How to stop a freight train
zenguitar
Bad BuddhistNew England Veteran
Greetings, invaluable Sangha. It seems to me that our current sorry state must be the product of countless previous lifetimes (or at least years) tainted by ignorance, aversion, and greed. Since I have spent so long wallowing in these poisons, sometimes I feel discouraged that I can stop this terrible ancient momentum just by sitting and focusing on my breath. Every attempt I have made so far has failed. I am still angry, I am still fearful, I am still selfish and greedy.
Isn't this quiet meditative approach kind of like stepping in front of a moving freight train, thinking that will stop the train? Don't you need something as powerful as the train to stop the train? And yet I don't know what that could be...
Sometimes I think maybe the Christians are right, people cannot save themselves, you need some higher power to do that. Can you lift yourself up by your bootstraps? But ultimately I just cannot believe in the Christian doctrine. So I return dutifully to my meditation seat. What else is there for me to do?
Sorry if this post is something of a downer, but I have wondered about this for quite a while. Thank you very much.
Comments
"I am still angry, I am still fearful, I am still selfish and greedy....."
Sounds like progress to me. Most people don't even know that's the problem.
Watering and planting seeds of virtue and the opposites of those might be a way of balancing it all out in the meantime ..
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Don't you need something as powerful as the train to stop the train?
Yes, in a way you do, and it's the 8-fold path. It's a comprehensive and powerful package when you can get all the path factors working together, but it takes time to understand and make the connections. A better analogy might be stopping a super-tanker - you need to find reverse gear!
Do you have ( or could you get ) any face-to-face contact with other Buddhists, even occasionally? Most people find that helpful.
Of course you're still angry, fearful, selfish and greedy. Those are all bad habits of the mind you've had many years to acquire. You don't think that you can get rid of those defilements in a few meditation sessions, do you? Fortunately, a disciplined, clear mind and focused effort can break those bad habits in a lot less time than it took to acquire them.
You speak of an accumulated momentum of defilement, from countless previous lifetimes. Karma is not causing your anger, or fear, or greed. The mind is not a mirror covered with layers of crusty grime that you have to scrape off. The mirror, like your mind and karma itself, is fundamentally empty. Realize that, and you realize there is nothing for the grime to stick to.
But that's something you can work on later. For now, you should grit your teeth and practice, looking at your fear and finding out where it's coming from. It's just the usual objections your mind throws up. Your feeling is just another fear. Fear of failure, fear of not being good enough. My mind occasionally pulls that trick on me. It happens to all of us. Those Masters, those Arahants that came before us? They were nothing special. They cussed when they stubbed their toe, got pissed at the monk who kept cutting in line, and despaired of attaining even a little peace of mind at times. They were and are just like you. Anything they did, you can do with a bit of effort.
@zenguitar
Yes there is a freight train of ignorance
The job of the Buddhist practitioner is to not keep adding your contribution to its propulsion.
I will leave the ideas of when such a train might ever be able to be stopped to philosophers to play with and just say that meditation is experiencing that such train travel is optional.
It is not your/our job to stop the train.
What if we become the sky above it? The train is not going anywhere no matter where it goes.
I think meditation is only part of the solution. It goes alongside trying to live an ethical life (whatever that means to you) and the practise of compassion.
I'm lucky, I'm in A.A., there's always someone I can phone to give some support "Hello, I was just thinking about you. How are you doing?", there's always someone I can offer a lift to a meeting, or meet up to take through our 12 Step program.
Practising compassion means getting up off our selfish arses and actually doing something, and it's powerful stuff.
It may be, but if that's true, then the opposite is also true: our current state must also be the product of countless lifetimes (or years) suffused by non-delusion, non-aversion, and non-greed. So even if one's life is currently going down one track leading towards more suffering, the conditions are there to switch tracks towards happiness. And much like the Christian idea of grace, where help from outside is given, one can see the same in Buddhism, I think.
