Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Belief in God
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
Given that the thread this sub-thread is taken from, is relatively old, and has been revived, this discussion was created from comments split from: Is there anything against believing in God?.
Please note that most threads older than 6 months old do not bear revival, and it is best to create new discussions.
Please note that most threads older than 6 months old do not bear revival, and it is best to create new discussions.
0
Comments
Check out these videos, and the whole channel, if you have a chance
http://www.youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo/videos
Do not let the collar scare you! This is a truly impressive man, graced with one of the most articulate and profound understanding of theology and philosophy I've ever witnessed
I'm more of a polytheist and animist myself. I could never get down with monotheism, but your mileage may vary. shrugs I stick to evolution, the Big Bang, cause-and-effect, etc. to describe creation.
@Jeffrey, one thing to note is that there are many different concepts of God - though many here will just assume that when we talk about God, we're talking about some magical man who lives in the sky. This might be merely a raft to a deeper understanding.
A good book that covers this subject is:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Talk-About-When-God/dp/0007556187
The author is a Pastor called Rob Bell; he's quite a good guy to listen to.
Another talk - from a priest I like is this one:
https://www.ted.com/talks/tom_honey_on_god_and_the_tsunami?language=en
If you listen towards the end of the talk, after he explains his struggle with his faith after the tsunami, he almost starts sounding 'Buddhist' with regards his thoughts about God.
And then there's Christian Mystics - who definately don't hold the 'magic man in the sky' concept of God; in fact they can describe God in terms that Emptiness could possibly be described as:
I don't expect you to read the book or watch the links, all I'm doing is explaining that the word 'God' means many different things to different people, and there are concepts of God far deeper than the strawman 'magic man' concept.
I am Catholic. Thus I agree with Aquinas, when he infers God is the pure act of to be itself, "ipsum esse subsistens". Though I maintain God is transcendent to His creation - but at the same time Omnipresent, meaning that He continuously sustains the whole of creation: His love of creation is such that He will not withdraw His Presence, which would be the ultimate form of annihilation, not merely imposing death, but ending existence altogether - I find there are many interesting aspects in Buddhism, especially its Zen variety.
Again, I do not adhere to panentheism, but Zen master Soyen Shaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyen_Shaku) has some very interesting insights on this matter and concerning God. An occasion to really appreciate subtle analogies and differences between Christianity and Buddhism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa04.htm
The following script shows how God is understood in the context of Catholicism
http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/4835
I would also suggest the works of Trappist monk, mystic, writer and poet Thomas Merton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton), a seminal figure in interfaith understanding, who devoted a big part of his life to the study of Eastern religions (particularly Zen Buddhism)
Perhaps God isn't what "we" think God is. Perhaps he doesn't behave the way we think he should behave. So let's just totally dismiss the concept since what may be reality doesn't fit our desired reality.
Precisely what I intend NOT to do. To not engage with some desired reality.
I'm trying to figure out what you are getting to here, vinlyn.
Is it in line with your comments earlier in the thread addressed to swingisyellow about one including others in statements about one's personal view?
Or are you taking a poke at the view of those who reject God out of hand with what might be considered closemindedness to the idea of it?
Is dismissing a concept the same as rejecting it? To reject it seems about the same as accepting it, in that one has to take a side. I can say that I don't accept the concept of God without rejecting it.
What about just not bothering with it at all, as Hamsaka suggests? Choosing not to spend time thinking about it? Would that be open or closemindedness I wonder?
Is it in line with your comments earlier in the thread addressed to swingisyellow about one including others in statements about one's personal view?
Or are you taking a poke at the view of those who reject God out of hand with what might be considered closemindedness to the idea of it?
Is dismissing a concept the same as rejecting it? To reject it seems about the same as accepting it, in that one has to take a side. I can say that I don't accept the concept of God without rejecting it.
What about just not bothering with it at all, as Hamsaka suggests? Choosing not to spend time thinking about it? Would that be open or closemindedness I wonder?
Good question, Robot, and I'm not sure there is one answer.
