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Is pessimism indispensable?
betaboy
Veteran
As a Buddhist, it would be better to embrace pessimism - to see sorrow in worldly joys, despair in the midst of hope, and so on. This attitude alone would dilute our attachment to the world, to our desires also. A positive attitude will keep us attached to the world.
Unfortunately, the world encourages an optimistic attitude - and Buddhists, secular as well as religious, fall for such line of thinking, thereby reducing Buddhism to a new age, 'feel good' religion.
Truth is, Buddhism is all about meditating on the darker side of life - even something as grotesque as meditating on a corpse is found in Buddhism. All this negative stuff is encouraged so that people would drop their attachment. Never once did the Buddha say, 'be positive, be cheerful' etc. New age gurus say that to make money out of gullible people.
Unfortunately, the world encourages an optimistic attitude - and Buddhists, secular as well as religious, fall for such line of thinking, thereby reducing Buddhism to a new age, 'feel good' religion.
Truth is, Buddhism is all about meditating on the darker side of life - even something as grotesque as meditating on a corpse is found in Buddhism. All this negative stuff is encouraged so that people would drop their attachment. Never once did the Buddha say, 'be positive, be cheerful' etc. New age gurus say that to make money out of gullible people.
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Comments
If you have cultivated Buddha-nature you will not be pessimistic but realistic or wise, you will not become conflicted or negative because you know this or that can occur. Yes you may experience feelings of unpleasantness, but we are humans and not robots. There is a line where being pessimistic ends and being wise starts, find it.
There is no pessimism there. Your misinterpretation is frankly, staggering, all things considered.
If you take it as all life is dukkha, then it's pessimistic.
But I don't see where it says that. When my neighbor took me out for a Christmas lunch a couple of days ago, that was not Dukkha.
When I watched the fireworks on the Fourth Of July, that was not Dukkha.
When I received a warm email from a long lost friend, that was not Dukkha.
Life is a mix.
The word Dukkha has connections to the description of a ride experienced on a cart with a wonky wheel. Up-and-down, unsettled, funny at times (I remember riding in a hay cart on a bumpy countryside track, with my cousins; we could barely stop laughing, we were so tossed about, to us, it was immense fun!)
so your 'pessimistic' description is about as far removed from the truth as I am from those giggly childhood days....
There IS no background.
He stated he came to show there is Dukkha, and how to transcend Dukkha. he never said anything about 'getting out of it'......
Read this, and thus learn something, please....
http://medicinebuddhasangha.org/teachings/arima_1.html
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda02.htm
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths
How can you have got this so wrong, with all this information to hand?
@betaboy -- Is there ANYTHING in this world, in your world, that actually makes you feel HAPPY, smile, and feel a certain level of JOY? Anything??
Please name three (3) things that make you feel happy.... seriously.... I'm asking sincerely. The last time I asked you a direct question similar to this, you just flat out ignored me. I'm hoping you'll answer this time...
@federica so glad you commented I guess we all have issues of varying degrees but I certainly know when I'm feeling happy, I now understand being attached/addicted to a particular feeling/thing will eventually end in tears but I have always said happiness comes in moments ...and we've got to be awake so we don't miss those moments.
@betaboy...do you live somewhere you could have a nice walk, or maybe volunteer for helping people, I love charity shops they always need help, you could meet some really interesting people there and maybe get a few bargains too...just an idea
Imagine how much is lost especially in the romantic Italian style ...just
as an example (I dont speak italian btw but once had an italian boyfriend who told me that...or maybe he was just being italian!
That is simply a lovely way of remembering the word dukkha a good way to remember to laugh it off.., one person's tragedy, anothers comedy.
Half empty or half full - there is a glass and a volume of water.
I'm not sure that attachment to the 'world' is the issue as much as the propensity to attach.
This inclination, I think, is beyond simply being optimistic or pessimistic and tackling it takes more than declarations and judgements.
Who are the gullible people and are you also included in that group?
What I take from much of the Buddhist teachings is that one should live In The Moment.
Do not dwell on the past, nor hang your hopes on the future...but live in the moment - Now - and savor it for what it is; good OR bad.
There is a natural 'balance' to life. Sorrow tempered with happiness, pain tempered with well being; night gives way to day; etc etc. Two sides to every coin. Yin & Yang. The Middle Way.
Personally, if I have to choose a side I'm more willing to lean into... I'll choose the optimistic side, every time.
