Going without sleep indefinitely?

Kchoo

I have heard it said that the practised meditator can go without sleep, without ill-effects.

If this is true, what makes this possible?

Do they transcend the biological / physical / bodily effects of sleep-deprivation?

Or is this just a figurative description meaning that the aversion/psychological resentment to lack of sleep is removed?

The statement is also not clear on how long this state can go on for - 24 hours? ...72 hours?

SherabDorje

Where did you hear that? Do you have a good source, or did you just hear it somewhere?

hermitwin

I was told that in deep meditation they can enter a state which
is more restful than sleep.

formermonkJohn

bad idea, if anyone is having this actually happen lack of sleep can and almost always will propel you into complete mania then into psychosis and the looney bin, especially if there are intoxicants involved, some people only sleep one hour that is true but they are few and far between, and the're that way all the time, a person not sleeping who normally sleeps 8 hrs, is having a manic or psychotic attack and needs to see a doctor, horrible things can happen in this state, like getting in fights and sent to jail, i should know i have a sleep disorder/manic depressive illness and i really know about this, medicine like trazodone and respiradol are used to treat this and things like lithium, but if your just going through a really excited phase, and your friends and family don't sense anything wrong, your probably ok without meds if your still getting 2-4 hrs sleep, don't push it don't self medicate alcohol or drugs like pot to help you sleep, if you're experiencing suffering caused by not enough sleep talk to a doctor, please

ive stayed awake for up to two weeks at a time off my meds and its isn't pretty, crazy crazy talk and then bam your stuck in the hospital, be careful

Kchoo

SherabDorje: I read it somewhere, have been doing reading research into a lot of meditation guidance / modern Buddhist writings lately. Can't remember which source exactly, sorry - but I remember vividly because the question struck me and I read the phrase over to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding it. It occured to me the info was left out as per my questions.

hermitwin: Yes, something along those lines I think, but is that only psychologically restful, or biologically as well?

former monk John: Er, no, that's definitely not the kind of state of sleeplessness into which I am enquiring... in fact that's the kind of sleep-deprivation ill-effects I'm wondering how the practiced meditators bypass / avoid. Thanks for the input tho.

Cloud

Can you say where you read it? The Pali Canon / Tipitaka scriptures detail the Buddha's life, are quite specific, and show that even he slept for a couple of hours every night. That's a fully-enlightened being... so...

formermonkJohn

i think the meditators that need virtually no sleep are meditating for hours on hours a day, 8 hrs meditation might equal 5 hours sleep, or something like that but 30 minutes meditation isn't going to replace sleep, has anyone heard of serious meditators having to sleep less than before they meditated, i haven't, some people are born that way, little sleep. gandhi supposedly slept only 1-2 hrs. but ive have a friend a non buddhist/meditator whos like that also.

formermonkJohn

I'm a fully "enlightened" couch or computer chair potato(Joke) and I sleep 8-16 hrs a day( no joke) but no i don't think all enlightened beings have little sleep in common, just some. come to think of it maybe I am like that, no sleeper, as without psych meds I won't sleep at all, nada, but it drove me nuts, the buddha never dropped acid, my brain is fried, and I do regret all the drugs i did years ago.

SherabDorje

Kchoo-

If you can't specify where you read it, then it's really tough to answer. If it's from a wingnut meditation site, then, well, you see what I mean- why answer that?

I was once told that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny existed, and that the moon is made of green cheese. I later found out that those things were not so. I know that those are extreme examples, but without the source of the information, it's tough to agree with or refute.

I think Cloud's observation that even the Buddha slept is apt.

formermonkJohn

my pharamacist once told me there actually are people who don't sleep at all, or one hour only, and the're usually workaholics working two or three jobs, maybe there angels?/?/ who knows. but believe me you can go 2 weeks without any sleep and still have energy, and carry on a conversation, albeit a psychotic one much like someone up days on speed, sleep is a blessed gift for an insomniac like me.....

genkaku

I saw a TV show once about people -- not spiritually inclined people, just people -- who literally did not sleep. I cannot cite chapter and verse, sorry. The program focused on the fact that no one is entirely sure of what function sleep fulfills. I do remember that one fellow worked several jobs as a means of filling the time he had... more, it seemed, as a means of relieving potential boredom than in hopes of making a pot of money.

