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What do you think is the karma of a Buddhist monk who preaches hatred and violence?

hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
in Buddhism Today
This monk from Burma was imprisoned for inciting violence.
Does he know anything about Buddha's teachings?

http://prodos.thinkertothinker.com/anti-islam-burmese-monk-saydaw-wirathu/

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Walk a mile in his shoes, then decide.
    I see the interviewer states:
    it’s been very difficult to find many extensive quotes by him or excerpts from his speeches or any clear evidence that he condones violence. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t, but some evidence would be helpful.
    So what's with YOUR thread title?
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    I think he is going to Hell realm. This is just my opinion though.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    And also, karma doesnt mean 'if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you".... It doesnt work like that unfortunitely...

    Take jimmy saville for instance...
    He went through his whole celebrity life doing horrible, hurtful things, and got away with it scot free! He died before it all Came out!

    What we do will always have an 'effect', somewhere in the world ... But karma doesnt garantee 'what comes around go around'....

    #i wish it did! There would be more peace in the world if karma really existed!
    TheEccentric
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Karma really does exist. Just not in the way you have seriously misconstrued it.
    I suggest you study up some....
    Chaz
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    federica said:

    Karma really does exist. Just not in the way you have seriously misconstrued it.
    I suggest you study up some....

    Read my post 'properly' please!
    zenmyste said:

    karma doesnt mean 'if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you"

    #i wish it did! There would be more peace in the world if karma really existed!

    I dont have to study anything thanks!

    Im stating what karma is NOT!!
    And no, karma (in the way 'others' believe it is, does NOT exist!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Your post didn't make it clear. fine, fair enough.

    :whatever:
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2013
    zenmyste said:

    And also, karma doesnt mean 'if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you".... It doesnt work like that unfortunitely...

    Take jimmy saville for instance...
    He went through his whole celebrity life doing horrible, hurtful things, and got away with it scot free! He died before it all Came out!

    Unless he is in a hell or animal realm right now, then he didn't get away with anything! There is no such thing as "scot free". All actions have consequences for the one who acts, always. Just because someone can not see them or discern them, does not mean they don't exist or won't exist. Also, the idea of karma is not meant to be restricted to only one lifetime anyway. :)

  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited July 2013
    seeker242 said:

    zenmyste said:

    And also, karma doesnt mean 'if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you".... It doesnt work like that unfortunitely...

    Take jimmy saville for instance...
    He went through his whole celebrity life doing horrible, hurtful things, and got away with it scot free! He died before it all Came out!

    Unless he is in a hell or animal realm right now, then he didn't get away with anything! There is no such thing as "scot free". All actions have consequences for the one who acts, always. Just because someone can not see them or discern them, does not mean they don't exist or won't exist. Also, the idea of karma is not meant to be restricted to only one lifetime anyway. :)

    Oh..... Ok!!!! Yeh see i dont believe in the realm concept! I just believe when we die, we die!

    But neither of us knows the truth do we so no point having a debate about it on here! If the realms exist then hopefully he is in hell! But if not then he 'has' got away with it scot free!

    Until we die, we wont know if these realms exist or not! Thanks for your imput though! X
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    That's probably why the Buddha said the precise working out of the results of kamma are unconjecturable. :)
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    hermitwin said:

    This monk from Burma was imprisoned for inciting violence.
    Does he know anything about Buddha's teachings?

    http://prodos.thinkertothinker.com/anti-islam-burmese-monk-saydaw-wirathu/

    After Death, After the Break up of the Body this person creates the causes to be reborn in the 3 lower realms for an immeasurably long time.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    If a monk teaches hatred and violence then their students will be known as fools. and they, a teacher of fools.

    Jimmy suffers as others suffer from his unskillful ways if he knew it or not. If one of us suffers, we all suffer because we are all a part of the same thing.

    My honest opinion.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Guys just been in hell, roasting Buddhist saints, heretics and marshmallows. The devils are fed up with me and as usual have thrown me out for not believing in them . . . :rarr:
    Beej
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited July 2013
    ourself said:

    If a monk teaches hatred and violence then their students will be known as fools. and they, a teacher of fools.

    Jimmy suffers as others suffer from his unskillful ways if he knew it or not. If one of us suffers, we all suffer because we are all a part of the same thing.

    My honest opinion.

    Thanks for your honest opinion!

    I obviously disagree but still respect your opinion!

    I just cannot see (physically or mentally) how i would suffer just because you suffer...

