Is eating non-vegetarian food allowed?

misecmisc1 · October 2012

Hi All,

Just wanted to know from you all - is there any sutta which indicates that Buddha taught we should not eat non-vegetarian food like chicken, meat of goat etc and we should try to survive on vegetarian food only? Please suggest.

I had seen written in Bhagwad Geeta that we should avoid eating non-vegetarian food and should eat only vegetarian food. So I have left eating non-vegetarian food for the last 1 year. But for the last 2 - 3 days, a thought is arising in my mind that may be it is ok to eat non-vegetarian food and I am trying to avoid eating non-vegetarian food without any purpose. So thought of raising this thread. So please let me know your views about it.

Dakini · October 2012

It's a matter of interpretation. He didn't say don't eat meat. He said avoid causing suffering to sentient beings. So you can see how some people interpret that to mean we shouldn't consume the flesh of sentient beings. But he also said to eat whatever is offered. So some view that as an indirect way of saying, "Don't create a demand for sentient beings to be slaughtered, but if someone offers you food, don't refuse it."

It's a matter of conscience for each practitioner to answer for themselves, I think.

RebeccaS · October 2012

The Buddha ate meat and that's good enough for me.

Sincerely,
Just ate bacon

Citta · October 2012

Dakini said:
It's a matter of interpretation. He didn't say
don't eat meat. He said avoid causing suffering to sentient beings. So you can see how some people interpret that to mean we shouldn't consume the flesh of sentient beings. But he also said to eat whatever is offered. So some view that as an indirect way of saying, "Don't create a demand for sentient beings to be slaughtered, but if someone offers you food, don't refuse it."

It's a matter of conscience for each practitioner to answer for themselves, I think.

Absolutely. I would also question the idea that in Buddhadharma things are " allowed" or not allowed. We are called to be functioning adults from the start, and to make our own decisions. I have quoted this before but Satre says we are " condemned to be free "...much as we would at times love someone to tell us what to do.

Daozen · October 2012

As I understand it, Buddha ate meat, but only when offered to him as alms.

Chinese Buddhists are often vegetarian, but overall, like many aspects of Buddhism, there are no firm rules, because there is no central governing body with the authority to tell every Buddhist what to do (unlike, say, the Catholic Church).

As Buddhists, I think we do have a duty to consider the causes and effects of our actions, and the suffering we may cause or decrease. By eating meat (especially factory farmed meat) we undoubtedly are contributing to animal and human suffering.

The solution doesn't HAVE to be "don't eat any meat" (although that is a perfectly reasonable - and healthy - option), but it could be:

* Eat only organic, free-range meats
* Eat less meat (meat-free mondays, etc)

Namaste

lobster · October 2012

Most people are unmindful.
Animals suffer. That is OK because they are yummy . . . It is a sort of theoretical compassion for living beings . . .
You should also remember you are not going to eat your way to the far shore. You have to make your choice based on health, budget, compassion, circumstances. Those I live with eat less meat but neither of us are vegetarian. We eat organic, free range . . . that is something. We eat fish a lot (that is my fetish).
As soon as insect protein become available, may move more to that . . .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2011/sep/16/insects-arachnids-future-food

federica · October 2012

RebeccaS said:
The Buddha ate meat and that's good enough for me.

Sincerely,
Just ate bacon

Where did you get that information, @RebeccaS?

seeker242 · October 2012

It depends on whether or not you are reading Theravada scripture like in the Pali Canon, or Mahayana scriptures like in the Nirvana sutra, Angulimaliya sutra or Brama Net sutra. The Theravada scriptures permit it for monks on alms rounds, under certain circumstances. The Mahayana sutras above expressly forbid it and state that a Buddha does not eat meat. For many Theravada monks, it is permitted under certain circumstances, for many Mahayana monks, it is a precepts violation and forbidden. Personally, I don't think Gautama Buddha's advice on eating meat is relevant today for modern people. Unless you happen to be a monk or person who only eats what is donated to them. For someone who purchases their own food, Gautama Buddha's advice on eating meat is largely irrelevant. Having a choice of what to purchase, is a completely different situation than having whatever kind of food donated to you. The fact that Gautama Buddha ate meat is irrelevant. He was a begging monk, not a consumer making intentional choices at a supermarket. A vegetarian diet is the most compassionate diet according to Mahayana sutras.

lobster · October 2012

A vegetarian diet is the most compassionate diet according to Mahayana sutras.

