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Buddhism and Christianity
Sabby
Explorer
Can a Christian become ordained as a Buddhist monk, would there be any conflict. Buddha and Jesus Christ shared a lot of common ground in their teachings. If one believes in a supreme over soul or God and still follows all of Buddha's teachings, the 4 NTs and the 8 FP and all of that would there be any conflict arrising at any point in a monastic life?
Also, if there already has been a thread dedicated to this topic I would appreciate if i could be linked!
Also, if there already has been a thread dedicated to this topic I would appreciate if i could be linked!
3
Comments
The concepts of emptiness and dependent origination more or less negate the existence of an omnipotent god. If everything has to "inter-be" (to borrow Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh's language) with everything else, there's no possibility of an independent entity known as God. God would have to come from somewhere, which isn't the case in the Christian cosmology.
I assume that people who ordain do so to be able to live as a walking expression of deep understanding of Buddha's teachings. If you internally harbour a belief that is quite fundamentally inconsistent with core Buddhist teachings, that's ultimately up to you, but it's definitely going to be a hindrance.
It is one thing for a lay person to be able to believe whatever he or she wants -- in whatever mix he or she believes to be appropriate. It is quite another thing to be ordained, which to me sets a certain standard of what one believes in and expresses.
"No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddhas clearly show the way."
The Dhammapada, 165.
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains, sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines, but these are not a secure kind of refuge."
The Dhammapada, 188
But I think anyone who took either persuasion seriously might run into trouble, eg.: Buddhism makes no promises; Christianity does; Buddhism makes no threats; Christianity does; Buddhism is not about something else; there are a lot of something else's in Christianity; except where it is corrupt, the practice of Buddhism seeks no converts; Christianity mandates conversions; dropping dead is not a prerequisite in actualizing or realizing Buddhism's potential....
I intend no insult here and I am not trying to start another Christian/Buddhist pissing match. There are a number of people who claim to have woven Buddhism and Christianity into a single cloth and I wouldn't contradict them. But as a practical matter -- a matter of actual-factual practice -- it sounds like a rocky road to me ... unless, as I say, anyone were willing to be satisfied by a belief system.
However, I can see where it would be difficult. You cannot become a monk I don't think without taking refuge vows and precepts (and then monk vows) and once you take them you are committing to being a Buddhist. So, I'm not sure how it would work to declare yourself a Buddhist, but a Christian too, in so far as ordaining of course. Like @vinlyn said for lay people it is quite different.
D.T. Suzuki stated the following about God in "Indian Mahayana Buddhism":
"If God is the ultimate ground of all things, he must be emptiness itself. When he is at all determined in either way as good or bad, straight or crooked, pure or impure, he submits himself to the principle of relativity, that is he ceases to be God, but a god who is like ourselves mortal and suffers."
You don't have to "denounce Christianity" or other religions, but being accepted as a monk in the school I am familiar with requires the heiarchy to be convinced you'll be satisfied with the role and have a special calling, even. I'm not certain saying you want to be both Christian and a Buddhist monk would satisfy them. Taking refuge in the Buddha means taking refuge in the Buddha.
You may find this interesting:
Although Buddhism is generally non-theistic, it is possible to be a Buddhist theist. At its core, even though it has temples, monks, ritual, etc., Buddhism is a way of living. A spiritual philosophy, if you will. One that, to me, is applicable to most other religions and philosophies.
So if one wishes to follow the teachings of Jesus as well as Buddha, then go on ahead.
When I took my refuge vows, my teacher made it very clear that in doing so we were choosing to be Buddhist. That we could choose not to at any point of course, but in taking this step we were confirming that we had investigated Buddha's teachings enough to know it was the right path for us, and that we wanted to commit more strongly to that path.
I'd still like to know more about the question. Is it just a hypothetical? If not I'd like to know what leads a person to want to ordain in a tradition while still maintaining identity as something else as well.
If the question was "can a person who believes in what Jesus taught, ordain as a Buddhist monk?" then the answer might be different. In most places identifying as a Christian means far more than simply believing in what Jesus taught.
I see your point. I guess it would depend on the tradition, but it is possible to be a Christian and be ordained as a Buddhist monk. I've heard of Christians who 100% believe in their faith, who also ordained as Zen monks.
Buddha taught the truth, nothing more, nothing less.
of course there is a conflict.
At best, I could imagine learning from other religious traditions, being influenced by them, or perhaps incorporating aspects of another tradition. There are differences between Buddhism and Christianity that can't be reconciled without glossing over those differences. D.T. Suzuki thought highly of Christianity... as represented by Eckhart, but you know, he was declared a heretic by the Catholic church...
@DaftChris thanks for that information, I did not know that about the Zen tradition. Interesting.
Hell, even the fundamental idea of an omnipotent, omnipresent God is incompatible.
In all seriousness though, how would one reconcile the concept of God (as Christians view God) with Buddhism? If this is a topic that has been beaten to death, I apologize.
And, you may be correct. Or totally wrong.
And I may be correct. Or totally wrong.
Neither of us has proof on our side.
A Buddhist would have to focus on Christian teachings to be Christian monk. Healthy cross fertilisation occurs all the time.
As a meditation on Dukkha, I like to contemplate the 'stations of the cross' mosaics at my local buddhist/catholic church/temple. However I am just a glutton for eternal damnation . . .
If practicing as a Buddhist monk, one does not say Christian grace, The Lord's Prayer or Jesus prayer etc. For this one becomes a Christian nun. Incidentally a man can become a nun but first he has to change gender. Easier to become a monk, if you have no trans-gender requirements as the Bishop said to the synod . . .