    When jimmy did his evil acts - he would have been loving it, the thrill, excitment, and pleasure of it! (Physically and mentally)

    The children would have felt , confusion, pain, sadness, emptyness, (physically and mentally)

    How does jimmy suffer?
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited July 2013
    my thinking says: regarding karma or law of cause-and-effect, if every effect was ever seen immediately and clearly due to their action's result, then either the current world would be lived by all beings only morally, or there would be no being in Samsara currently. But karma runs in non-linear mode, due to the present getting conditioned both by past actions' and present action's combined result - so when and how much the karmic effect of which past or present action will be felt, cannot be thought. also, since there are things which cannot be perceived by 5 physical senses and cannot be thought by mind, so ignorance remains and so wisdom (to see things as just they are) is needed.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2146000,00.html
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    When we see the jimmys or the monk and hope they are punished or try to decide their fate, it is like throwing mud at them. We make solid our impressions and in our anger throw "hell" at them. The mud doesn't reach them, it sticks to our own window and makes us cloudy. Why wish or project a hell state for others? Samsara is thick enough without our help.
    ChazBeejpersonEvenThird
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    That's probably why the Buddha said the precise working out of the results of kamma are unconjecturable. :)

    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    It seems to me he is *already* living in the hell realm.

    @zenmyste Just a quick comment, when you accentuate your sentences with a lot of !!!! it makes you come across as loud and aggressive. I actually cringe when I read your posts because they come across as yelling and that makes it a distraction to your actual words.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    karasti said:

    It seems to me he is *already* living in the hell realm.

    @zenmyste Just a quick comment, when you accentuate your sentences with a lot of !!!! it makes you come across as loud and aggressive. I actually cringe when I read your posts because they come across as yelling and that makes it a distraction to your actual words.

    Dont read too much into it. Its only gonna cause you the suffering. Im sorry you feel that way about my posts. I have always used "!!!!!" all my life, even in my text messages! Its just habit now!

    Sorry again! X
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

    My mind remembers this as "causes madness." When I have looked deeply at karma, it seemed to me to be like looking for a break in a circle, and so i got more and more powerful magnifying glasses, and obsessed. Then I laughed at my madness and let it go. Perhaps there are no breaks, so it is a waste of awareness to look? Said differently, perhaps when we look close at karma we are actually unintentionally supporting the notion of an abiding self?
    BeejEvenThird
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    #i wish it did

    Hash tags work on NB now?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    aMatt said:

    vinlyn said:


    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

    My mind remembers this as "causes madness." When I have looked deeply at karma, it seemed to me to be like looking for a break in a circle, and so i got more and more powerful magnifying glasses, and obsessed. Then I laughed at my madness and let it go. Perhaps there are no breaks, so it is a waste of awareness to look? Said differently, perhaps when we look close at karma we are actually unintentionally supporting the notion of an abiding self?
    I have no problem with someone saying if you try to figure karma out, you'll be stymied. I have a problem with someone saying that if you try to figure karma out, you'll go mad. Did you go mad? You don't sound like a madman. :p

    Going back to the original post, I think if you have a monk preaching hate and violence, there is going to be negative karma. The idea that we can figure out exactly what that negative karma may lead to...well, we can't. We can conjecture, but that is just an interesting discussion that doesn't lead to fact. But, then again, most of our threads don't lead to fact.

    Jeffrey
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    federica said:

    Karma really does exist. Just not in the way you have seriously misconstrued it.
    I suggest you study up some....

    I have and in the book I read it said that heavy negative actions cause you to be born in the lower realms.

    caz
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:

    That's probably why the Buddha said the precise working out of the results of kamma are unconjecturable. :)

    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

    It's not a cop-out at all....

    'Similar' yes.
    Not the same.



    The saying 'God works in mysterious ways' is generally unanswerable to a Christian because they prefer there to be a mystery around God. There are times when one Christian's 'God's Mysterious ways' is another's 'Well, actually it's obvious'...and can apply to all manner of different subjects.

    The Buddha gave a limit of 4 different matters which he advised were unconjecturable. Just 4.
    I know there are only four, because he said as much.
    And we repeatedly debate them here.
    Which is why it seems some discussions keep being aired and re-aired, pedalled out and recycled.... because they're the main 4 the Buddha told us it was pointless, airing.
    MaryAnne
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:

    That's probably why the Buddha said the precise working out of the results of kamma are unconjecturable. :)

    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

    I am guessing you are reffering to Christianity/Judaism, which is loaded with cop-outs. But in terms of Buddhism claiming that its unconjectureable or unquantifiable, i dont see it as a cop out as much as it is admitting incompleteness in expression, without giving defined power to an unseen entity. Buddhism says that we cant directly quantify karma in terms of expression with the tools we have, but we can experience it. But maybe thats the same thing as the "mystery" of God... i dont know.