Exactly.

Not meditating 8 hours a day or living on nettles that have died of natural causes?

OK join the club, move along . . .

misecmisc1 · October 2012

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies.

RebeccaS said:
The Buddha ate meat and that's good enough for me.

@RebeccaS: i think this may not be correct. May be before Buddha became Awake, then he would have taken meat - but after Awakening, I do not think Buddha would have taken meat - simply because there was no need for him to take non-veg food for supporting his body, taking into consideration the facts that he was Awakened and would have no attachment towards maintenance of his body and also by the physic powers he would have attained, he would have been able to maintain his body by those powers, if he wished so.

Well, bringing the discussion back to the main topic - should we eat non-veg or not? The question is because of the question - does eating non-veg generates bad karma for us? My understanding of Buddha's teachings says that intention determines karma. So this leads to the intention behind eating non-veg.

Now organic meat, which some of you have suggested above, i do not know what is organic meat. So can someone tell me what is organic meat?

Just to clarify - the non-veg food which i am referring is the normal non-veg food, which we get in India, which is prepared from flesh of chicken, fish, goat etc - which is obtained after these animals are killed.

Usually what happens in my case is - a thought comes to my mind - let me have chicken today. Now i do not think that a chicken should be killed so that I may have it in dinner today. May be a friend asks me to come to his house for dinner and asks me what would i like to have in dinner - then if i say that i would like to have chicken or fish - then he would make that for me. So in the end, i will eat chicken or fish. But someone would have killed that chicken or fish, and then later it was cooked and served to me. So the question is - even though I did not say to kill a chicken or fish, my intention of having a chicken or fish in dinner and then finally eating chicken in dinner - would it lead to bad karma for me, or , since the chicken would have already been killed, then eating them is just eating dead matter and so would not cause bad karma?

So can someone tell me if there is a Sutta in Tipitaka, where Buddha suggested that we should avoid non-veg food - or - till we not order a chicken to be killed for meat and just use already existing meat in shops or directly eating chicken dishes in restaurants, till that stage eating non-veg is ok - from the viewpoint of karma? Please suggest.

Citta · October 2012

Ah but that is not the thrust of the issue misecmisc..the onus is on those who would impose a specific diet on others to show that the Buddha advocated a specific diet..and the plain fact is he did not. He gave clear guidelines to the monastic community about the timing of meals, and the impact of overeating on meditaion practice, but as to the issue of the content of meals the Buddha of the Pali Canon is remarkably silent.

federica · October 2012

yes, @misecmisc1 - the decision of whether to eat meat or not, basically comes down to your own conclusions.
Nobody - not even the Buddha - can, or will decide that for you.

seeker242 · October 2012

misecmisc1 said:

So can someone tell me if there is a Sutta in Tipitaka, where Buddha suggested that we should avoid non-veg food - or - till we not order a chicken to be killed for meat and just use already existing meat in shops or directly eating chicken dishes in restaurants, till that stage eating non-veg is ok - from the viewpoint of karma? Please suggest.

I have never seen such a sutta in the Tipitaka. When he spoke of what kind of food is proper to eat, he was speaking to monks most of the time, if not all of the time. So he did not speak of what kind of food was proper to purchase at a shop or restaurant, since monks did not purchase things, etc.

There are a couple of stories where laypeople purchased meat from the market and then gave it to monks and the Buddha ate it and permitted the monks to eat it. But he generally did not address the karmic consequences of ordering it or purchasing it. I would guess that if you went to someones home and they happened to give you chicken to eat. The Buddha would consider that karma neutral, just as long as it was not "seen, heard or suspected" by you, that the chicken was killed just for you and your meal. Now, if your friend had chickens in a coop and said "Come over tonight, I will slaughter a chicken for us and we will eat dinner", this would definitely not be permitted.