But one of the criticisms that I have heard from disillusioned Christians (including myself at one time) was that God doesn't answer prayers (and I think I agree), he isn't fair (and I think I agree), and so on and so forth.
But who that actually KNOWS what God does...if he does exist? Why do so many Christians assume he is a micromanager? In Buddhism we seem to believe what happens in life is up to us. I like that. And maybe that's what life is meant to be...without micromanagement by God. When I was a principal, I didn't micromanage 76 teachers, 3 lesser administrators, 4 guidance counselors, a half-dozen teacher aides, 4 custodians, a dozen cafeteria workers, and 22 school bus drivers. It would have impossible. What I could do was to create an environment where learning could occur. Perhaps that's sort of what God did...if there is a God. Perhaps we should forget about the Bible, or at least the Out-Of-Date Testament.
Just because God doesn't fit what the Bible says he is (if he is), doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
Do I know all this? Of course not. Just tossing out another scenario.
As far as openmindedness versus closedmindedness, eliminating any possibility is certainly closed. Settling on any possibility is also closed. Because none of us KNOWS. But what I see a lot on this forum is the old "Well before I was a Christian, but now I know that was wrong, and now I know that Buddhism is right" scenario. I am reminded of my best friend in high school, John L. He persuaded me to transfer from the Methodist Church to the Catholic Church. He was very persuasive about how wonderful the Catholic Church was. Years later I learned that John had left the Catholic Church and became a Born Again Christian. At some point later I used Facebook to get back in touch with a number of old friends. When I contacted John I learned that not only was he sort of a lay pastor in a Born Again Church, but he immediately began trying to convert me from (gasp) Buddhism to being Born Again...and explaining all the ways he was wrong about Catholicism, but how he now was so right about being Born Again. And I've seen so many scenarios just like that over the years. And, I've met Buddhists who have learned how "wrong" they were and who have converted to Christianity. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. And what is the key to all of this changing of mind? That the "advertisements" for a particular faith -- almost any faith -- don't meet the reality.
So to me, real openmindedness is saying something along the lines of, "Buddhism seems to fit pretty well, but maybe it's only part of the story. Maybe there are other stories out there that are partly true also."
But that's just me.
@Jeffrey
This thread was aimed at Siluon and SimonthePilgram only?
But since the discussion is on I will attempt an answer too.
I guess that you are familiar with buddhist cosmology? That the dhamma does not believe in a creator God or gods? It can be found in the brahmajala sutta I think.
In the Digha Nikaya. The Buddha teaches the path to Brahma. He says that the path to union with the Brahma is a sidetrack on the path to nibbana.
And in the Great Forty Sutta belief in heeaven and gods is not only right view but it is written that not believing in their existance is wrong view. Hope you get the distinction?
In the suttanipata love for all beings is described as a heavenly state. The cultivation of the four heavenly states are according to the buddha the path to union with Brahma.
So according to that the virtues of the Brahma is truly Love and Compassion.
Nothing of the above is any evidence that it is this way or that. But concretely this is a good base to evaluate the current question of what we know that Buddhism thinks about God/gods
/Victor
If you are pursuing the state of Enlightenment (that Buddha attained) then you would not believe in God in terms of a form that can be worshipped or can give out reward or punishment.
Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth.
God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal.
As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state.
Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending.
Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth.
God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal.
As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state.
Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending.
How you could write that after writing in another thread, "What do we really know?", I don't understand.
Sorry I don’t understand where you are coming from on this point.
Knowledge and Wisdom have nothing to with states of consciousness – it is possible to have attained Enlightenment having not seen all the chakras for instance. A truth to consider is the mind does not get Enlightened.
BTA, how do you REALLY KNOW the following:
"Enlightenment is the state of infinite consciousness there is no heaven, hell or rebirth."
"God or the Absolute as I prefer is infinite – if the Absolute wasn’t infinite there would be edges or a beginning and an end - therefore could not be eternal."
"As the Absolutes is infinite (an undifferentiated unity) it does not do or want for anything because it is everything, which makes it absurd to think that you can pray to or have a response from the state."