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100047249/church-of-england-bishops-will-be-allowed-to-become-nuns-according-to-synod-source/
I think you knew the answer to this really?
But there are many strains of Christianity.
As the Dalai Lama noted the God of Thomas Merton was not different from the Trikaya.
And was characterised by Sunyata.
Merton was not alone. There is a whole contemplative tradition in Christianity which has always been there.
It is found among the monks of Mount Athos.
It is found in the cell of Mother Julian.
It is found in 14th century works such as " The Cloud Of Unknowing ".
It is found in living breathing teachers like Thomas Keating and Lawrence Freeman.
It is as far from the anthropomorphic Christianity of your sunday school with its anglo-saxon Jesus and threats and promises, as Dzogchen is from Buddhist amulets and the folk rituals of Thailand.
Its just hard to see past the 14 year old to glimpse it.
An individual "knowing" there is no eternal Hell would be similar to knowing that the Sun will come up tomorrow. Hypothetically, we don't really know if the Sun will come up tomorrow. The earth could be destroyed by some cosmic blast that resulted from a collapsing star, but we don't know that. For all intents and purposes we say we "know" something because of past experience, from model-making in the mind, through logic, etc.
Even recognizing that we know things is an entirely baseless assumption, but one of the few we must assume. Everything we know *could* be a lie. But simply because something has a chance of being true or not true doesn't mean we should recognize it as a truly valid idea. Because we'd say we "know" something is or isn't true doesn't mean we are actually asserting that it does for sure without a shadow of a doubt. Considering the idea of an eternal Hell has no evidence to support it (whether direct or indirect), has no natural indication showing that it would exist, has no evidence that past life experiences of individuals who went to Hell were a reality, etc - then it'd be safe to assume that Hell *doesn't* exist. Yes, it could, but why even humor the idea if there'd be no rational reason to? Unless we are to say that we shouldn't base our outlook on reality on reason/evidence - but I'd argue that is kind of silly.
So all the same discussion points apply equally in Buddhism.
There are outer and inner forms of all paths.
I think the biggest problem is what you'd mean by "being Christian" because the way I was raised in the Evangelical church, being Christian is as much a commitment and devotion to Christ as any Buddhist monk is supposed to show toward Buddha. You don't just believe Christ is your savior; you accept Christ as your Lord and work to spread the Gospel and joining the church, the "body of Christ" is as important as a Buddhist joining a sangha. This type of Christianity is very exclusive.
Just to clear things up a bit, I should have worded my post a bit better, but I do not identify myself as a christian through and through. I do agree with all of Jesus' teachings, that i feel relate to buddhism so much. I feel that Jesus was telling us the story of god and Buddha was showing as the path to god (although this is extremely general and there is much more to it). Also, when i mentioned a belief in a God, that is more of a tricky one. I guess it is one of those things that is flawed through conditioning and human language. I equate consciousness as god, not inherently good or bad because i do not know there really is such a thing, I see god or consciousness as no less or more a part of us. when i hear the terms, heaven and hell and kingdom of god and many other christian related terms i know that they are states of consciousness, as Jesus' and Buddha both taught.
Also, if one ordains as a monk, does that mean they areidentified as a buddhist?
Other brands of monk are available.
@invincible_summer that is why I asked specifically what the posted meant by their question. Because there is a big difference between saying "I understand and follow the teachings of Jesus" and "I am a Christian" because a lot more goes into being a Christian than just believing what Jesus taught.
@TheEccentric Did Jesus really teach that or is that just what the church and the bible says? I don't have every single quote from Jesus on hand but he stressed far more loving kindness and compassion for ALL people than he did judgement. Jesus wasn't even a Christian. Once again I think your hatred for all things Christian is clouding your ability to really understand. I was like that for a time, too. But Jesus had a lot of good things to say and they shouldn't be confused with what the church interprets for their own benefit.
That aside, I think you have a seriously false premise above. I've lived something like 23,177 days, and in 23,177 of those days the sun has risen, while in 0 of those days the sun has not risen.
On the other hand, I have not died within my scope of memory (or for that matter been reborn), so I have no history on which to base the likelihood of hell existing.
The only thing I would point out is that when you say, "There don't seem to be that many Christians interested in exploring other religions for some reason", I would say the same is true of Buddhists who have been Buddhists their whole lives, as opposed to the vast majority of people on this forum who are converts to Buddhism.
Also, just to add a point, I get from some of these posts that Christianity is dogmatic. And it certainly can be. However, so can Buddhism. Some schools of Buddhism are very clear with their vision of hell and are not shy about condemning others.
youtube.com/watch?v=FAATrz9-JBc
youtube.com/watch?v=uz9FMoxjCEM
It is of course possible to find wisdom in and be influenced by other religions without actually trying to become part of that religion. There's nothing wrong with being a Buddhist that thinks Jesus had some good advise and it worthy of respect. The religion of Christianity in it's different forms may not be as neat a fit (though it also depends on what branch of Christianity you are considering). Religions usually have some overlap with each other, since they are all trying to answer the fundemental questions and concerns of mankind, but they are not interchangeable either. I'm not saying definitely don't try combining the two, but that it could end up being quite the balancing act. Ordination could throw a whole nother layer of difficulty on the situation. That doesn't surprise me, since elaborate descriptions of what was going to happen after you died is a very Christian thing, but not so much a Jewish one. Judaism is more here and now focused.
Crete has a fabulous collection of frescos in over 800 churches depicting hell.
Typically they would feature on the West wall or behind the alter on the right to Christ's left, reminding worshippers of the consequence of sin either during or after the sermon.
But, I realize that you are fundamentalist Buddhist. So that's all you can see. Okay. No problem.