Citta · October 2012

Again we see an element introduced that is peripheral to the discussion...there is a debate to be had concerning the karmic implications of meat eating..But that does not mean that as far as social interactions are concerned it is " allowed" or otherwise.
Where are the food police that will enforce its NOT being " allowed" ?

Cinorjer · October 2012

The Buddha is supposed to have eaten meat. It is certain that none of his teachings included prohibitions against eating meat. His last meal translates as "Pig's Delight" and only later vegetarian monks tried to claim that means a truffle dish instead of the obvious. However, here is a cut and paste of the information easily found on the internet about what the Buddha's diet consisted of:

The Aṅguttara Nikāya says that the Buddha was once served sūkaramaṁsa with jujube fruit. This term can be translated with certainty as sūkara = pig, maṁsa = meat or flesh (A.III,49). In another place it comments that a man sent his servant to the market to buy meat so it could be prepared and offered to the Buddha (A.IV,187). Yet another text describes how a group of people ‘boiled porridge and rice, made soup and minced meat’ (maṁsani kottenti) while prepearing a feast for the Buddha and his monks (Vin.I,239). On another occasion some men slaughtered a cow, cooked it and then one of them gave ‘the best cuts of the cooked meat’ (maṁse pakke varamamamsani) to a nun who subsequently dressed the beef and gave it to the Buddha (Vin.III,208). One of the criticisms Jainism directed towards the Buddha was that he ate meat. ‘Many Jains went through the town, through the main roads and side streets, the alleys and the lanes, waving their arms and shouting, “ The general Siha has this very day slaughtered a large creature to feed to the monk Gotama and he is going to eat it knowing that it was slaughtered specifically for him.” ‘(A.IV,187).

There is nothing at all wrong with being a vegetarian for moral or even health reasons. Some monks are, and some are not vegetarian according to their tradition. But it's certainly not required.

Dakini · October 2012

seeker242 said:
a Buddha does not eat meat.

But THE Buddha did eat meat. In fact, he is said to have died of eating some spoiled pork he received as a guest in someone's home, IIRC. And Mahayana monks eat meat, in Tantric rituals at least, if not on other occasions. But the OP's question as I understood it wasn't referring to monastics, but to lay people. Lay Buddhists in Asia eat meat. The Dalai Lama's family raised and slaughtered their own sheep. Apparently, it's not prohibited to lay practitioners, but may be prohibited to monastics. Except the DL has always eaten meat, until relatively recently. Monks in Mongolia eat meat. So...whatever.

edit: oh, oops, I just saw Cinorjer's post. Great post, very informative. Thx, @Cinorjer.

seeker242 · October 2012

Chapter 7 of the Nirvana Sutra (translated by Kosho Yamamoto and edited by Dr. Tony Page) states:

One who eats meat kills the seed of great compassion... O Kasyapa! I, from now on, tell my disciples to refrain from eating any kind of meat. O Kasyapa! When one eats meat, this gives out the smell of meat while one is walking, standing, sitting or reclining. People smell this and become fearful. This is as when one comes near a lion. One sees and smells the lion, and fear arises. O good man! When one eats garlic, the dirty smell is unbearable. Other people notice it. They smell the bad smell. They leave that person and go away. Even from far off, people hate to see such a person. They will not come near him. It is the same with one who eats meat. It is a similar situation with all people who, on smelling the meat, become afraid and entertain the thought of death. All living things in the water, on land and in the sky desert such a person and run away. They say that this person is their enemy. Hence the Bodhisattva does not eat meat.

The Angulimaliya Sutra quotes a dialogue between Buddha and Manjusri on meat eating:

Mañjuśrī asked, “Do Buddhas not eat meat because of the tathāgata-garbha ?”

The Blessed One replied, “Mañjuśrī, that is so. There are no beings who have not been one’s mother, who have not been one’s sister through generations of wandering in beginningless and endless saṃsāra. Even one who is a dog has been one’s father, for the world of living beings is like a dancer. Therefore, one’s own flesh and the flesh of another are a single flesh, so Buddhas do not eat meat.
“Moreover, Mañjuśrī, the dhātu of all beings is the dharmadhātu, so Buddhas do not eat meat because they would be eating the flesh of one single dhātu.”