"Attain Enlightenment like the Buddha and you will know the Absolutes truth which cannot be challenged and does not need defending."
Have you personally experienced all that? Because if you haven't, then you don't really know.
My attitude and approach to the idea of God, and Christianity in particular, has changed a great deal over the years; and while I still see myself as primarily a Buddhist, I've been going to a local Catholic Church for a couple of months now.
Looking back at my superficial understand and criticisms of other religious traditions, I realize how immature they were. I suppose I've finally reached a point where I think it's far more advantageous to focus on the similarities between religious traditions rather than their differences, and where I'm more receptive to those commonalities.
Trying to express that shift in my point of view to others, however, I'm running into the same kind of superficial criticisms I myself used to make about Christianity, and can now see how they, and the views underlying them, are a lot like Maslow's hammer, pounding away at the whole of Christian thought and practice because, from their point of view, everything looks like a nail.
I certainly think they're valid when it comes to the type of 'folk Christianity' that's so prevalent among many (the same goes for Buddhism); but Christianity itself has a solid and rich spiritual core that I'm learning to recognize and appreciate, and I think it's a shame so few are aware of it.
I'm starting to think that religious triumphalism is more a sign of spiritual immaturity and/or intellectual arrogance than anything else, and feel somewhat embarrassed about my own sectarian and triumphal attitudes.
At the last inquiry class I attended, for example, I was asked by one lady if I felt any conflict between the practice of Buddhism and Christianity, and I explained that I found them entirely compatible.
Buddhist detachment isn't so different from the Christian 'dying to self.' The teachings on loving-kindness and compassion aren't much different from Jesus' teachings on the same. The idea that we can wake up to our inherent nature through the cessation of the defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion isn't unlike the idea in 2 Peter that we "may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire," etc.
As @Tosh and @vinlyn alluded earlier, I think we tend to put God in a box, however we conceive the idea, and that picture is influenced by our experiences and biases, how we were raised, the things we've read, the ups and downs in our lives, etc. But the subject transcends whatever box we try to place it in. Our point of view is limited; but at the same time, we want to express how 'the absolute' appears to us in our lives.
To me, God is like the pure Mind in some traditions of Zen, the substance of all phenomena, out of which all experience unfolds. And awakening is simply Mind recognizing itself, divine nature partaking of divine nature. Jesus, then, is like a buddha or bodhisattva, that very same Mind pointing us towards itself. I think this is especially true if one considers texts like the Gospel of Thomas.
That's not to say there aren't aspects of each spiritual tradition that are conflicting or difficult to reconcile (especially at the institutional level), but I've since come to see a common core of suffering, seeking, and enlightenment lying at the heart of all contemplative practices.
In Christianity, I see these ideas presented from a more revelatory point of view, arising out of a peculiar Semitic culture (and later, Greco-Roman), replete with its own religious traditions and worldviews in which they're framed. And in Buddhism, I see these ideas presented from a more philosophical and/or empirical point of view, arising out a peculiar Indic culture, replete with its own religious traditions and worldview in which they're framed.
If approached with an open mind, I think they're entirely compatible, and I count myself lucky that I wasn't indoctrinated into any religious tradition as a child. I think it's made it easier for me to bridge (albeit slowly) these kinds of sectarian gaps.
Great observations - exactly what I would have said.
The next statement is where people can call me crazy or full of BS:
I have attained to the state of Enlightenment and my statements are coming directly from the realizations made on attaining God consciousness
We call you neither crazy nor full of BS.
.
Unless of course, you ride its coat-tails..... We've had countless members do that so far... So in that specific aspect, you join a merry band of many.
To be honest, I doubt you. But that's okay, as it is okay for you to say you have accomplished all of that.
I'll just second this.
God is a conceptual name framework and as such - it's what you want it to be, and that is desire!
This is a teaching for you that desire GOD as your ultimate being:
De - in many languages means "from"
Sire - is in reality a form of address which means you are "superior".
