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As a doctor who has worked in the NHS for god knows how long - I understand where you are coming from.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Ah, but when the border between self and other is seen through, suffering and the logic of compassion is much easier to understand.
I don't see how this relates to what we were discussing.
Unless I misunderstood, you were saying contrary to the o/p in that the heart of meditation is to understand suffering but wherever there is suffering, there is self.
If I ever entered a state of nothingness, I don't think I'd be able to remember it. I have entered a state where there seems to be no distinction between observer and observed but that's more of a realisation of togetherness.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think the self is to be transcended not abolished.
Who would tie my shoes?
Precisely!
The 'self' is a damn useful gizmo. Too bad it is, in my experience, also the major source of my day to day suffering.
A few days ago when meditating (this will be hard to explain), awareness of 'self' was inevitably accompanied by physical sensations I usually attribute to 'fear' (generalized). 'Self' thoughts were accompanied by contraction in my chest, or zings of adrenaline, or other mildly unpleasant physical sensations. When I say sense of 'self' I mean thoughts that had content of difficult interaction with someone, unpleasant things I keep putting off that dog me in meditation, etc.
What was really cool, and this only happened the once, is that sense of 'self' kind of . . . cracked loose, and the immediate image was like a tooth coming loose. Still attached but wiggly. Let me tell you what relief that is.
The basic dissatisfaction of 'self' is what drove me into committed practice after years of dilettantism. For some reason, and I'm grateful for whatever the reason, just experiencing mySELF became intolerable, a complete misery. Two and a half years ago, it became acute and I said fuck it and started drinking again. A year ago I quit drinking, and about halfway through the year that despair hit me again. I can't think of another way to describe it but some existential despair of just being . . . me.
So (back to topic ) my relationship to my-'self' is becoming much more compassionate, and much more 'realistic' as to what the little ole self is meant to be. Like tying shoes, driving to work, utilizing my nursing abilities to care for patients, changing lightbulbs, reading this forum . . . and lots more.
I see the 'self' a lot like the old fashioned 'ego'. The true self?
No idea! But like many, I sense it. What I am sensing, again, no idea.
Gassho
Yeah... Even duality is not such a bad thing when we see it as our tool and not the other way around.
Buddha nature is the very first teaching in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation which is the Lam Ring text for Kagyu. That essentially blows out of the water your idea that openness, clarity, and sensitivity are not appropriate for beginners. The very first teaching is Buddha nature.
I know this, because I worked with Kagyu teachings for a decade. I just don't find them very useful. How is the teaching on Buddha nature useful to your practice? I accept that Buddha nature is a name for the experience of enlightened mind, but I have no experience of that. I couldn't tell you what it is, and I know people who can't say despite having practiced in the Kagyu tradition for decades. I expect the term might be more useful after the attainment of stream entry, when there's accidental experience of enlightened mind, and that's how the Mahayana teachings were originally intended.
Meanwhile, lots of people are running around proclaiming their Buddha nature, that there is nothing more to do in this life, that everything is empty, etc., etc., and simply using this as an excuse for the accepting the defilements they're afflicted by. People take the language of the dharma and use it to justify laziness, greed and hostility. It's like the dark side of that proverb about wisdom often being hard to distinguish from not giving a damn. It's tragic, because when you get back to basics the path is always clear, and yields much greater rewards.
Unless I misunderstood, you were saying contrary to the o/p in that the heart of meditation is to understand suffering but wherever there is suffering, there is self.
There is actually suffering which does not involve a self, and that is what I was pointing to in that discussion:
...the perception of arising phenomena is itself a form of suffering. It's a mix of contact, name-and-form and consciousness, in the framework of dependent origination.
If I ever entered a state of nothingness, I don't think I'd be able to remember it. I have entered a state where there seems to be no distinction between observer and observed but that's more of a realisation of togetherness.
In the state of nothingness there is awareness that nothing is perceived. You can remember this. I think (can't find the cite now) I've read that in the subsequent state, which is sometimes called "the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception" you can't remember it when you exit it. But I can't even imagine what that state's like.
Meanwhile, lots of people are running around proclaiming their Buddha nature, that there is nothing more to do in this life, that everything is empty, etc., etc., and simply using this as an excuse for the accepting the defilements they're afflicted by. People take the language of the dharma and use it to justify laziness, greed and hostility. It's like the dark side of that proverb about wisdom often being hard to distinguish from not giving a damn. It's tragic, because when you get back to basics the path is always clear, and yields much greater rewards.
