. Obliterating them should be done with at least a little bit of regard.
Then again, I have an easy life. I have time. I'm not struggling to survive where I'm seeing my own acts of killing as a life or death issue.
BTW, AFAIK, Flies vomit the contents of their stomachs on their current food in order to begin digestion of the current food. That means the fly can come directly from a pile of bacteria-laden dog feces and vomit up some of those dog feces on your lunch.
Your immune system can handle a few flies doing than but if there are dozens or hundreds of flies your immune system will eventually be overwhelmed. Flies are killers in that regard; health of the person and numbers of flies are determining factors.
If we were to say that killing a fly or mosquito is ok based on the potential harm that they can cause through carrying disease, then would it would it be reasonable for an alien species to kill humanity based on their observations that we have caused entire species to go extinct, and may be causing serious harm to our environment? I would say yes, and I can't see a logical reason to allow for a double standard.
Yeah, if I were an alien species I'd wipe us out in an instance, most likely. I'd be terrified of us.
Yeah, if I were an alien species I'd wipe us out in an instance, most likely. I'd be terrified of us.
Nah. Though I appreciate the thought I'm guessing you'd have the means necessary to identify and protect those of us who had hope of enlightenment.
Hummm..., perhaps there is there a book we could use on how to interview flies?
Well, considering I would be an alien species, I doubt I'd have any regard for human life. Its like the British coming to America... and the humans are the Native Americans.
I chose not to kill flies. I have no expectations on others and don't judge them according to my beliefs.
Cheers, WK
We can't play God.
Good point. I have a friend that was visiting, he had a fly crawl on the table and he noticed it and squashed it. What I saw in his face was quite amazing (and you can dis-believe me if you wish), he literally looked to be in pain when he squashed the fly! Of course I kept this to myself, yet it was a very interesting observation. I haven't witnessed such a thing lately, but it makes me wonder that: even if you have a justification for doing such a thing, do you suffer when you do it anyway? Was I in the right place at the right time to see karma in action (pun partly intended)?
The Buddha's teaching is more about mental dis-ease. He did not provide a remedy for the control of all the serious physical diseases that affect the world. Perhaps, we should apply the "Middle Way" and and ascertain for ourselves what is skillful and what is not.
Worrying so much about whether to kill or not to kill a fly may be a symptom for this mental disease!
500 lifetimes as a fly is what 20 years? Not so bad.
Not bad if you enjoy the life of a fly!
Half of them will be cut short by Buddhists apparently
I don't really understand by half of them being cut short by Buddhist. Perhaps, you mean to say Buddhists work so hard on enligtenment and when they do get enlightned, life is cut short.
If you can conceptualize your own death - you are already dead.....
If you can conceptualize the fly dead even before the swat - it is already dead...
How may that which is dead kill that which is dead?
Are we really concerned about the enlightenment of the fly?
I wouldn't think that we are really concerned about the enlightenment of the fly. Otherwise, we would not worry so much about whether to swat it or not.
when i think about killing a fly or spider or whatever in my home, i have to consider WHY i want to kill it. i went through a brief stint where i resolved to not kill any spiders, just let them be. after all, they catch other bugs, don't they? then, one day, my apartment was taken over by baby spiders and i broke down and got out the vacuum in terror. i'm talking EVERYWHERE. i don't know how many spiders come from one egg sack, but man, it was terrifying. so now, i just catch them in some tupperwear and throw them outside. i try to do the same with other bugs, flies and the like, because i mean... it's not their fault that i happen to think they're gross and annoying. so what if they land on poo and then possibly land on you. i honestly believe that half the people i shake hands with probably don't wash their hands either. best practice is to avoid touching your face if you haven't washed your hands. at least you know a fly is dirty. i don't even want to think about all of the unknowns we encounter in the day to day.
and on a random side note, i watched a documentary once that discussed maggot therapy. apparently, having flies lay their eggs in your open wounds is extremely beneficial and promotes healing. who knew?
Maybe, if we have our days filled with a lot of positive human activities, we would not so much preoccupied with to kill or how to kill. Some people here do take the effort to remove an animal from one place and release it in another. A Mahayana monk once said it may not mean anything if the animal is introducted in a new habitat where it is devoid of food.
That's a good practice in loving-kindness toward insects there, just move them so there's no disturbance. Almost as good as not being disturbed by them in the first place.
Zombiegirl, Spiders have proven beneficial records in catching pests...like flies... and dispatching them on our behalf.... Flies are disease-ridden and as such, fair game, in my opinion.
There is a different set of recommendations for laypeople and monks. Only those who wish to be monks are advised to leave for the solitary life. However, everyone, both monks and lay people, are advised to not kill any living beings. This is why not killing is the first precept and it is also the most important one, for both monks and laypeople.
Why are there two sets? If a set is good for the monks, would it also be good for the laypeople?