So your desire is to to mean you are seeking to be some thing "from a Superior Realm"
Well - you are (bless you) - and you are not. But don't let that tie you up i such a knot that you know not what you really are!
Meditate on this the knower and the known are the same - the thinker and the thought are the same!
The mess you get yourself into when you become one or the other without knowing one is the other and vice versa - is an insoluble problem - it's called dukkha! and as Anatman you will know and understand this, and impermanence reveals it all period.
That's just my view btw!
You forget you are from that. When you answer it is by way of that.
We are the feedback for that. We can change the future. We can answer payers.
Well the response was kinder than I anticipated!
There was an “I doubt it” comment, how do you draw such a conclusion? Where are the rules (and who made them) that say you can’t attain to the state of Enlightenment.
You can get a better picture from my bio if you choose to read it,
http://lightandsoundmeditation.com/about.html
Doubt is the natural response to such a claim. Doubting is not a conclusion... it's a statement of response, and the appropriate one.
Why would any conclusion be made upon "I have attained..."? That's a claim to be either tested or ignored, not blindly accepted or rejected on the spot!
The experience of "God Consciousness" does not mean that one is "Enlightened" in Buddhist terms. Experiences are not enlightenment. To wit, those who doubt will "wait and see"!
Read it.
What do you have to say that is knew?
I sense a lot of ego around your on-line persona; that's what makes me think you're not enlightened.
Why the ego? Why read my bio - which is written in the 3rd person (something I've read that people suffering with megalomania do)? Why the fancy 'BeyondTheAstal' name? I just use the one people call me.
I doubt it too. Sorry. Maybe you really believe you are, maybe you are, or maybe you suffer with mental health problems. I don't know. If you are, I'm happy for you. If you're not, I hope it doesn't cause you any problems.
don't feel let down by these comments btw
An enlightened being wouldn't care to make others believe they were enlightened. They wouldn't be offended in any way if they were doubted, because there's no ego to bruise (or with anything to prove). Ego-speak is very identifiable, because it's what we unenlightened folk are about most of the time!
It would only be for the purpose of teaching people, helping them, that they'd point to themselves as examples of non-suffering. Not as an attainment or badge of honor... It takes much less time to reveal non-enlightenment than true enlightenment, because a good con artist can fool themselves and others for years while most people who make the claim are not good con artists.
Outstanding post.
For some it is impossible or difficult to find any value in the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Others have no interest or concern for God, gods or ethereal entities.
OK. Fine.
Buddhism does not start from such things, though they appear in some dharma.
Primarily a Buddhist and yet have seen beyond the superficial mask of non mystical Christianity. Great.
The mystic teachings are there in the Abrahamic religions and they are profound. I find Buddhism can throw light on the essentials as I find it provides the best and fastest tools to knowing.
However . . . the Abrahamic traditions provide heart, family and community to a greater degree than much Buddhism, which is sometimes a little clinical and head based.
'God is Greater', as I keep reminding Her.
a little too enigmatic @lobster - but that's your perspective!
The Bio was to provide where I am coming from and the state that has been attained – not in any way shape or form to say “look how cool I am”
I don’t really know what Buddhists mean by Enlightenment - is there anybody who is Enlightened that can stand up and testify to the state?
If there isn’t anybody that can do this – don’t you think it is time to question?
As stated Enlightenment is nothing to do with the mind/personality how I present myself is nothing to do with the state.
FYI I am just an ordinary person that has been given the energy to enable the realization to be made.
@BeyondTheAstral Digging a ditch.
When I first saw the light my reaction was. This should hurt my eyes. Then everything was perfectly clear in the light. The light was out side or inbetween everything.
This experience was given to me by my master Guru.
Heart Sutra:
::snip::
No suffering no origin of suffering no release from suffering no path and no attainment.
@BeyondTheAstral the form is such that you cannot go to a discussion forum and say I am enlightened - not saying you are, but then immediate react of the community will be that as a particular person with no references, doubt of your understanding will be questioned. Indeed, there is an intellectual understanding of what you ' know' and what you 'profess', however, every person who comes to this site will doubt you, even with your credentials, as you have not been accepted into the family!