Rainbows and Pixie Dust-
PollyAnna*
because he saw we could change things. A hopeful attitude and high aspiration are common results of human kindness. I think Buddha was an optimist. He looked at the suffering in the world and decided he could do something to improve things. Then he pursued the path of improvement. A down in the mouth attitude doesn't help people rise above their delusion, greed and hate. A positive uplifting aspiration is an important part of the Bodhi way. There is a lot of suffering and we can do something about it.
Best, Dennis
I'm standing for (riding with) ( in a car) with the person !Regardless of pros/cons
I'm with that approach/view.
I'm Pro Pollyanna !
:clap: lololololol
You are THINKING, that is all. Isn't that a relief? You are projecting YOUR native pessimism onto the Buddadharma and seeing only what you expect to see.
If you want to defend your pinhole THINKING by using the mysterious 'we' to back it up with an imaginary crowd, that's OK, in other words, it's no 'sin'. All that will happen is you'll stay exactly as pessimistic and confused as you are right now. People get defensive because they cherish their 'self' over letting it go in the face of knowledge that puts that 'self' on the shelf. Your choice
Gassho
::: crickets :::
So. I guess the answer to my question - and the reaction to being put in the spotlight for the answer - is to slink off and open up yet another Debbie Downer, pessimistic, life sucks thread... ?
So why are you ignoring me? Is it because I'm a woman? (an Old woman, to boot!)
Is it because I won't just pat your hand and tsk tsk at you while trying to convince you that life IS wonderful?
Or is it because I won't agree to wallow in your dooms day vision of Life in general?
Tell me what makes you tick, Mus... I mean betaboy.
Attachment to pleasure is overcome with reflection on suffering
Attachment to peace is overcome by love
The Dukkha of Dukkha. This means it can always get worse. If you have a tooth ache it doesn't mean that you can't in addition have a falling out with somebody. And if that happens it doesn't mean you will not also get a sickness.
The Dukkha of change. We gain what we don't want and lose what we want.
The Dukkha of being compound. I don't understand this one too much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
Why do you keep running interference for people who are being asked questions or asked to explain themselves? Are you their lawyer? ;-)
Could you point out quotations from posts to explain your question of my 'running interference'? Also explain what you mean by 'running interference'. I have never heard that word. I don't honestly know at this time what you mean by your post.
I do think people have right to be a downer. If that's what you mean by interference. Think how it feels to be a downer. Inside it doesn't feel good. If someone is too much down DON'T post in the thread and let those of us who don't mind depressing threads try and help the OP.
As far as I know the mods don't mind if someone is depressed. If they are too crazy they will be dealt with, but @betaboy is NOT off the deep end. He just has some sadness about the world I guess.
Thanks.
several times when I or someone else (it's not always me, I'm not saying it is) asks or says something (to someone) that YOU find .... i don't know... too harsh, too pointed, too whatever, you seem to jump in and start explaining from their point of view.
You just did it AGAIN in the post above. I asked betaboy a direct, specific question, regarding his feelings about things, and there you are... explaining/ telling me how it feels to be a downer, and how I should back off. That's all I'm saying.
I know you mean well, and I think you're a real sweetheart, I really do.
But Please let people speak for themselves when they are asked something directly or commented to specifically.
If I misunderstood your post(s) in this situation, I apologize. Honest. But that doesn't change the fact it has happened several times before just the same...
I stuck up for @betaboy and I will continue to do similar unless @Federica or the like tells me not to. And of course if @betaboy doesn't want me to.
I am everybody on the forums bodyguard. That's what "i got your back" means. If someone is misunderstanding the dharma and calling you names such as 'Debie Downer' I would also have your back. It's not personal I just don't agree with your speech.
So I don't really care if you shame me by calling me 'body guard'. That's immature, imho.
Please let people speak for themselves when they are asked something directly or commented to specifically.
I will either flag or post to someone who is calling others names.
I think AB conversations should be by PM, incidentally.
I take it neither of you want to spend Christmas behind bars and away from 'home' - right?
Jeffrey, quit trying to defend what in this case is the indefensible. It's not your job to constantly rally to a cry which has not been given And yeah, Federica's telling you to quit.
MaryAnne, quit baiting and being argumentative. Something you seem to be in the habit of doing. There is no legal obligation to respond, and kindly refrain from leaping to judgement when a requested response is not forthcoming.
(Chances are it would have made you argue more, anyway.... :rolleyes: )
If you're going to spat in public, that's how I'm going to deal with it.