    What i do know is that the bible starts off by claiming that EVERYTHING IS GOOD, and then it spends hundreds pages trying to express that idea in detail, but never quite hitting the nail on the head. If its ALL GOOD, why all the fuss then? Because perception is a fickle and expression is limited. So it is for Buddhists, as well. We lack the tools to explain, but have all the tools to experience, and somewhere in that experience is a dose of karmic rendering, no matter how subtle or profound it may be. But if you start the story with: ITS ALL GOOD, shouldnt you also end the story there? So karma isnt really the judge of good or bad.... its the function of cause and effect. Good or bad are value judgements that have nothing to do with karma, because its already ALL GOOD. So the appropriate questions and answers are: What are the effects of this monk's actions? Even that becomes impossible to definitvely quantify..... and if you try to do so, more suffering for you.

    And thats what the Buddha warned against: Dont suffer this line of thought!!!!!!!
    personFullCircle
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I have no problem with someone saying if you try to figure karma out, you'll be stymied. I have a problem with someone saying that if you try to figure karma out, you'll go mad. Did you go mad? You don't sound like a madman. :p

    Going back to the original post, I think if you have a monk preaching hate and violence, there is going to be negative karma. The idea that we can figure out exactly what that negative karma may lead to...well, we can't. We can conjecture, but that is just an interesting discussion that doesn't lead to fact. But, then again, most of our threads don't lead to fact.

    Lol, well said. I don't sound like a madman, but even a dog can type meow into a keyboard. I didn't mean to imply that someone might "go mad" but perhaps such actions "generate cloudiness" as we look for the "chunk" of karma.

    you illustrate that well when you notice most threads don't lead to truth. The threads are the truth!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    federica said:

    ...
    And we repeatedly debate them here.
    ...

    Yes, we do, and I don't believe any of us have gone mad.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:

    That's probably why the Buddha said the precise working out of the results of kamma are unconjecturable. :)

    The whole concept of things being unconjecturable is similar to "God works in mysterious ways".

    How convenient for both religions to have similar cop-outs.

    How can it not be unconjecturable when you don't have a telescope that can see into the future or beyond death? I don't see how it can be!

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited July 2013
    seeker242 said:



    How can it not be unconjecturable when you don't have a telescope that can see into the future or beyond death? I don't see how it can be!

    I don't see the need to dwell on this, but go look up the definition of conjecture.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    federica said:

    ...
    And we repeatedly debate them here.
    ...

    Yes, we do, and I don't believe any of us have gone mad.
    I don't think the Buddha was referring to the insane kind of madness, I think he was referring to the irritating type of madness. He also mentions vexation.

    I see a lot of irritation and vexation when unconjecturables are discussed.

    Well, less so now we stamp on them more quickly.

    ;)

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    hermitwin said:

    This monk from Burma was imprisoned for inciting violence.
    Does he know anything about Buddha's teachings?

    Did the Christian crusaders know anything about Jesus' teachings? "Onward, Christian soldiers", goes the hymn. I shudder to think I sang that in church as a little kid.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:



    How can it not be unconjecturable when you don't have a telescope that can see into the future or beyond death? I don't see how it can be!

    I don't see the need to dwell on this, but go look up the definition of conjecture.

    I did! And?

  • ArthurbodhiArthurbodhi Mars Veteran
    The Buddha was very specific that if we do really wrong things nothing good come with it. That is the close to an answer that I could give. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:



    How can it not be unconjecturable when you don't have a telescope that can see into the future or beyond death? I don't see how it can be!

    I don't see the need to dwell on this, but go look up the definition of conjecture.

    I did! And?

    Jeez...just never mind.

  • jlljll Veteran
    It seems he instigate others to go after the muslims.
    It is xenophobia and racism at its worst.
    In a western country, he will be imprisoned for hate crimes.
    Unfortunately, Buddhist monks are revered in Burma, so he is able
    to influence many people.
    His karma will bring him more hatred and suffering.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited July 2013
    What do you think is the karma of a Buddhist monk who preaches hatred and violence?