If we were to say that killing a fly or mosquito is ok based on the potential harm that they can cause through carrying disease, then would it would it be reasonable for an alien species to kill humanity based on their observations that we have caused entire species to go extinct, and may be causing serious harm to our environment? I would say yes, and I can't see a logical reason to allow for a double standard. The mosquito takes blood to give birth to it's young, to allow for the continuation of life. The fly eats so it can give birth to young, and continue the flow of life. A tiger kills to accomplish the same thing, should the tiger then be slaughtered in order to prevent their killing? Each animal, including the lowly insects plays a role in our environment. Humans spread disease and destroy as well.
I think that the argument mentioned before stating that we should no consider an insect sentient, because it has not be proven thus, is simply a fallacy of ignorance. No one has proven that God exists, should I then believe it doesn't? No one has proven that God does not exist, should I then believe it does? You can not make a logically sound argument based on ignorance alone.
Maybe, we don't have to bring the aliens in. Just that, Man do spread diseases, too, don't they? Like AIDS and even if it is not diseases, they could be involved in all sorts of crimes.
A man walking past a river saw a monk sitting at its banks meditating. He stopped to watch the monk who, having noticed a scorpion drowning in the water, reached in and rescued it. As he sat the scorpion down on the sands, it stung him in the hand.
The monk ignored the assult and returned to his meditation. Soon, however, the scorpion found himself, once more, struggling in the water. And once again, the monk rescued the scorpion, enduring yet another sting to the hand. This happened several times, the monk continuing to rescue the scorpion despite the scorpion's frequent stings.
The man carefully approached the monk and respectfully beseached him. "May I ask, sir, why you continue to help the thankless scorpion, when you know he is going to sting you? Shouldn't you let the scorpion drown to prevent it from hurting you again?"
The monk turned to the man and said, "It is in the scorpion's nature to sting me, and it is in my nature to help him."
If "compassion for all beings = picking and choosing what live creatures are useful". Then might as stop practicing Buddhism all together. You should join the protestors who supports death penalities. Since lots of humans are deemed "useless" in this world.
If we are man, particularly Buddhists, we do not have a choice but to do good, I suppose. I like that.
People are strange. They will happily keep a large hairy dog in their home with them, while waging a constant war against fleas, mites, worms and other beings that might otherwise live in harmony with an animal like that. The dog is more useful to the fleas than it is to the 'owner'. Their dog will relish eating a pile of feces or decomposed flesh or worse roll around in it and then come home and play with their children. And they are afraid that a fly will bring disease into their home.
People are strange. They will happily keep a large hairy dog in their home with them, while waging a constant war against fleas, mites, worms and other beings that might otherwise live in harmony with an animal like that. The dog is more useful to the fleas than it is to the 'owner'. Their dog will relish eating a pile of feces or decomposed flesh or worse roll around in it and then come home and play with their children. And they are afraid that a fly will bring disease into their home.
i totally agree with this. when i was an innocent child, i remember playing with flies, lol. and i never got sick... or if i did, it was obviously nothing that i couldn't handle.
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
Now, I am beginning to think that it's not the fly's fault. It's the microorganism that it carries. Maybe, the question should be to kill or not to kill the microorganisms.
One of the Buddhist precepts is not to kill and that makes many people ask what is sometimes termed the mosquito question: Is it all right to kill a mosquito. In the same line, would you kill a fly?
i got a fly mamed Bob. I find if I name them it helps not to kill them. Guilty on the Mosquito question....Aarrg....reactionary non thought slap.
At this point in time this thread has 128 (probably more now) posts in it.
*yup 3 posts were made as I typed; 2 by Footiam
Footiam, you have 11 in a row on this page alone. Don't you think you are drowning out your very own message by responding in such a manner? Are you aware of the edit button? I mean, you could combine more than one response to a post. You could also combine more than one thought per post.
And I have never understood the need to quote at length just to respond with an off-hand one-liner.
Just a suggestion...and a bit of complaining...
Hell, that kind of post spam can drown out the 2 other posters that happened to be sandwiched!
Thanks, Jeffrey for the link and the explanation. To tell you the truth, I don't understand why it must be these words Om mani padme hum that works and how it works. Why can't it be other words? I have a long way to go and most probably, I would not understand this this lifetime!
If food is nearby (such as at home), I'll kill the fly for health reasons. Here's what wikipedia has to say:
[Otherwise, I'd let it be-- I find the buzzing pleasantly melancholic
Maybe, I do that too, swat it to save the food from being contaminated. I'll try listening to the fly buzzing next time to see if it is melancholic. Most of the time, I didn't hear anything - probably deaf or not mindful enough!
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
I work in a food environment that sells food both in retail and as prepared food to eat. Hope this clarification helps....
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
The reason you don't see so much of it, is because we are hygiene-oriented and extremely clean. We buy and use countless products which kill germs and eliminate bacteria, and we are generally speaking, extremely clean and hygienically-educated people. So, no. I guess your exposure to such events is not high, precisely because of the standards of social awareness, cleanliness and hygiene....