I find the people in my sangha are humble. And also my Lama says that our meditation is the one you take to enlightenment. She says the dhyanas should only be a tool and not the primary emphasis.
Again it's just sectarian differences, but I don't have the same experience as you did with the Kagyu. The most important thing in the Kagyu is to establish connections to the awakening mandala. This includes people and studies.
I accept that Buddha nature is a name for the experience of enlightened mind, but I have no experience of that. I couldn't tell you what it is, and I know people who can't say despite having practiced in the Kagyu tradition for decades. I expect the term might be more useful after the attainment of stream entry, when there's accidental experience of enlightened mind, and that's how the Mahayana teachings were originally intended.
Buddha nature is openness, clarity and sensitivity. It is immediately accessable. Right now.
My course is spiral learning on eight points. The spiral leads deeper and deeper. The teachings are beginning but also the teaching all the way up to enlightenment.
What are the teachings on Discovering the Heart of Buddhism?
Discovering the Heart of Buddhism training is based on some of the most profound Buddhist teachings: the Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings of Tibetan Buddhism.
The training on Discovering the Heart of Buddhism is a search for truth: a process of exploring our experience and coming to understand and relax into our true nature. In the midst of all the pain, doubt, hesitation, stress and confusion of our lives, there is something that keeps us going. We talk of losing heart and yet, somehow, there is something deep inside us that spurs us on, restores us and gives us hope.
The path of Buddhist training is to uncover this heart of our being, to recognise it, to value it and to base our lives and actions on it. According to the Buddhist tradition, this is our Awakened Heart (Sanskrit: Bodhichitta) or Buddha Nature (Sanskrit: Tathagatagarbha).
The ideas introduced in the course are ones you will keep coming back to however long you study, and so it is equally suitable for those who have read about and practised Buddhism for years and for those who are completely new to it.
Discovering the Heart of Buddhism is not an academic course. Rather, it is a comprehensive training in Buddhist study, reflection and meditation – providing a sound basis for a lifetime of deep spiritual practice.
Read on below for more about the Awakened Heart and the training to uncover it.
We may recognise in our immediate experience that deep down we have the qualities of clarity, awareness, sensitivity, warmth and love, but according to the Buddhist tradition, we have little idea at the outset just how deep and vast those qualities can be. They are none less than expressions of our Buddha Nature, our Awakened Heart.
The process starts with discovering how we have lost touch with the heart essence of our being, our Awakened Heart, that basic goodness that constantly eludes us. If it is so essential to our being, how could we have lost touch with it and having found it again, how could we fail to cultivate it? The answer to such questions can only be found through deeper self knowledge and an inner understanding of the true nature of reality itself.
Somehow, we have come to identify ourselves with our negative habits of mind. Instead of feeling open, clear and sensitive, we feel a certain hardening of our heart from a vague but deep-seated sense of inadequacy, confusion or fear. The training is about letting those negative patterns go, developing confidence and allowing our own natural openness, clarity and sensitivity to emerge, strengthen, expand and deepen through meditation, reflection and study.
Through this process and especially through our connection with others and a deepening appreciation of the quality of awareness possible in our daily life, our sense of claustrophobia, limitation and loneliness starts to give way to a more positive outlook on life. There is suffering, but there is a detectable cause of suffering and a path of awareness that gradually alleviates that suffering for ourselves and others.
This is a long and subtle process and requires great commitment, confidence and determination to pursue to the end. Nevertheless to pursue it even a little can significantly transform our lives.
Learning has tended to be thought of as a linear development, gaining knowledge about a series of different topics one after another, progressing through to ever more advanced topics. But the path of true Buddhist training is not like this, and this is why Discovering the Heart of Buddhism has been constructed using the principles of spiral learning instead. This is why, although further more elaborate teachings are available in the Awakened Heart Sangha, these further teachings are only for the purpose of deepening and expanding our understanding of the core material presented in Discovering the Heart of Buddhism, material to which everyone returns time and time again with ever deepening appreciation.
The aim of Discovering the Heart of Buddhism is ambitious. It is to do nothing less than provide everyone, young or old, Buddhist or non-Buddhist, with a direct, authentic and systematic way of starting to reconnect with their Awakened Heart.