    I know that he is going further and further away from the Buddhist goal of liberation from suffering.
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    I think Time's journalist, Hannah Beech, distorted everything Buddhist Monk U Wira Thu said and stands for. Why should I believe anything Time magazine says? Names like Shaved Head Nazi, Neo Nazi, Burmese Bin Laden were given to U Wira Thu by Muslims on Facebook.



  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2013
    What country is the speaker above from?

    How are illegal imigrants causing terrorism?
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    "What we work to do is to safeguard our religion and nationality. Time and its writer went against journalistic codes of conduct. We will step up moves to protect religion and nationality," said legal adviser Aye Paing of the Theravada Buddhism Dhamma Network.

    Activist Aung Myaing of the Theravada Buddhism Dhamma Network said: "The Myanmar government should sue Time magazine. Buddhism has peace and equanimity as its guiding principle. Various organisations in Myanmar have strongly opposed the accusation issued in Time magazine."
  • SeaOfTranquilitySeaOfTranquility Veteran
    "What do you think is the karma of a Buddhist monk who preaches hatred and violence?"

    Bad.

    Karma is the results of previous actions. It cannot explain everything that happens to us. In fact trying to figure out the karmic reason for each thing that occurs is a hopeless waste of time. However, karma can explain, in general, why we behave as we behave.

    Our behavior is conditioned by that which has come before. Our thoughts are our karma. Our likes and dislikes. All these likes and dislikes drive us from action to action, creating more karma, more causes for future results.

    Out of this liking and disliking comes craving, which forges the grasping that conditions the next link in the karmic chain.
    It is the clear recognition of the feeling of liking and disliking, without reaction, that cuts the karmic chain. Gradually we get so that we can watch liking and disliking with clarity. This clear seeing may be experienced as pleasant although the object noticed is unpleasant.
    When awareness is strong, grasping is weak. When grasping is weakened, volition toward unwholesome actions has less intensity.
    Jeffrey
  • blu3reeblu3ree Veteran
    cause and effect = karma
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Cause = Karma (Conscious and volitional, deliberate action.)
    Effect = Vipaka.
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    Sort of like Colonel Sanders coming back as a chicken. :coffee:
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Is it possible that this is his Karma? I worry more about my own karma than anyone else's at this point.
    There was an interview with him that I read this morning, and cannot find now. This covers some of it though.
    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/11/19395152-buddhist-bin-laden-or-man-of-peace-monk-leads-anti-muslim-campaign-in-myanmar?lite

    This one also is sort of a rebuttal against the Time article
    http://thediplomat.com/asean-beat/2013/06/25/ashin-wirathu-the-monk-behind-burmas-buddhist-terror/
  • BlondelBlondel Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Although the Time article doesn't directly link Buddhism with terrorism—the cover clearly suggests that Buddhism is now wearing the face of terror. The article by Hannah Beech says things like this: "Radical Buddhism is thriving in other parts of Asia too"; "Buddhist blood is boiling in Burma, also known as Myanmar–and plenty of Muslim blood is being spilled"; "Buddhist mobs have targeted members of the minority faith"; "Buddhist nationalist groups with links to high-ranking officialdom have gained prominence, with monks helping orchestrate the destruction of Muslim and Christian property"; Buddhists and their holy men are not immune to politics and, on occasion, the lure of sectarian chauvinism"; "machete-wielding Buddhist hordes attacked Rohingya villages"; "It’s a sentiment the Burmese bin Laden would endorse."

    Nothing like good old American yellow journalism. Time hasn't lost its touch in all these years.
    MaryAnne
  • jlljll Veteran
    are you saying that muslims are not being persecuted
    and killed in burma?
    Blondel said:

    Although the Time article doesn't directly link Buddhism with terrorism—the cover clearly suggests that Buddhism is now wearing the face of terror. The article by Hannah Beech says things like this: "Radical Buddhism is thriving in other parts of Asia too"; "Buddhist blood is boiling in Burma, also known as Myanmar–and plenty of Muslim blood is being spilled"; "Buddhist mobs have targeted members of the minority faith"; "Buddhist nationalist groups with links to high-ranking officialdom have gained prominence, with monks helping orchestrate the destruction of Muslim and Christian property"; Buddhists and their holy men are not immune to politics and, on occasion, the lure of sectarian chauvinism"; "machete-wielding Buddhist hordes attacked Rohingya villages"; "It’s a sentiment the Burmese bin Laden would endorse."

    Nothing like good old American yellow journalism. Time hasn't lost its touch in all these years.

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