It depends on which scriptures you are reading.

zither · October 2012

Long as you dont personally kill it yes.

zither · October 2012

seeker242 Could you possibly enlighten me as to how the tathāgata-garbha differs from the dharmadhātu.Thanks .

misecmisc1 · October 2012

@Cinorjer/All: Thanks for your replies.

@seeker242: Great reply.

It has been something like a year, since i have avoided non-vegetarian food after i read in Bhagwad Geeta that Lord Krishna taught not to eat non-vegetarian food and only eat vegetarian food. The reasoning given there was - though it is basically Hinduism related, so most of you will not like to hear it - but still telling if someone may like to know the reason behind it - the reasoning is - as per Lord Krishna, there are 3 Gunas or properties, which are attributed to all human bodies. Every human body has all these 3 properties, but in varying percentages and the highest percentage decided the most dominant character of a person. The 3 Gunas or properties are Sattava, Rajas and Tamas. Sattva reffering to purity and spirituality, Rajas referring to activeness in the material world for material possessions, Tamas referring to the evil qualities like ill-will, jealousy etc. All persons have all these 3 qualities but in different percentages. So eating non-veg food adds to Tamas or Tamsic property and eating veg food adds to Sattava property. Till the Tamas property is totally eradicated and Rajas totally subdued, leaving only 100% Sattava property, the final goal of human birth is difficult to achieve.

Seems like i got some support for continuing to not eat non-vegetarian food from Buddha's teachings also.

My family seems to be pushing me for eating non-veg food these days, since they have found out that i have left eating non-veg food from some months now. It is not the case that everybody in my family eats non-veg, only my father eats non-veg. But my mother and my wife are totally veg. They are insisting me to take non-veg food because they have noticed that i have become slightly weak, as per them, though i am ok from my perspective. The reason, which i think has lead to reduction in some fat in my body is - till last year, i was taking both beer/alcohol and non-veg and since last year, i have tried avoiding all these things, so i think the fat which gets accumulated in my body due to taking bear/alcoholic drinks and non-veg food like chicken, has reduced in my body. Now my family does not know about this beer/alcoholic drinks thing. So they think, after my leaving non-veg food my body is become slightly thin. But i try to convince them saying i will take non-veg food, when i will feel its need. But for the last 2 to 3 days, a thought kept on hindering in my mind, that i am trying to avoid non-veg food - so does it serve any purpose, or am i behaving foolish by taking only veg food and trying to avoid non-veg food - from the viewpoint of karma. So i raised this thread.

Also after raising this thread, i was searching on the internet for material supporting - whether eating veg or non-veg is good - and i came across a web URL having a pdf file, which i downloaded and found very useful and it supports eating veg food. So attaching the file in this post, so that you all may also read it, if you are interested in it. I do not know whether all the facts mentioned in the below pdf file are correct. But i found the below pdf file interesting, so sharing with you all. Please do let me know if some information, specifically related to heath and diseases, you know which is not correctly mentioned in the below file. This will help us to gain correct understanding about some type of food and diseases, and will help improve our diet.

zombiegirl · October 2012

RebeccaS said:
The Buddha ate meat and that's good enough for me.

Sincerely,
Just ate bacon

The Buddha, and monks following his example, eat meat that is given to them. The tradition is that monks cannot choose their own food and survive on what is given. I hope you were just joking with the above comment because the underlying message is not exactly the same thing.

vinlyn · October 2012

I think Rebecca has a valid point.

In Thailand, when the monks go on their alms rounds, or when people take food to monks at their temple, meat is often (in fact, usually) included.

If the Supreme Sangha of Thailand publicly stated that their is a problem with monks eating meat (no need to go over the reason/reasons in this post), then most people would stop giving meat. Fruits and veggies are readily available along the street, not just in formal markets. And, fruits and veggies are far less expensive for everyday Thais than meant. And trust, the Thais are a rather obedient people...they would follow...particularly if the Royal family subtly made the point by doing so themselves.

But yet, after centuries, not once has the sangha ever made that polite suggestion to the people...and remember, in Thailand, monks are supreme, only below the King.