"What I found in Discovering the Heart of Buddhism profoundly touched me right from the start - and went so far beyond my expectations that it is difficult to find words to describe." ~Office manager
"It felt very wholesome, linking Buddhism to my own roots in a very natural way. ~ IT executive
"The course brought many things I half-knew together for me in a way I could have confidence in." ~Nurse
"The diamond-like clarity of the materials can only have come from being written by someone deeply inspired at the time and being later polished with care." ~Business consultant
"I knew nothing about Buddhism, but the course took me by the hand and led me step by step, gently building up my confidence." ~Kindergarten director
"This course is an outstanding achievement." ~Distance learning educator
"You go to some Buddhist groups and you feel the teachers are just giving you the party line, but on Discovering the Heart of Buddhism I felt that it was coming out fresh every time from their own experience." ~Therapist
Hi, i wonder about you only counting six steps. These steps are ok but there are two more to finish the final state of consciousness. The 8fold Path is the means to achieve this 8 steps of Jhanas. If you achieved that, you must decide whether you want to go firther or not. This fürther is totally upon your own, there is no further instruction from the teaching.
@fivebells it sounds like you enjoy suffering an inabilitiy to be your true nature or are you just tied up in the knot of your self?
I also don't hear people who proclaim to have experienced their sky like awareness to be shouting they are enlightened. Rather it is something positive that spurs some on to practice with more enthusiasm. One of the reasons for this post.
Just having a glimpse of enlightened mind is not the same as being enlightened, but glimpse after glimpse after glimpse comes with meditation. If doesn't then what's the point of meditating. Ending suffering? Not likely if your view is distorted or blurred by obfuscating ideas.
The traditional Theravada view generally does not believe in any thing such as "true nature, true self" etc, etc. Theravada monks, at least the ones I have seen, denounce "Buddha Nature" and anything like it. Meanwhile, most, if not all, of the zen masters talk of finding your true nature. Both are fine, they are just different dharma doors. IMO
@Hamsaka ... I read somewhere, please don't ask where as I've forgotten
'when people get angry with you or irritate you just think about it as their Karma bumping into yours' ... that quote helped me to understand.
I've been struggling with exactly that kind of atmosphere at work, no matter how hard I tried to 'make it right' it didn't change a thing...it was driving me mad and making me in turn become angry and I actually got to the point where I woke up in the morning dreading going to work. (probably all the wine I was drinking at the time wasn't helping the way I was feeling)
I understand what you mean about the value of no self awareness, since I've been applying that and being mindful in my life (which is a very short time, from the beginning of December) I have dealt with those situations/personalities with ease. Now to be honest I'm not really sure as yet what has caused the change in me, abstinence from alcohol or researching Buddhism/mindfulness/meditation... I posted a thread with that in mind a while ago, the best advice I got back from that was .. don't worry about what it was that caused the change just keep moving forward.
I suppose we all have a different way of learning, maybe because of that we need lots of different teachers/teaching styles, as long as it works for the individual I don't see any point in arguing about how to get there.
Thanks for you post it, resonates with my own thoughts.
I realize I should have asked who HAS experienced this unchanging pure awareness that Rinpoche alludes to.
I know that someone is going to say 'experience a phenomenon' that's conditioned you know! So it can't be our true nature!
But think of a cup of water. There needs to be a cup to hold the water. Tip away the water and the cup is still there. Take away the cup and how do you drink the water.
Just another thought as I try to grasp my unchanging pure awareness. LOL
What a paradoxical situation to be in. You can discuss it and perhaps experience or at least have insight into it but you can't share it even though we all have it.
Oh so that's why Buddhists shut up in the end! They learn the futility of arguing with them selves...
According to Bodhidharma, seeing your true self and end of suffering is the same thing.
but according to Buddha's teaching seeing your true self is the real beginning of the path to end of suffering (seeing true nature=stream entry=getting the right view)
and then one has to practice concentration and virtue to get rid of hate, greed by this time the practice is without delusion that means when there is mindfulness there is no greed, hate and delusion in other words one is in 'Noble Eightfold Path'
when one is successful to have such a continuous mindfulness 'one' knows 'one' is Enlightened
The same way the terminology "enlightenment" is useful. According to the Lankavatara sutra: "the reason why the Tathagatas [...] teach the doctrine pointing to the Tathagata-garba is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to the teaching of egolessness and to have them realise the state of non-discrimination and imagelessness"
Buddha nature is openness, clarity and sensitivity.
These may be qualities of Buddha Nature, but they are not identical with Buddha Nature, and merely connecting with a sense of them is not the same as manifesting Buddha Nature, any more than painting a mango red and softening it with a hammer makes it ripe.