However, in poorer countries, where personal hygiene is compromised by pollution and lack of general resources, the dangers are far higher....
"Experiments in which flies have been allowed to walk over culture media in sterile dishes have resulted in the growth of over 100 bacterial and fungal colonies from bacteria and fungal spores which the fly deposited. Many of these bacteria are harmless to humans but others may cause serious disease. The greatest danger arises when flies are allowed to alight and feed on the faeces of a person suffering from intestinal disease such as typhoid, cholera or polio. Germs or spores of these diseases may thus be carried by the flies to human food. When this is eaten the bacteria can multiply inside the body and so infect the consumer with the disease. Flies are thought to be responsible for the spread of such diseases as those already mentioned above, also diarrhoea, anthrax, eye inflammation and possibly tuberculosis.
Control. The principal methods of control are obvious once the ways in which flies can spread disease are known. Human faeces, particularly if known to be infected, must be disposed of in such a way that flies cannot possibly reach them. Other sources of infection such as manure heaps must not be allowed to accumulate for long periods near houses. Where this cannot be avoided the material should be stored in fly-proof containers. Food for human consumption must not be stored or displayed in such a way as to allow flies to settle on it. The numbers of houseflies should be kept as low as possible by removing decaying organic detritus in which they breed."
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
I work in a food environment that sells food both in retail and as prepared food to eat. The preventative measures are a national UK requirement of Health and Safety Food Standards regulations, which apply to any and every establishment involved in the handling, preparation sale and consumption of food. We don't have an excessive or notable problem with flies and pests. But these measures are a legal requirement. We are also in close proximity to other food outlets, and while we ourselves do not experience any great issues, other establishments close by may not be so conscientious, or meticulous in their standards.
Hope this clarification helps....
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
The reason you don't see so much of it, is because we are hygiene-oriented and extremely clean. We buy and use countless products which kill germs and eliminate bacteria, and we are generally speaking, extremely clean and hygienically-educated people. So, no. I guess your exposure to such events is not high, precisely because of the standards of social awareness, cleanliness and hygiene....
However, in poorer countries, where personal hygiene is compromised by pollution and lack of general resources, the dangers are far higher....
"Experiments in which flies have been allowed to walk over culture media in sterile dishes have resulted in the growth of over 100 bacterial and fungal colonies from bacteria and fungal spores which the fly deposited. Many of these bacteria are harmless to humans but others may cause serious disease. The greatest danger arises when flies are allowed to alight and feed on the faeces of a person suffering from intestinal disease such as typhoid, cholera or polio. Germs or spores of these diseases may thus be carried by the flies to human food. When this is eaten the bacteria can multiply inside the body and so infect the consumer with the disease. Flies are thought to be responsible for the spread of such diseases as those already mentioned above, also diarrhoea, anthrax, eye inflammation and possibly tuberculosis.
Control. The principal methods of control are obvious once the ways in which flies can spread disease are known. Human faeces, particularly if known to be infected, must be disposed of in such a way that flies cannot possibly reach them. Other sources of infection such as manure heaps must not be allowed to accumulate for long periods near houses. Where this cannot be avoided the material should be stored in fly-proof containers. Food for human consumption must not be stored or displayed in such a way as to allow flies to settle on it. The numbers of houseflies should be kept as low as possible by removing decaying organic detritus in which they breed."
I hate killing flies but I will do it. I'll try to open the screen door and let it out of the house. I'll try to capture and release insects trapped inside.
I move worms back to the drier soil when it rains too much. I stop and move newts to the other side when they are crossing rural roads.
I say a little prayer of gratitude __to__ the fish or fowl on my plate at dinner when I can't avoid eating it. That's when I don't want to get sick from not getting enough protein, or I don't want to be rude to the person(s) who prepared the dinner.
Thoughts and actions all add up (or subtract) from the Karma Bank. I'm not perfect. Sometimes I have to kill the fly because I'm too tired or in a hurry.
It's just respect for living things. As "gross" as flies are, they are still enormously complicated forms of life that we humans can't and probably never will fully comprehend. Obliterating them should be done with at least a little bit of regard.
Then again, I have an easy life. I have time. I'm not struggling to survive where I'm seeing my own acts of killing as a life or death issue.
I wonder if we do kill flies, do we have to say a prayer of gratitude?
BTW, AFAIK, Flies vomit the contents of their stomachs on their current food in order to begin digestion of the current food. That means the fly can come directly from a pile of bacteria-laden dog feces and vomit up some of those dog feces on your lunch.
Your immune system can handle a few flies doing than but if there are dozens or hundreds of flies your immune system will eventually be overwhelmed. Flies are killers in that regard; health of the person and numbers of flies are determining factors.
If we do not know flies vomit and cause disease, we may not want to kill them . Just like if we don't know karma, we will not think about whether to kill or not to kill a fly.