Kchoo

It wasn't a "wingnut" thing.

I wonder if perhaps what they meant was that amongst the benefits of a strong meditation practice is that your required number of hours of sleep can become decreased from your previous baseline requirement.

Any serious meditators noticed an effect?

Also, I am not trying to compare with how much sleep naturally a person might need- everyone is different and has different sleep requirements, even if the average numbers are around about 8 hours per 24 hour cycle.

The mention of Buddha sleeping 1 - 2 hours per night is quite interesting though.

Sabre

Good meditation can certainly decrease the number of hours you need to sleep. After strong meditation I've had days with very little sleep and without any negative side effects. Also since I started meditating I certainly sleep better and wake up better. But even if the mind is rested, the body still needs rest. And meditation sometimes is also hard, it isn't always easy.

So don't set decreasing the number of hours of sleep as a goal of your meditation. I believe the Dalai Lama said he sleeps 9 hours a day and he surely won't be a bad meditator.

Mountains

I don't recommend it if you value your health.... Most people in the western world don't get nearly enough sleep as it is.

hermitwin

Did anyone watch the little buddha on discovery channel? He didnt sleep.
There's an indian monk who goes without food too.

SherabDorje

Do the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles sleep?

formermonkJohn

well i stayed up for 24 hours yesterday typing on this forum much of the time and only got 8 hrs sleep in a 32 hr day, if i start sleeping less and less over the next few days, you will slowly see me making less and less sense, sounding disoriented and delusional till federica steps in and temporarily bans me.

that's how my illness works if i don't take medicine, fortunately i take it and this scenario is only a very small possibility, federica, if i ever start saying i'm the buddha, i live in tibet, and my car can fly, please pull the plug on my posts and pray i see a doctor, sincerely john

Cloud

I don't know about indefinitely, like I mentioned earlier even the Buddha slept some, but I do know from personal experience that meditation can "replace" some sleep time. I used to meditate for an hour or two right before bed, and instead of sleeping 8 hours or whatever, I'd sleep that much less. Meditating is like resting the brain, even if you're being mindful of what's arising and passing. Now my head's a lot more cleared out, a lot more empty, than it used to be and I could probably simply sleep less and still be okay, without meditation as a factor.

Vincenzi

I have always interpreted the "don't move from this tree until free from suffering" to include meditation in the night instead of sleep (with a very small total of hours sleeping).

I think it is possible, but for just 1 night or less than a week.

Jeffrey

Why would anyone not want to sleep? I totally understand the original posters search for knowledge, but I don't understand where they hope to go with that knowledge. It is a good question though.

Anything I say is related to my own circumstance when I have not slept. Because I have observed that my mind gets paranoid when I do not sleep, I try to lay down when I know that the next morning I will need to have a mind that has let go into sleep. Dreamed my dreams. And gotten up.

Last night I dreamed of the good feeling I would have if I found yellow Bic shaving things instead of the green ones my mother bought. I had been dsiturbance that the greens would clog with hair. And my firend in college showed me how to shave in the shower and I had always used yellow. So I think this expressed my discovering my own masculinity and not being surrounded by my mother and the friction that sometimes occurs, though I love her dearly. I also always have dreams that I need to go back to school and get a degree for a new life, and find my ex. In reality I wake up to my new situation gradually. As Suzuki Roshi said when you are out of meditation the world all of the sudden appears.

I ahve never met a meditation teacher who told me not to sleep. Osho talks a little bit about possiblities, but he made the mistake of not having practioners complete any kind of preparation before coming to his camp. So I think he would make a mess like dancing on the edge with all his disciples with love and beconing to the moon. I think I give Osho an A - for yoga (parrotting my teacher), but a B or B+ on the curve for Buddhism.