@fivebells, No actually they are Buddha Nature. But we cannot ever know what those qualities (openness, clarity, and sensitivity) are. But we can intuit quite a bit and that can give us confidence. Like you said there are kleshas and other obstacles in the way of Buddha Nature. A large part of meditation is clearing away those obstacles. But another trick is to fortify confidence because the obstacles are quite terrifying and you need a lot of confidence on the path. Another trick is to read the lives of Bodhisattvas to help to have confidence.
They cannot be pinned down. If they could be pinned down then they would not be Buddha Nature. They are similar to the 5 Indiryas: smirti, samadhi, virya, prajna, and sradda. That's where you will find talk of them in the Pali Canon.
They are the same thing as the nature of mind. Outside of my sangha they are called clear, luminous, and unimpeded. That would be Buddha Nature. Another name for them is Dharmakaya or shunyata even. It says in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation that Dharmakaya is emptiness and I am guessing that Buddha Nature is also Dharmakaya.
There is...release from the "self" as in finding your "true self", or release from the conventions that bind the self, but I don't think it's the final phase of release from birth and death.
I wish I could teleport my copy of Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity to you @fivebells.
We can debate it next spring too
This is from the spring thread and I think it still applies:
@fivebells, I think we have seen that the OP is interested in the approach of others than myself, thus I will not respond to more posts and divert the thread. Feel free to make a new thread, but I think neither one of us is going to delve into a 'reading list' provided. At least I am not going to do that. I will spend my time to find out what my tradition is doing and then from that point I will see other traditions. Even within TB if you follow 2 or more it can be confusing because terms are defined differently all down the line. In TB I am thinking of the rangtong shentong divide.
Just speaking from my sense of happiness I am very pleased to have found my teacher and I find her teachings useful in my life. Plus I think they go to the final goal or rather my reading of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, it seems like a full path. Also I have transcribed many dharma talks and have a very good feeling for my teacher and my sangha.
That said I wish you well (of course). Serva Mangalam (may all be accomplished). I really respect your practice and wish good things and much understanding for you.
Regards, Jeff
PS did you find the spring thread on a google search?
In the state of nothingness there is awareness that nothing is perceived. You can remember this. I think (can't find the cite now) I've read that in the subsequent state, which is sometimes called "the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception" you can't remember it when you exit it. But I can't even imagine what that state's like.
And I put it to you that is what we can actually experience in meditation - Pure and Simple. But if you try and imagine it that is where you start running into difficulties. So be it!
I've started picking up nightly meditation again and mindful breathing again. I did it years ago in high school and found it immensely helpful with depression back then. I'll be applying the mindfulness breathing while on extended boredom marathons at the security desk.
@Frozen_Paratrooper The suffering arising from a job that one finds to be boring can be greatly reduced or eliminated with a mindfulness practice of that boredom. It can also allows you to remain alert through repetitive functions where you might otherwise become drowsy or stupefied.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Unless I misunderstood, you were saying contrary to the o/p in that the heart of meditation is to understand suffering but wherever there is suffering, there is self.
There is actually suffering which does not involve a self, and that is what I was pointing to in that discussion:
...the perception of arising phenomena is itself a form of suffering. It's a mix of contact, name-and-form and consciousness, in the framework of dependent origination.
If I ever entered a state of nothingness, I don't think I'd be able to remember it. I have entered a state where there seems to be no distinction between observer and observed but that's more of a realisation of togetherness.
In the state of nothingness there is awareness that nothing is perceived. You can remember this. I think (can't find the cite now) I've read that in the subsequent state, which is sometimes called "the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception" you can't remember it when you exit it. But I can't even imagine what that state's like.
I'm guessing the state of nothingness is called that for a lack of any meaningful label. How could there possibly be awareness in a state of nothingness? It is a conflict of terms.
Seems to me it would more rightly be the state of awareness but that is more in tune with the o/p than a supposed state of nothingness.
I am very skeptical of teachings that include things like nothing and the qualities of nothingness. If there are any qualities or any mental states then we are not talking about nothing or nothingness.
These are not places, these are mental states. It's true that there is perception of the fact that nothing else is perceived. The Sariputta sutta near the start of the thread makes this clear.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think we're muddling up meditative experiences from different traditions.
We have to find an emptiness or spaciousness or suchness in the form of varying meditation. It is perfectly possible to experience this outside of formality, in other words a form of emptying.