If we were to say that killing a fly or mosquito is ok based on the potential harm that they can cause through carrying disease, then would it would it be reasonable for an alien species to kill humanity based on their observations that we have caused entire species to go extinct, and may be causing serious harm to our environment? I would say yes, and I can't see a logical reason to allow for a double standard.
Yeah, if I were an alien species I'd wipe us out in an instance, most likely. I'd be terrified of us.
Good point. I have a friend that was visiting, he had a fly crawl on the table and he noticed it and squashed it. What I saw in his face was quite amazing (and you can dis-believe me if you wish), he literally looked to be in pain when he squashed the fly! Of course I kept this to myself, yet it was a very interesting observation. I haven't witnessed such a thing lately, but it makes me wonder that: even if you have a justification for doing such a thing, do you suffer when you do it anyway? Was I in the right place at the right time to see karma in action (pun partly intended)?
Cheers, WK
I believe it but I would think that guy is being over emotional.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2010
Some spiders, I suppose are poisonous.
ALL spiders are poisonous.
Most are completely harmless to us, because either they cannot penetrate our skin, or they're not sufficiently toxic to render any lasting pain or problem....
And footiam, yes please..... try 'multiquoting' in one post... several replies in a row become tedious.
Killing is an action that plants the seeds for negative karma to ripen. Period.
I kill all poisonous spiders (sometimes I'll catch and release them) that are in my house to protect the others that live in my house. (in Colorado, we mostly just have to worry about brown recluses... sometimes black widows)
I accept the negative karma. I would rather take the negative karma than for the others in my house to get bitten. Also... I would rather kill the spider myself and accept the consequences of that action than to wait for another in my house to kill the spider and have that karma ripen on them. [google brown recluse spider bites, they are horrible (not for the squeamish)] (Please note, that this mindset may lessen the karma by a slight amount, but I still must accept the consequences of this action... and that it does not by any means make it okay to kill)
Samsara and karma are complicated things...
As far as flies are concerned? I let them be... They only live for what? 2-4 days?
Control of indoor infestations of the brown recluse spider can take a long time (6 months or more) and can be difficult because humans have a very low tolerance for this pest, it tends to be widely dispersed within infested buildings, and it seeks secluded sites. Control of spiders, including the brown recluse, is best achieved by following an integrated pest management (IPM) approach. IPM involves using multiple approaches such as preventive measures, exclusion, sanitation, trapping, and chemical treatment when necessary.
Preventing spider bites
Shake out clothing and shoes before getting dressed. Inspect bedding and towels before use. Wear gloves when handling firewood, lumber, and rocks (be sure to inspect the gloves for spiders before putting them on). Remove bedskirts and storage boxes from underneath beds. Move the bed away from the wall. Exercise care when handling cardboard boxes (recluse spiders often are found in the space under folded cardboard flaps).
Exclusion
Install tight-fitting screens on windows and doors; also install door sweeps. Seal or caulk cracks and crevices where spiders can enter the house. Install yellow or sodium vapor light bulbs outdoors since these attract fewer insects for spiders to feed upon. Tape the edges of cardboard boxes to prevent spider entry. Use plastic bags (sealed) to store loose items in the garage, basement, and attic. Sanitation
Remove trash, old boxes, old clothing, wood piles, rock piles, and other unwanted items. Eliminate clutter in closets, basements, attics, garages, and outbuildings. Do not stack wood against the house. Clean up dead insects that the brown recluse spider can feed on.
Non-chemical control
Use sticky traps or glueboards to capture spiders. Dust and vacuum thoroughly to remove spiders, webs, and egg sacs (dispose of the vacuum bag in a container outdoors). Use a rolled up newspaper or fly swatter to kill individual spiders.
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I work in a food environment that sells food both in retail and as prepared food to eat. The preventative measures are a national UK requirement of Health and Safety Food Standards regulations, which apply to any and every establishment involved in the handling, preparation sale and consumption of food. We don't have an excessive or notable problem with flies and pests. But these measures are a legal requirement. We are also in close proximity to other food outlets, and while we ourselves do not experience any great issues, other establishments close by may not be so conscientious, or meticulous in their standards.
Hope this clarification helps....
The reason you don't see so much of it, is because we are hygiene-oriented and extremely clean. We buy and use countless products which kill germs and eliminate bacteria, and we are generally speaking, extremely clean and hygienically-educated people. So, no. I guess your exposure to such events is not high, precisely because of the standards of social awareness, cleanliness and hygiene....
However, in poorer countries, where personal hygiene is compromised by pollution and lack of general resources, the dangers are far higher....
"Experiments in which flies have been allowed to walk over culture media in sterile dishes have resulted in the growth of over 100 bacterial and fungal colonies from bacteria and fungal spores which the fly deposited. Many of these bacteria are harmless to humans but others may cause serious disease. The greatest danger arises when flies are allowed to alight and feed on the faeces of a person suffering from intestinal disease such as typhoid, cholera or polio. Germs or spores of these diseases may thus be carried by the flies to human food. When this is eaten the bacteria can multiply inside the body and so infect the consumer with the disease. Flies are thought to be responsible for the spread of such diseases as those already mentioned above, also diarrhoea, anthrax, eye inflammation and possibly tuberculosis.