Just demonstrate your wisdom mind! There are plenty of people here who do demonstrate it, but subtlety is a necessary requirement.
HI....nice to meet you ..
....
Me personally....I'll wait till I know you better before I start to share my attainments/wisdom and my enlightenment opinion on things....hahahaha...See you around........
Yes nice to meet you.
My first thought? That boy has been eating too many mushrooms!
Which is cool. Been there myself.
How much will it cost for my personal mantra @BeyondTheAstral? Looks like you are in the enlightenment business to me.
I thought that too.
Yes, I quite agree.
Look, in my life I have talked to Christians who have told me they talk to God and hear him answer (yes, in an actual voice). I doubt them.
I have talked to a Buddhist who supposedly watched a respected abbot disappear into thin air. I doubt him.
I have talked with people who have seen ghosts. I doubt them.
I have talked to people who have done things psychics have told them to do. I doubt the wisdom.
I have heard the story of Joseph Smith and the Angel Moroni. And I doubt it.
I have heard the story of Jesus feeding the multitude with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. And I doubt it.
Any one, or several, or all of these things may have happened. But there is simply no evidence to support it. Just saying it's so doesn't make it so.
I researched myself, because that's what buddhists should do - and I have come to doubt I really exist as I imagine I should imagine myself to be!
But this does not support either your argument @Vinlyn or @BeyondTheAstral - it serves to outline one thing - our interdependence is necessary and your doubt and all the facts you state and @BeyondTheAstral's statements and BLOG etc serve one purpose in my life - you are both, and all those people mentioned and unmentioned, are necessary for me to exist - cheers!
I'm going to bed!
Good night,
sleep well,
and don't as your drifting off
upon your life dwell!
Anataman!
This thread certainly derailed from "Belief in God"!
The claim to enlightenment does that . . .
It does no one any good, when you get down and examine it courageously. It might 'sell product', briefly. By product I also mean ideas and concepts.
I'm only familiar with the Theravadin monks who gently refuse to disclose (if any) personal attainments. It's a very conservative stance, but that's Theravada for you. As big a drama whore as the generic ego is, a conservative approach to disclosing personal attainment ain't a bad idea.
I've only known folks here for a year or so, but visit at least once daily, sometimes for a minute or less. I've gotten to know several members well enough to believe their money and their mouths are in approximately the same place. If Lobster confessed to me he's in the seamless state of the Deathless or the Unborn I'd
say NO SHIT, really??? Which one of your cushions were you sitting on??ahem, I'd worry his NewBuddhist.com account had been hijacked. If it really were him though, I 'know' him well enough to know he went off his meds. In plain speech, he just wouldn't DO that (too enlightened).BeyondTheAstral -- do you consider Buddhism to be religion?
I guess there is nobody who can stand up and say they have attained to the state of Enlightenment. I am not in this to make any money just guide those who are sincerely seeking the truth - we deliver the goods period
So the service you offer on your website is at no cost? That's great. Not for me though.
We are all sincerely seeking the truth. The Truth delivers the fruit. At each level it seems like "the break through" That is because it is. There is always more until you are there.
For me his discovery of the middle way was a great gift. I would have thought the direction of the Gods was the way. It is a way but not to the goal. There are many wondrous things in the world more than enough to make the Ego happy. They are also true in there own right. The Gods are not all powerful. They have there place. Without them we would not know of heaven. Even if it is only the future.
One thing that "I" know for sure is that the unruly mind can play some elaborate tricks on the unexpected... It's fooled me on more than one occasion .
..
>
I'm not. The only thing I seek is the origin of Suffering and its cessation. Everything else is a bonus.
The more I tread, the clearer it seems to me that it is not God that created Man, but Man that created God.
And some people simply can't let go of the balloon and stand on their own two feet by themselves.
Man needs God. God does not need Man.
I am assuming that by "God" we mean the Biblical character.
I do think Jesus realized his true nature but I don't think even he believed in Abrahams notion of God.
And a website making knowledge claims? I don't get it.