This emptying of self, shellfish, selfish and fishy opinions to sell, is part of the engagement with sangha, dharma and meditation.
In this sense the parts or stages or 'abiding' in meditation play out their song. What then is left? You sing it, I'll HUM it.
A whole is composed of all empty appearing parts. So the whole is also empty. A fishing line is composed of a hook, a line, and a real. The parts are also all empty. They can break. But in the immediacy there is a functioning to the fishing line. It can catch a fish. And then something, a fish, appears.
Empty of wholeness is what emptiness means. An incompleteness. On-going. Fleeting.
Yes. It also has other meanings and interpretations in various Buddhist contexts. We might say that Wholeness is empty and nothing is form . . . http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/hs10.htm
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Empty of wholeness is what emptiness means. An incompleteness. On-going. Fleeting.
Being empty is what makes it all complete because emptiness is simply the potential for change.
There is nothing incomplete about emptiness from my view.
I agree it appears that emptiness has every conceivable possibility within it. That completes it!
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Thanissaro has an excellent series of talks (parts 1234567) on the role of emptiness in the practice and the historical evolution of the concept. Fascinating, useful stuff.
Thanissaro has an excellent series of talks (parts 1234567) on the role of emptiness in the practice and the historical evolution of the concept. Fascinating, useful stuff.
Thanks for those @fivebells - I'll listen to them over the coming week, of course that means breaking my resolve to avoid listening to dharma talks, but, as you've offered them for nothing, I accept them.
Comments
If I ever entered a state of nothingness, I don't think I'd be able to remember it. I have entered a state where there seems to be no distinction between observer and observed but that's more of a realisation of togetherness.
(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tool&defid=1403153)
Yeah... Even duality is not such a bad thing when we see it as our tool and not the other way around.
What??? Duality sees me as it's tool?
Meanwhile, lots of people are running around proclaiming their Buddha nature, that there is nothing more to do in this life, that everything is empty, etc., etc., and simply using this as an excuse for the accepting the defilements they're afflicted by. People take the language of the dharma and use it to justify laziness, greed and hostility. It's like the dark side of that proverb about wisdom often being hard to distinguish from not giving a damn. It's tragic, because when you get back to basics the path is always clear, and yields much greater rewards.
Again it's just sectarian differences, but I don't have the same experience as you did with the Kagyu. The most important thing in the Kagyu is to establish connections to the awakening mandala. This includes people and studies. Buddha nature is openness, clarity and sensitivity. It is immediately accessable. Right now.
My course is spiral learning on eight points. The spiral leads deeper and deeper. The teachings are beginning but also the teaching all the way up to enlightenment.
The eight spokes are
indestructible heart essence
confidence
heart wish
openness
clarity
sensitivity
mandala
"What I found in Discovering the Heart of Buddhism
profoundly touched me right from the start - and went so far beyond my
expectations that it is difficult to find words to describe."
~Office manager
"It felt very wholesome, linking Buddhism to my own roots in a very natural way.
~ IT executive
"The course brought many things I half-knew together for me in a way I could have confidence in."
~Nurse
"The diamond-like clarity of the materials can only have come from being written by someone deeply inspired at the time and being later polished with care."
~Business consultant
"I knew nothing about Buddhism, but the course took me by the hand and led me step by step, gently building up my confidence."
~Kindergarten director
"This course is an outstanding achievement."
~Distance learning educator
"You go to some Buddhist groups and you feel the teachers are just giving you the party line, but on Discovering the Heart of Buddhism I felt that it was coming out fresh every time from their own experience."
~Therapist
Bullsh it?
OM MANI PEME IT?
Sit tight assed against an empty wall?
'must empty my mind, must empty my empty's'
Like the sky AND the sky. Nothing like the sky.
oops bit of a paradox
empty the form, form the emptiness . . .
Are we sitting comfortably
Then I'll begin
The end.
:wave:
i wonder about you only counting six steps. These steps are ok but there are two more
to finish the final state of consciousness. The 8fold Path is the means to achieve this
8 steps of Jhanas. If you achieved that, you must decide whether you want to go
firther or not. This fürther is totally upon your own, there is no further instruction from
the teaching.
sakko
I also don't hear people who proclaim to have experienced their sky like awareness to be shouting they are enlightened. Rather it is something positive that spurs some on to practice with more enthusiasm. One of the reasons for this post.