Control. The principal methods of control are obvious once the ways in which flies can spread disease are known. Human faeces, particularly if known to be infected, must be disposed of in such a way that flies cannot possibly reach them. Other sources of infection such as manure heaps must not be allowed to accumulate for long periods near houses. Where this cannot be avoided the material should be stored in fly-proof containers. Food for human consumption must not be stored or displayed in such a way as to allow flies to settle on it. The numbers of houseflies should be kept as low as possible by removing decaying organic detritus in which they breed."
firstly, thank you and yes, that did help and answer my questions. in the U.S., we have certain rules and regulations, but nothing pertaining to flies and their disposal (that i am aware of anyways). but now i am curious, what exactly are the suggested disposal methods of flies in the UK?
and secondly... i used to think flies were so harmless, but now you have successfully freaked me out. so thanks for that, haha.
Make it easy on yourself if you want to practice Buddhism with the least amount of obstructions is to follow some of the basic ideas encouraged by the Buddha.
One is to refrain from killing.
That is regardless of whether that creature is useful or disgusting to you. For if you wants to kill something your very far away from developing compassion.
Good point. I have a friend that was visiting, he had a fly crawl on the table and he noticed it and squashed it. What I saw in his face was quite amazing (and you can dis-believe me if you wish), he literally looked to be in pain when he squashed the fly! Of course I kept this to myself, yet it was a very interesting observation. I haven't witnessed such a thing lately, but it makes me wonder that: even if you have a justification for doing such a thing, do you suffer when you do it anyway? Was I in the right place at the right time to see karma in action (pun partly intended)?
Cheers, WK
I believe it but I would think that guy is being over emotional.
I don't like killing anything. I will work hard to help bees, worms, other creatures get out of my house or off my driveway.
I draw the line on mosquitoes and flies. Flies are too hard to catch and release; I'll give C&R a try but will give up quickly. Mosquitoes really mess me up with my allergies so I seek and destroy them in my house.
So my question. Sounds silly I bet..., as far as Karma is concerned can't I just do some good things, along a similar scale of importance, after I whack a fly or mosquito and come out ahead?
Seriously, I forgot the answer to this question. Yes, I'm being lazy or too self-protective with the kinetic insecticide, but can't I make up for it by doing something of similar positive value. For example: moving a stranded worm off my driveway when it rains?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
(. . .) but now i am curious, what exactly are the suggested disposal methods of flies in the UK?
We have ultraviolet light machines with a grille in front of them, which is electrically charged. For reasons unknown to me, flies (and other flying insects) are drawn to the light, and once they make contact with the grille, are quickly electrocuted. I am given to understand, and assured by manufacturers, that death is instant.
and secondly... i used to think flies were so harmless, but now you have successfully freaked me out. so thanks for that, haha.
I'm sure the flies are harmless in that it is not their wilful purpose of deliberate intention to spread such illnesses and diseases, but it's just what they happen to do, unfortunately. As the poem states,
"God in his Wisdom created the fly, But clean forgot to tell us why...."
Intentional or not, they're nasty little bugs, and even if one lands briefly on my sandwich, I'm reluctant to then eat it.
Where did that fly land, before it spotted my meal....? :zombie:
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2010
(. . .) but now i am curious, what exactly are the suggested disposal methods of flies in the UK?
We have ultraviolet light machines with a grille in front of them, which is electrically charged. For reasons unknown to me, flies (and other flying insects) are drawn to the light, and once they make contact with the grille, are quickly electrocuted. I am given to understand, and assured by manufacturers, that death is instant.
and secondly... i used to think flies were so harmless, but now you have successfully freaked me out. so thanks for that, haha.
I'm sure the flies are harmless, in that it is not their wilful purpose or deliberate intention, to spread such illnesses and diseases, but it's just what they happen to do, unfortunately. As the poem states,
"God in his Wisdom created the fly, But clean forgot to tell us why...."
Intentional or not, they're nasty little bugs, and even if one lands briefly on my sandwich, I'm reluctant to then eat it.
Where did that fly land, before it spotted my meal....? :zombie:
Most are completely harmless to us, because either they cannot penetrate our skin, or they're not sufficiently toxic to render any lasting pain or problem....
And footiam, yes please..... try 'multiquoting' in one post... several replies in a row become tedious.
Many thanks!
Thanks for the information on spiders and the advice on 'multiquoting'. I don't really how to go about this 'multiquoting' thing but I am trying this out.
Killing is an action that plants the seeds for negative karma to ripen. Period.