Grace is what allows us to will (intend) well, according to Augustine; and the are many things in Buddhism that can be compared to this. One is the accumulation of past and present skillful kamma that help give rise to a happy life and keep one on the path. Another is the fruits of the path, like stream-entry onwards, in which unwholesome mental states are weakened or destroyed. And then there's the practice of the four divine abodes, which can act as a sort of grace, purifying the mind and diluting the effects of our unskillful deeds.
If everything in life is a potential determinant a la causal determinism, then our contact with these teachings, whether we learn them from reading the suttas or listening to teachers or hanging out on Buddhist discussion forums (or even the intervention of heavenly beings, if you have faith in such things), can help to change the momentum of our lives. And things like meditation are tools to help us by helping us strengthen our faculties of mindfulness and wisdom.
If you notice then you're making progress.
The more you notice, the quicker you'll notice. If a seed of anger sprouts then water a seed of compassion aimed at the manifested anger.
The only reason we should use fire to fight fire is when we've run out of water but in this case water is mindfulness.
On the topic of salvation, what is there to be saved from?
We could act as if the murder of Jesus can save us from the wrath of a being that created us evil but that doesn't seem too responsible.
If we want to be saved from ignorance, I think mindfulness practice is the way to go.
Well if that's what you're thinking, the train will roll right over you.
Meditation doesn't stop the train. It allows you to transcend it.
Thinking you should stop it is a mistake.
hi
Dont meditate on the track.
slainte
Yes, I can, I just have been a little busy lately, thanks.
Not sure if they are relevant or not, but the OP put me in mind of a couple of true stories in my own life. First of all, I like the honesty of the OP ... it ain't all peaches and cream. And then:
A kindly-disposed Hindu swami once looked me straight in the end and summed up the whole matter briefly: "If the screw took sixteen turns to put in, it will take sixteen turns to get out.
Working at a newspaper on a slow Saturday night several years ago, I was reading wire copy as it arrived on the Internet from the Associated Press, New York Times, etc. Suddenly a three or four-paragraph 'spiritual' brief caught my eye:
In Russia, there was a fellow (teacher/guru/whatever) who had gathered quite a following. Central to his teaching was the "emptiness of all things." Sensing some doubts among his followers, he promised to prove his belief by standing in front of an oncoming freight train when it passed through. He would, he promised, survive.
Good to his word, the man took up his position on the tracks. Good to its word, the freight train arrived.
The story did not include details of the funeral arrangements.
PS. I always liked the saying, "Understanding is knowing to get out of the way of an on-coming bus. Practice is for the bus you didn't see coming."
Thanks everyone, I guess I have a little better idea of how to deal with that freight train now.
I have similar thing getting discouraged. Just notice that feeling and examine the present. You could even get a sense of wonder about the process? But yeah we might often hope for progress. That is not a total disaster. We can work with it.
try to get the Noble Right View
that will slow down the train
then
one knows how to Stop the train
What a great realization?
“You are as the yellow leaf. The messengers of death are at hand. You are to travel far away. What will you take with you? You are the lamp to lighten the way. Then hurry, hurry. When your light shines without impurity of desire, you will come into the boundless country.” (18:1 and 2)
http://chaplaincyinstitute.org/library/world-religions/20-sayings-of-the-buddha-the-dhammapada-in-two-versions/
“A monk … who strives in the Buddha’s teachings is like the moon emerging from the clouds and lighting up the world.”
“The seeker who sets out upon the way shines bright over the world. Like the moon, come out from behind the clouds! Shine.” (25:23)
Patience is the key @zenguitar.
Shambhala Publications
AWAKENED STATE OF FRESHNESS
You do not have to attend to or cultivate the awakened state of being as something new in your system. You realize that you already possess that awakened state of freshness. Anything that you can appreciate and enjoy in your life, such as seeing a beautiful flower, experiencing exquisite situations, or hearing beautiful language, teachings or music, comes out of that awakened state.