Well this was fun writing. I think we need sleep.

taiyaki

i've heard of old enlightened masters going into samadhi for a couple hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours.
they would be energetic as if they had their whole 8 hours of sleep but they only had like two hours of samadhi.

when we are in deep sleep from what I've researched...is the same as samadhi.

the buddha also is pictured laying on his side when he slept. but it was noted by ananda that the buddha never slept but shut his eyes.

interesting to think about.

Cloud

I sleep because I'd go insane otherwise. You wouldn't want me on the forum 24/7. I need to take a break, not even going to ever attempt to go without sleep, even if I could. Too many hours in the day in my current situation, the only thing I have to do from here is get on forums, seriously.

Vincenzi

(...)

when we are in deep sleep from what I've researched...is the same as samadhi.

(...)

it is "in the same wavelenght" but are not the same.

hvbson

with deep meditation, y can enter a restful statein which y are dreaming. Please be practical, find out the solutions ,so your mind would be peaceful whenever. after mediation y become yourself again, shouldn't

Daozen

I don't recommend it if you value your health.... Most people in the western world don't get nearly enough sleep as it is.

Exactly.

Starduster

A sign of sleep deprivation is a feeling of having spiderwebs covering your face.

Been there, done that, and its okay. I have often used self-hypnosis to get by when there just hasn't been enough time to sleep. 2 hours of hypnosis = 8 hours sleep in terms of rest, and the same is probably true of meditation. That can come in handy.

So I would say go ahead and substitute for sleep all you want to, but if you start to find yourself wiping spider webs off of your face its time to get some sleep.

Zayl

Sleep is who we are, if someone says that by meditating they can go without sleep then all they have done is perfect the way of sleeping while maintaining a perfect pose, that is all. Sleep is needed by the human body very badly. Without it it starts off as slight delirium (which can feel like you have plenty of energy) followed by slight hallucinations on the edges of your vision, such as you think you see something move but when you look it is gone.

It keeps getting worse and worse, to the point where you begin to lose focus on time and space. You forget where you are, when it is, what you were doing, and what the basic functions of items are... for example getting thirsty and getting a glass but then stalling and not remembering that you need to put a liquid in the glass. This is followed by a sudden and very deep and brooding depression that locks you up. And these symptoms don't come and go, oh no they just stack on top of each other and you keep getting worse and worse.

Sleep deprivation is not to be trifled with, you will eventually pass out as your body refuses to go on and shuts down. But if you don't... well lets just say going insane is a way out of the torment.

Yacababy

I am one of those people who physically cannot sleep. I HAVE TO tale sleeping pills prescribed to me in order to sleep. I have gone days without sleep before when I had no insurance and it DOES drive you mad. You enter a hyper manic state where you begin to hear things, see things... Words and thoughts cease to make sense and are no longer understandable. It's scary. While meditation is in a way rejuvenating I do not advise going without sleep. The human brain needs sleep to reset, if you will, and to function like a well maintained computer. Not an analogy I enjoy but one that makes sense. So, enjoy your naps and restful nights. You may not be active but you certainly won't go mad.
With love, Jen

Kchoo

Hm, lots of interesting perspective and advice.

Thanks a lot everyone! Will look into googling related info to find out more.

Much appreciation

Ric

Going without sleep forever is impossible. I dont think you can pass 3-4 days before you start micro-sleeping and then there comes a point where you do fall asleep. I also believe there is an illness that can prevent you from going to sleep...and guess what...you end up dieing.

Sanmayce

Hi to all,

First, I want to share some info about myself:
a Bulgarian old boy interested in practical religions (especially Laoism), nothing special, he-he. The teachings of Buddha are precious but I didn't see a single buddhist ever, I mean the theory is as good as a fairy tale but when it comes to practice all talks are not backed up by thoughts let alone deeds. The unity of word-thought-deed is broken. That is why the real faith (the core of all teachings) is so rare and is masked by plain ugly hypocrisy. Now down to the thread:

I have read all above posts regarding no-sleep and you must know something from second hand (I know this very real human being capable to no-eat, no-sleep totally):
- the human beings are capable of living without need of sleep;
- the human beings are capable of living without need of food.

There is no need of any samadhi, meditation or special techniques at all, it is a BUILT-IN human capability BUT LOCKED, don't ask me why - it is not only a mystery but also a question holding a dark answer.