I kill all poisonous spiders (sometimes I'll catch and release them) that are in my house to protect the others that live in my house. (in Colorado, we mostly just have to worry about brown recluses... sometimes black widows)
I accept the negative karma. I would rather take the negative karma than for the others in my house to get bitten. Also... I would rather kill the spider myself and accept the consequences of that action than to wait for another in my house to kill the spider and have that karma ripen on them. [As far as flies are concerned? I let them be... They only live for what? 2-4 days?
To accept the negative karma so that the others are protected sounds noble. In trying to get enlighten, it would be meaningless if we forget the welfare of others.
Non-chemical control
Use sticky traps or glueboards to capture spiders. Dust and vacuum thoroughly to remove spiders, webs, and egg sacs (dispose of the vacuum bag in a container outdoors). Use a rolled up newspaper or fly swatter to kill individual spiders.
The non-chemical methods, like sticky trap and rolled up newspaper may not go well with some people. They kill!
I hope this can end this discussion...
Make it easy on yourself if you want to practice Buddhism with the least amount of obstructions is to follow some of the basic ideas encouraged by the Buddha.
One is to refrain from killing.
That is regardless of whether that creature is useful or disgusting to you. For if you wants to kill something your very far away from developing compassion.
I like your advice, Ch'an but I hope you don't mind if it goes on just because I make it a point to add a comment on each of the response.
Yes but my friend was unaware of this.
Cheers, WK
I suppose he is not mindful too. Ha! Ha!
Please reaffirm or negate what I'm thinking.
I don't like killing anything. I will work hard to help bees, worms, other creatures get out of my house or off my driveway.
I draw the line on mosquitoes and flies. Flies are too hard to catch and release; I'll give C&R a try but will give up quickly. Mosquitoes really mess me up with my allergies so I seek and destroy them in my house.
So my question. Sounds silly I bet..., as far as Karma is concerned can't I just do some good things, along a similar scale of importance, after I whack a fly or mosquito and come out ahead?
Seriously, I forgot the answer to this question. Yes, I'm being lazy or too self-protective with the kinetic insecticide, but can't I make up for it by doing something of similar positive value. For example: moving a stranded worm off my driveway when it rains?
I like the idea of making up for swatting the fly with for instance building a school or a hospital for the poor.
"God in his Wisdom created the fly, But clean forgot to tell us why...."
If someone creats the fly, we would question his Wisdom.
Comments
The monk ignored the assult and returned to his meditation. Soon, however, the scorpion found himself, once more, struggling in the water. And once again, the monk rescued the scorpion, enduring yet another sting to the hand. This happened several times, the monk continuing to rescue the scorpion despite the scorpion's frequent stings.
The man carefully approached the monk and respectfully beseached him. "May I ask, sir, why you continue to help the thankless scorpion, when you know he is going to sting you? Shouldn't you let the scorpion drown to prevent it from hurting you again?"
The monk turned to the man and said, "It is in the scorpion's nature to sting me, and it is in my nature to help him."
in reply to federica about working in the food industry, i'm not sure what type you are doing, but i did work in a restaurant for years. as i recall, we never really had a problem with flies. just the random few, but i mean, we never chased them down or anything. if this is a bigger problem at your work, perhaps you should seek out the way so many flies are entering your work.
i would like someone to prove to me that flies carry disease and show me people who have gotten sick from them. they are honestly some of the least of my worries. they're just so typical... you see them everywhere... i had no idea people freaked out about them so much. gosh, i have enough on my plate without assuming every fly is a disease carrying terrorist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om_mani_padme_hum
I was looking at the wikipedia article (it might change so look now if ya wanna see) on Om Ma Ni Pad Me Hum... and it corresponds to the 6 paramitas of the mahayana. Om purifies the god realm - pride (generosity), Ma purifies the asura realm - jealousy (ethics), Ni purifies the human realm - passion (patience), Pad purifies the animal realm (perseverance/energy), Me purifies the hungry ghost realm (renunciation), Hum purifies the Hell realm - anger (wisdom of emptiness).
The animal realm is ignorance/prejudice. Both our ignorance and the flies. It is purified by perseverance. The deity symbol is equanimity. With persistance and questions we purify ignorance. But we need to develope the other 5 paramitas at the same time.
That is the whole buddhist path practically? And to practice it fully could be your entire practice of your lifetime says my lama.
The mantra also means Om jewel in Lotus Hum or Om path Hum
the path is broken down into Ma Ni or method (ethics/patience) and wisdom (energy and renunciation)....
For a bodhisattva the first 5 paramitas are to become attractive to beings haven conquered pride/jealousy/passion/ignorance/lust. The boddhisattva becomes unstained and attractive to all beings. The final Hum is the wisdom of emptiness in which all the 5 paramitas rest. Anger is converted into clarity which in myth could be 'omniscience' but not same as Christian Deity (I think?)... This wisdom is stabilized on the 10 bhumis of the bodhisattva path and all the methods of compassion (such as ethics) are perfected by the stainless wisdom of emptiness.