—The Profound Treasury of the Ocean of Dharma. Volume Two: The Bodhisattva Path of Wisdom and Compassion by Chögyam Trungpa http://www.shambhala.com/the-bodhisattva-path-of-wisdom-and-compassion-volume-3.html
:wave: .
What train? Samsara is a train, for everyone.
You think samsara, karma, dependent origination and 'no longer happening shit' arrives empty with [insert Bhumi, jhana, nirvana etc of choice]?
Good luck with that one . . .
You probably need more sila in your carriage
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śīla
that and a bigger driver seat cushion :buck: .
I'm having a lot of fun stopping my own train.
Why would I want to hand over the responsibility over my own life to a higher power?
That"s the easiest way out, the faint-hearts approach.
I have saved myself many times already. Especially from giving in to fairy tales about saviours other than me and my Dharma.
@zenguitar ! Thank you for sharing such a great post, I like your analogy.
What's helped me stay focus in times of great doubt is that I watch "the train"
I am observing the train wreck however I seem to still call myself the train.
However the train and the observer can not be the same thing. I must be something more!
I have also found you can only measure your improvement in how calm and aware you are in situations. If you improve than you are doing great!
Another great thing that all enlightened people tell us, is we are already here. Awake in the present moment. We just have to see it.
This is what will let you let your train carry on
and you will be completely at peace. Keep practicing. Measure your improvements and the only thing you need to give up is the illusion you are something you are not. Your are.
Where I live the bigger trains have a quiet carriage. Maybe one of those would help?
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What does the train look like? What shape is it? Where do you feel the train in your body, and what's the sensation like? Expand around the train until it's a . . . well, much smaller
.By then it might have already gone by and you're still sitting there.
Repeat when the train returns.
What helps to inspire me to continue no matter what is to remember at how mighty prince Siddhartha's resolve was to find the origin of suffering, when he left the palace and went into homelessness in search of truth before his awakening. His resolve must of eclipsed every spiritual seeker in search of ultimate truth in the whole planet at that time, and i don't think there is anyone even today in the world that has such a strong resolve as the Buddha did those 2500 years ago.
Guys . . .
Enlightened drivers for train required.
Apply within. :wave: .
Keep on track. Meditate even on the funny carriages . . .
:wave: .
'Ere, guv, they never said I was supposed to be inside...
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-teldjHpWEAg/T0b8NW6HEaI/AAAAAAAAA3A/vGdlILW4Od4/s1600/runaway-train-1985-02-g.jpg
Nobody promised us a bed of roses, anyway.
The Buddha never said he would walk the mileage with us.
He gave us the tools, but it's up to us to do the legwork.
I love the fact that he was a man like any of us and left with the promise that what he had attained, any of us can attain. By ourselves, through our own sweat and outfiguring.
Honestly, @zenguitar, why would you think we need an outer influence to "save" us?
What do you want to be saved from?
I mean, this is life. In black and white, and all the grey hues interspersed.
With the greed, the aversion, the conflict, the inner turmoil. Why would you think it should be something else?
This is Samsara. Create your own Nirvana.
Stopping a train is just too hard! Actually, I think it's not like stopping the train. But rather, something like just walking on the dirt path instead of the actual train tracks. If you are not walking on the train tracks to begin with, the train becomes insignificant.
Or, instead of stopping the train, just stop shoveling coal into the engine, then you don't need to stop the train. The train is guaranteed to stop by itself when it runs out of fuel. Learning how to not throw coal into the engine, I think that where practice comes in.
Either way, you don't need to stand out in front of a freight train like superman or something, that's too hard!
Or, instead of stopping the train, just stop shoveling coal into the engine, then you don't need to stop the train.
It sounds like you haven't travelled by train for quite a while?
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Some great understandings and answers guys.