Now, I'm not saying anything about what you or anyone else should do.

zombiegirl · October 2012

@vinlyn I wonder, do you know much about meat production in Thailand? I wonder if they have more humane standards as opposed to us in the US. For example, where I live, there's a lot of Muslims so halal meat can be found pretty easily. I worked in a Lebanese restaurant for a quick minute and was told that halal meat is slaughtered in a specific way that includes using an extremely sharp knife with an effective killing method from behind so that the animal doesn't know it is coming and suffers the least amount possible.

vinlyn · October 2012

Actually I can answer that question, particularly in the context you are asking it. Since Buddhists do not want to kill themselves, the vast majority of butchers are Muslim, with some non-Buddhist Chinese.

zombiegirl · October 2012

Ha. Interesting. Thanks for responding.

vinlyn · October 2012

...but...interestingly...vendors of meat may very well be Thai Buddhist.

how · October 2012

This subject is delicious as a "Karma dodge" word buffet that demonstrates the power of our taste preferences.

FoibleFull · October 2012

Buddhists are advised to not kill any sentient/living being for any reason.
But Buddhism is pragmatic. Meat-eating is allowed, whether it is alms that you have been given, or that is all there is to eat (Tibetan Buddhists often will eat meat ... but meat, barley, milk, and butter are their dietary staples), or if the doctor tells you that you need to be eating meat.

My sister was a vegetarian for over 30 years, but had thyroid cancer (which is implicated from eating too much soy/tofu), and then developed severe food allergies to both dairy and gluten. She found that she could not get enough protein in, in a day, and she started to become very weak. Reluctantly, she began eating seafood and chicken, and is doing well.
She is a Buddhist, btw, with both a Tibetan tulku and a Theravadan bhikkhu as her teachers.

And the Dalai Lama was advised to eat meat by his doctors, so he now eats meat too. For that matter, so does my own teacher, a Tibetan monk of over 40 years who is also a Geshe.

RebeccaS · October 2012

zombiegirl said:

RebeccaS said:
The Buddha ate meat and that's good enough for me.

Sincerely,
Just ate bacon
The Buddha, and monks following his example, eat meat that is given to them. The tradition is that monks cannot choose their own food and survive on what is given. I hope you were just joking with the above comment because the underlying message is not exactly the same thing.

I'm half joking but half not. The Buddha did eat meat and that is good enough for me. I would think twice about killing my own meat, but I think that if I had to then I would.

If eating meat was so terrible then I personally think the Buddha would flat out refuse it even if it meant he starved.

zither · October 2012

I once put a piece of KFC in a monks bowl in Thailand ,and you should have seen his face light up.

robot · October 2012

Why go to KFC in Thailand?

Inc88 · October 2012

Correct me if i am wrong, besides suffering caused by eating meat and the ideal of dont refuse the food that was giving you, if one chooses to be vegetarian isn't that creating a desire for only vegetarian food and an aversion to meat. Isn't the ideal not to have either desire nor aversion?

misecmisc1 · October 2012

Inc88 said:
Correct me if i am wrong, besides suffering caused by eating meat and the ideal of dont refuse the food that was giving you, if one chooses to be vegetarian isn't that creating a desire for only vegetarian food and an aversion to meat. Isn't the ideal not to have either desire nor aversion?

@Inc88: Good logic, but if we go by above logic, then we should also not try to avoid alcoholic drinks, avoid adultry, avoid smoking - because then as per the above logic, it will be aversion towards these things.

The point is what is the implication of eating non-veg food from the viewpoint of karma - or is karma just a made up story to make people refrain from doing slightly bad things also?

Does Awakening not need the balancing out of negative karma? If it does not, then what is the point of not indulging in telling lies, alcohol, smoking, non-veg food and taking delight in these things, as the negative karma does not need to be balanced out for Awakening to happen? Then, is Awakening a process of using manual will-force to create a desired state of mind, where we become unattached to all phenonmenon and we let go of all craving for both becoming and non-becoming in our mind?

How did Angulimala the robber who had killed 999 people, attained Arhantship in his life- was his negative karma did not come in the way of his becoming Awakened - or is this a merely madeup story?

Hi All,
i know i am deviating from the main subject here - but somehow all these thoughts came to me just now, so thought of writing it up here. Please share your views on the above things. Thanks in advance.

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