In short it is NOT a magical or spiritual hack, it is natural - think thrice how retarded and afar from the NATURE we are.
Have more faith not only superficial knowledge of this-and-that.

Regards

Ric

Hi to all,

First, I want to share some info about myself:
a Bulgarian old boy interested in practical religions (especially Laoism), nothing special, he-he. The teachings of Buddha are precious but I didn't see a single buddhist ever, I mean the theory is as good as a fairy tale but when it comes to practice all talks are not backed up by thoughts let alone deeds. The unity of word-thought-deed is broken. That is why the real faith (the core of all teachings) is so rare and is masked by plain ugly hypocrisy. Now down to the thread:

I have read all above posts regarding no-sleep and you must know something from second hand (I know this very real human being capable to no-eat, no-sleep totally):
- the human beings are capable of living without need of sleep;
- the human beings are capable of living without need of food.

There is no need of any samadhi, meditation or special techniques at all, it is a BUILT-IN human capability BUT LOCKED, don't ask me why - it is not only a mystery but also a question holding a dark answer.

In short it is NOT a magical or spiritual hack, it is natural - think thrice how retarded and afar from the NATURE we are.
Have more faith not only superficial knowledge of this-and-that.

Regards

This is why i dont believe in personal experiences !

LesC

It is medically impossible to go without sleep. While a subject may THINK they are not sleeping, their brain is shutting down for microseconds. The brain needs sleep, and it will get that rest however it has to, to not sleep would result in death.

Dr. Les

Sanmayce

Hi Dr. Les,

in my view you are right for maybe 7,000,000,000+ people but surely you do not know this very person (the COMMON definition of sleep doesnt't apply to her for sure) I mentioned before.

As far as I understand you talk about neurons, but if we make a comparison with computers the state of idleness is not explicitly needed it is forced outwardly.

After all the Buddha state is constant awareness, you agree?

Regards

NOTaGangsta

You'll go blind without sleeping.

Phoenix

Well, technically it's not possible, you do need sleep. However, there is a thing called Unihemispheric Slow-wave Sleep in which you close one eye and let one half of your brain sleep while the other half is still alert. It's found in some animals, but I've not heard of humans doing this, but it's possible I suppose. However, I think you'd lose control of half of your body as well.... :scratch:

person

Supposedly Lama Zopa Rinpoche doesn't sleep. I can't find any source to verify this its just what I heard, from some monks saying how hard it was to be his attendent staying up all night, when I attended a 10 day retreat at Kopan monastery in Nepal plus stories from others who've been there.

LesC

Hi Dr. Les,


After all the Buddha state is constant awareness, you agree?

Regards

Don't confuse the philosophical with the physiological. The state of constant awareness does not mean you are physically awake 24/7. It means that when you are physically awake (which on average we are for around 16 hours a day give or take) then we are to be mindful (or aware) of every moment.

Namasté

aura

Many years ago when my infant son was hospitalized in critical condition I spent 13 days, 24 hours a day, at his bedside, nursing him and breastfeeding him. In those 13 days and nights I sat upright in meditation, stood in meditation, and walked in meditation, with brief bathroom and hospital cafeteria breaks. For the first 2 days and nights all I ever had to sit down on was a high metal laboratory bar stool, until someone kindly brought me a hard wooden rocking chair so that I would at least have something with a back to lean against. Meditation was how I survived. I do not think that it would have been possible to survive otherwise.
In the end, the hospital recorded my son as the only infant in the entire history of that hospital not only to have survived, but surprisingly to have also gained weight and physically thrived in such critical condition, and he is fine now. The hospital staff did not understand how that was possible, as such a thing had never been witnessed before in the history of the hospital, and so documented the case. Meditation made that possible.
I would not ever advise extended lack of sleep as a practice. One's feet, ankles, and legs tend to swell from the relentless force of gravity on them, from never being horizontal, in spite of endless walking and stretching to try to relieve it. Such trials do occur in life, and one's infant in critical condition is a harsh meditation retreat from the world of ordinary life indeed, but such intense trials are trials, not to be pursued as practice.