Just having a glimpse of enlightened mind is not the same as being enlightened, but glimpse after glimpse after glimpse comes with meditation. If doesn't then what's the point of meditating. Ending suffering? Not likely if your view is distorted or blurred by obfuscating ideas.
'when people get angry with you or irritate you just think about it as their Karma bumping into yours' ... that quote helped me to understand.
I've been struggling with exactly that kind of atmosphere at work, no matter how hard I tried to 'make it right' it didn't change a thing...it was driving me mad and making me in turn become angry and I actually got to the point where I woke up in the morning dreading going to work. (probably all the wine I was drinking at the time wasn't helping the way I was feeling)
I understand what you mean about the value of no self awareness, since I've been applying that and being mindful in my life (which is a very short time, from the beginning of December) I have dealt with those situations/personalities with ease. Now to be honest I'm not really sure as yet what has caused the change in me, abstinence from alcohol or researching Buddhism/mindfulness/meditation... I posted a thread with that in mind a while ago, the best advice I got back from that was .. don't worry about what it was that caused the change just keep moving forward.
I suppose we all have a different way of learning, maybe because of that we need lots of different teachers/teaching styles, as long as it works for the individual I don't see any point in arguing about how to get there.
Thanks for you post it, resonates with my own thoughts.
I realize I should have asked who HAS experienced this unchanging pure awareness that Rinpoche alludes to.
I know that someone is going to say 'experience a phenomenon' that's conditioned you know! So it can't be our true nature!
But think of a cup of water. There needs to be a cup to hold the water. Tip away the water and the cup is still there. Take away the cup and how do you drink the water.
Just another thought as I try to grasp my unchanging pure awareness. LOL
What a paradoxical situation to be in. You can discuss it and perhaps experience or at least have insight into it but you can't share it even though we all have it.
Oh so that's why Buddhists shut up in the end! They learn the futility of arguing with them selves...
according to Buddha's teaching
seeing your true self is the real beginning of the path to end of suffering
(seeing true nature=stream entry=getting the right view)
and
then
one has to practice concentration and virtue to get rid of hate, greed
by this time the practice is without delusion
that means when there is mindfulness there is no greed, hate and delusion
in other words one is in 'Noble Eightfold Path'
when one is successful to have such a continuous mindfulness 'one' knows 'one' is Enlightened
until then
one can not say 'I am araht or arahnt'
They cannot be pinned down. If they could be pinned down then they would not be Buddha Nature. They are similar to the 5 Indiryas: smirti, samadhi, virya, prajna, and sradda. That's where you will find talk of them in the Pali Canon.
They are the same thing as the nature of mind. Outside of my sangha they are called clear, luminous, and unimpeded. That would be Buddha Nature. Another name for them is Dharmakaya or shunyata even. It says in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation that Dharmakaya is emptiness and I am guessing that Buddha Nature is also Dharmakaya.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html
We can debate it next spring too
This is from the spring thread and I think it still applies: Just speaking from my sense of happiness I am very pleased to have found my teacher and I find her teachings useful in my life. Plus I think they go to the final goal or rather my reading of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, it seems like a full path. Also I have transcribed many dharma talks and have a very good feeling for my teacher and my sangha.
That said I wish you well (of course). Serva Mangalam (may all be accomplished). I really respect your practice and wish good things and much understanding for you.
Regards,
Jeff
PS did you find the spring thread on a google search?
The suffering arising from a job that one finds to be boring can be greatly reduced or eliminated with a mindfulness practice of that boredom.
It can also allows you to remain alert through repetitive functions where you might otherwise become drowsy or stupefied.
Seems to me it would more rightly be the state of awareness but that is more in tune with the o/p than a supposed state of nothingness.
I am very skeptical of teachings that include things like nothing and the qualities of nothingness. If there are any qualities or any mental states then we are not talking about nothing or nothingness.
It doesn't actually. If Sariputta remained in the state of nothingness then it is no longer a state of nothingness.
In this sutta, I don't believe the correct interpretation is nothingness.
This emptying of self, shellfish, selfish and fishy opinions to sell, is part of the engagement with sangha, dharma and meditation.
In this sense the parts or stages or 'abiding' in meditation play out their song. What then is left? You sing it, I'll HUM it.
OM MANI PEME HUM
:clap:
It also has other meanings and interpretations in various Buddhist contexts. We might say that Wholeness is empty and nothing is form . . .
http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/hs10.htm
There is nothing incomplete about emptiness from my view.