What you describe as the locomotion, the unruly crazy horses pulling the chariot in all directions is indeed what we are like (well I am) . . . however we can learn to be OK and calm with that . . .
. . . and strangely but quite naturally as we calm, so the horses or fright [sic] train slows and it becomes easier. Eventually even the speed is part of the journeying . . .
We can ride the wind . . .
Guys?????
I'll let DhammaDragon address this if she wants to.
And @Hamsaka!!!
Once again, @lobster: Guys??????
Dear Buddhas,
In some Sufi circles, women were allowed because for social reasons they were herded into the class of being known as 'men'.
In social terms, I have no problem being addressed as 'you guys' or applying Sir as a form of gender independent respect.
Do some of you gals have to be more post feminist? You will notice that referring to 'us gals' places men into an effeminate rather than empowered status . . . such is gender arisings . . .
Lobster
That's why I use "folks". Both fellows and guys connote men and "people" is so impersonal. Plus there might be some non-humans posting for all we know.
Yes, there may well be space aliens in our midst...
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And why I have a tendency to say 'people'... or 'Peeps'!
Guys is gender-orientated, and frankly, too many things are, in some subtle way.
Society as a whole is still very male-gender directed.
It's insidious, unseen, unnoticed, unchallenged and very real.
We had a ding-dong thread about it a short while ago, and things became so heated, I had to fan some ladies with a silk 'kerchief, lest they fainted away, and castrate several male participants.
Nothing extreme, you understand.....
Well, marm, one might find it easier to use the Queen's English in such matters. One is continually perplexed by these colonial colloquialisms. And what, one might ask, is wrong with "ladies and gentlemen" as a collective form of address? "Guys and gals" is just so vulgar!
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absolutely right in every way. You cockneys sure can talk pretty when you want to!
That's why in the South the term "y'all" is perfectly fine for all conversation, no matter how refined.
Fellow members?
Doesn't call up any specific gender, does it?
"Guys" where I live is genderless, it just means a group of people. In my personal life it often refers to groups of geese, chickens, ducks and once in a while, insects.
Colleagues? Fellow travelers? Actually I like @cinorjer's suggestion: "Y'all"
My lords, ladies, gentlemen, mammalians, crustaceans, space aliens....
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"Fellow Sentient Beings"
I always thought if I started an accapella vocal group, our name would be "Sentient Beings". But our act would include a trained dog.
If "guys" works for everyone then "girls" should equally fit. There is a reason why we have words for each gender and words that include both. There are many places where such a word for one gender or the other would not be acceptable to make reference to to both.
How to stop a runaway language train?
Agree that nobody really thinks lobster meant to exclude anyone and ask ourselves are we currently riding or just watching the OP's original train.
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers ( and sisters )..."
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Lately it seems like it's not unusual for a young woman to refer to another one as dude. My daughter does it and I've heard others do it as well.
When I talk to her about her and her fiancé I might say "what are you guys up to?". It seems pretty normal to me, and her.
Fellows is colloquial english for a group of males.
Member is also a male thing.
Friends is neutral, you guys.
Language is frequently provocative or confrontational especially on the web. However I will continue to use it perhaps unskilfully and gender loaded on occasion . . .
Vive la différence.
:wave: .
What I find . . . . interesting . . . is that it would be quite offensive to most male humans to be referred to as 'gals' or by some mostly feminine referent. This starts practically at birth . . . females 'don't mind' being referred to with male specific terms but it ain't so, t' other way around..
Walking up to a group of male humans in Gay Town, USA and calling them 'gals' is equally offensive, if not moreso (unless this particular group is wholeheartedly female-queer).
Being called a 'girl' is a common insult to the boy who throws underhand rather than from the shoulder.
That it is not similarly offensive to use the male specific word . . . interesting. Not exactly on topic, either lol.
It's the reverse in other things. Females can ride motorcycles in a leather jacket and they are valued as strong (maybe a little weird) but guys don't wear pink dresses.