My teacher teaches this as openness (Om Hum?) clarity (Lotus) sensitivity (Jewel) I am guessing this... OCS is a mahamudra view of the buddha nature (emptiness) so it isn't at an intellectual level.
That is why it is not just a wiki article but would be the practice of a lifetime. Not as intellectual, but as hearing, contemplation (life), and meditation.
I think it also relates to the 6 chakras...
dream - Om
truth - Ma
empathy - Ni
Will - Pad
Creativity and subconscious - Me
Safety and Life - Hum
[QUOTE]
They are capable of carrying over 100 pathogens, such as typhoid, cholera, Salmonella, bacillary dysentery, tuberculosis, anthrax, ophthalmia, and parasitic worms.
[/QUOTE]
Otherwise, I'd let it be-- I find the buzzing pleasantly melancholic
The preventative measures are a national UK requirement of Health and Safety Food Standards regulations, which apply to any and every establishment involved in the handling, preparation sale and consumption of food.
We don't have an excessive or notable problem with flies and pests. But these measures are a legal requirement.
We are also in close proximity to other food outlets, and while we ourselves do not experience any great issues, other establishments close by may not be so conscientious, or meticulous in their standards.
Hope this clarification helps....
The reason you don't see so much of it, is because we are hygiene-oriented and extremely clean. We buy and use countless products which kill germs and eliminate bacteria, and we are generally speaking, extremely clean and hygienically-educated people.
So, no. I guess your exposure to such events is not high, precisely because of the standards of social awareness, cleanliness and hygiene....
However, in poorer countries, where personal hygiene is compromised by pollution and lack of general resources, the dangers are far higher....
"Experiments in which flies have been allowed to walk over culture media in sterile dishes have resulted in the growth of over 100 bacterial and fungal colonies from bacteria and fungal spores which the fly deposited. Many of these bacteria are harmless to humans but others may cause serious disease. The greatest danger arises when flies are allowed to alight and feed on the faeces of a person suffering from intestinal disease such as typhoid, cholera or polio. Germs or spores of these diseases may thus be carried by the flies to human food. When this is eaten the bacteria can multiply inside the body and so infect the consumer with the disease. Flies are thought to be responsible for the spread of such diseases as those already mentioned above, also diarrhoea, anthrax, eye inflammation and possibly tuberculosis.
Control. The principal methods of control are obvious once the ways in which flies can spread disease are known. Human faeces, particularly if known to be infected, must be disposed of in such a way that flies cannot possibly reach them. Other sources of infection such as manure heaps must not be allowed to accumulate for long periods near houses. Where this cannot be avoided the material should be stored in fly-proof containers.
Food for human consumption must not be stored or displayed in such a way as to allow flies to settle on it. The numbers of houseflies should be kept as low as possible by removing decaying organic detritus in which they breed."
From here.
http://www.biology-resources.com/housefly-01.html
This article may also help...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housefly
I move worms back to the drier soil when it rains too much. I stop and move newts to the other side when they are crossing rural roads.
I say a little prayer of gratitude __to__ the fish or fowl on my plate at dinner when I can't avoid eating it. That's when I don't want to get sick from not getting enough protein, or I don't want to be rude to the person(s) who prepared the dinner.
Thoughts and actions all add up (or subtract) from the Karma Bank. I'm not perfect. Sometimes I have to kill the fly because I'm too tired or in a hurry.
It's just respect for living things. As "gross" as flies are, they are still enormously complicated forms of life that we humans can't and probably never will fully comprehend. Obliterating them should be done with at least a little bit of regard.
Then again, I have an easy life. I have time. I'm not struggling to survive where I'm seeing my own acts of killing as a life or death issue.
Your immune system can handle a few flies doing than but if there are dozens or hundreds of flies your immune system will eventually be overwhelmed. Flies are killers in that regard; health of the person and numbers of flies are determining factors.
Hummm..., perhaps there is there a book we could use on how to interview flies?
Cheers, WK
*yup 3 posts were made as I typed; 2 by Footiam
Footiam, you have 11 in a row on this page alone. Don't you think you are drowning out your very own message by responding in such a manner? Are you aware of the edit button? I mean, you could combine more than one response to a post. You could also combine more than one thought per post.
And I have never understood the need to quote at length just to respond with an off-hand one-liner.
Just a suggestion...and a bit of complaining...
Hell, that kind of post spam can drown out the 2 other posters that happened to be sandwiched!
Most are completely harmless to us, because either they cannot penetrate our skin, or they're not sufficiently toxic to render any lasting pain or problem....
And footiam, yes please..... try 'multiquoting' in one post... several replies in a row become tedious.
Many thanks!
I kill all poisonous spiders (sometimes I'll catch and release them) that are in my house to protect the others that live in my house. (in Colorado, we mostly just have to worry about brown recluses... sometimes black widows)
I accept the negative karma. I would rather take the negative karma than for the others in my house to get bitten. Also... I would rather kill the spider myself and accept the consequences of that action than to wait for another in my house to kill the spider and have that karma ripen on them.
[google brown recluse spider bites, they are horrible (not for the squeamish)]
(Please note, that this mindset may lessen the karma by a slight amount, but I still must accept the consequences of this action... and that it does not by any means make it okay to kill)
Samsara and karma are complicated things...
As far as flies are concerned? I let them be... They only live for what? 2-4 days?
Control of indoor infestations of the brown recluse spider can take a long time (6 months or more) and can be difficult because humans have a very low tolerance for this pest, it tends to be widely dispersed within infested buildings, and it seeks secluded sites. Control of spiders, including the brown recluse, is best achieved by following an integrated pest management (IPM) approach. IPM involves using multiple approaches such as preventive measures, exclusion, sanitation, trapping, and chemical treatment when necessary.
Preventing spider bites
Shake out clothing and shoes before getting dressed.
Inspect bedding and towels before use.
Wear gloves when handling firewood, lumber, and rocks (be sure to inspect the gloves for spiders before putting them on).
Remove bedskirts and storage boxes from underneath beds. Move the bed away from the wall.
Exercise care when handling cardboard boxes (recluse spiders often are found in the space under folded cardboard flaps).
Exclusion
Install tight-fitting screens on windows and doors; also install door sweeps.
Seal or caulk cracks and crevices where spiders can enter the house.
Install yellow or sodium vapor light bulbs outdoors since these attract fewer insects for spiders to feed upon.
Tape the edges of cardboard boxes to prevent spider entry.
Use plastic bags (sealed) to store loose items in the garage, basement, and attic.
Sanitation
Remove trash, old boxes, old clothing, wood piles, rock piles, and other unwanted items.
Eliminate clutter in closets, basements, attics, garages, and outbuildings.
Do not stack wood against the house.
Clean up dead insects that the brown recluse spider can feed on.
Non-chemical control
Use sticky traps or glueboards to capture spiders.
Dust and vacuum thoroughly to remove spiders, webs, and egg sacs (dispose of the vacuum bag in a container outdoors).
Use a rolled up newspaper or fly swatter to kill individual spiders.
firstly, thank you and yes, that did help and answer my questions. in the U.S., we have certain rules and regulations, but nothing pertaining to flies and their disposal (that i am aware of anyways).
but now i am curious, what exactly are the suggested disposal methods of flies in the UK?
and secondly... i used to think flies were so harmless, but now you have successfully freaked me out. so thanks for that, haha.
Make it easy on yourself if you want to practice Buddhism with the least amount of obstructions is to follow some of the basic ideas encouraged by the Buddha.
One is to refrain from killing.
That is regardless of whether that creature is useful or disgusting to you. For if you wants to kill something your very far away from developing compassion.
Cheers, WK
I don't like killing anything. I will work hard to help bees, worms, other creatures get out of my house or off my driveway.
I draw the line on mosquitoes and flies. Flies are too hard to catch and release; I'll give C&R a try but will give up quickly. Mosquitoes really mess me up with my allergies so I seek and destroy them in my house.
So my question. Sounds silly I bet..., as far as Karma is concerned can't I just do some good things, along a similar scale of importance, after I whack a fly or mosquito and come out ahead?
Seriously, I forgot the answer to this question. Yes, I'm being lazy or too self-protective with the kinetic insecticide, but can't I make up for it by doing something of similar positive value. For example: moving a stranded worm off my driveway when it rains?
I am given to understand, and assured by manufacturers, that death is instant. I'm sure the flies are harmless in that it is not their wilful purpose of deliberate intention to spread such illnesses and diseases, but it's just what they happen to do, unfortunately.
As the poem states,
"God in his Wisdom created the fly,
But clean forgot to tell us why...."
Intentional or not, they're nasty little bugs, and even if one lands briefly on my sandwich, I'm reluctant to then eat it.
Where did that fly land, before it spotted my meal....? :zombie:
I am given to understand, and assured by manufacturers, that death is instant. I'm sure the flies are harmless, in that it is not their wilful purpose or deliberate intention, to spread such illnesses and diseases, but it's just what they happen to do, unfortunately.
As the poem states,
"God in his Wisdom created the fly,
But clean forgot to tell us why...."
Intentional or not, they're nasty little bugs, and even if one lands briefly on my sandwich, I'm reluctant to then eat it.
Where did that fly land, before it spotted my meal....? :zombie:
To accept the negative karma so that the others are protected sounds noble. In trying to get enlighten, it would be meaningless if we forget the welfare of others. The non-chemical methods, like sticky trap and rolled up newspaper may not go well with some people. They kill!
I like your advice, Ch'an but I hope you don't mind if it goes on just because I make it a point to add a comment on each of the response. I suppose he is not mindful too. Ha! Ha! I like the idea of making up for swatting the fly with for instance building a school or a hospital for the poor. If someone creats the fly, we would question his Wisdom.