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Should Practising The Dharma Be Fun/Enjoyable ?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Comments
I don't see why not. At very least it should be interesting.
Not in some cases. It should be very serious. The example pics you give are not of practitioners but of human experience in robes.
Those who are overly rigid need to lighten up. People are different. At different stages of unfoldment.
The problem is some people enjoy the trappings of being an ultra-spiritual and others are so serious in their 'practice' they are little more than a wooden statute [sic]
Middle Way. Fun if possible. Not clowning for the sake of ego . . .
It should make you happy, yes.
Not according to some Theravada purists. I tried to find reference to joy, laughter and general mirth in the suttas on access to insight, some time ago, but all I found were basically teachings on how such behaviour is Mindless and an unvirtuous waste of time....
And I truly don't believe a word of it, but some take that line of teaching, literally, very seriously.
Theravada purists = the accursed Hinayana
May they rot in Nirvana and find peace and happiness
Unschooled as I am, It seems to me that the denial of joy is a form of suffering, no? I suppose joy can lead to attachments but It doesn't necessarily have to, does it?
Does it have to be one or the other? If I am not filled with joy and bliss every moment, does it mean the Dharma isn't working? I guess I didn't come to Buddhism to find happiness. I was looking for a missing piece into my self-care and found it. I know how to care for my body. I know how to care for the logical part of my mind. But something was missing to bring it all together. I find health and well-being on a level I never knew before, so even if my practice doesn't always bring me joy and sometimes feels like a chore, it is still helping my well-being and that is why I keep going. Just like exercise. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I hate it. But I know that it is good for me either way.
My teacher would say that yes, it should bring you joy. It brings him great joy. Even the most mundane practices. His devotion is very high. I don't have that level of devotion and sometimes the practices that I don't understand as well as he does are very boring and thus frustrating for me.
For me, practicing the Dharma is a bit like having children. There are moments so full of joy that they bring tears. There are also moments of frustration and "Oh my. What have I gotten myself into??" But in the end, working through the frustration and the fear and everything else just bring more joy, gratitude and appreciation.
For every yum, there's a yuk and vice versa... is that news to anyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together? Naturally there's an inclination to hold onto the yum and avoid the yuk ... is that news to anyone?
And then into the mix comes something blithely referred to as "practicing the Dharma." It sounds important, but in order for it to actually be important, it seems to me the first thing anyone would have to do is find out what the speaker means by "Dharma." That's not a topic I'd touch with a ten-foot pole.
But I do think that actual-factual practice is a possibility ... you know, the sit down, shut up, straighten the spine, focus the mind stuff. Sometimes it's yum and sometimes it's yuk ... never mind what it "should" or "shouldn't" be ... leave that to the Tupperware salesmen. Maybe it's all on a par with brushing your teeth: You do it and sometimes it's kind of nice. But whatever it is, it seems to reduce the number of meetings with the Big Dentist in the metaphorical sky.
Just noodling, obviously.
In Theravada I read one teaching of Ajahn Chah that even the feeling of happiness/fun in meditation need to let go, as same thing with struggling- They are very particular of the mind not to cling on pleasant or unpleasant things. Similar teaching I encountered with Yuttadhammo.
To be clear, this question was not addressed specifically to Federica and I understand that she does not agree with the teachings that she mentioned (I should have quoted her full post).
Rather, this is a question to all. Wouldn't the denial of joy be somewhat akin to the asceticism that Gautama tried and rejected?
Forget the idea that you are "unschooled". Sometimes the unschooled understand things much better than the schooled...just not with all the footnotes. Besides which, virtually no one here is really schooled.
Two thoughts.
First, you're right. Buddhism is not about walking around all the time and being serious. It's about how to conduct yourself in life. And joy is part of life.
The 2 pics have nothing to do with Buddhism just because they happen to be of monks/novices. Buddhism is not everything you do every second of the day (except to a few people on forums like this who have become obsessed). I just cleared the dishwasher; that had nothing to do with Buddhism. I then cleaned the toilet; that had nothing to do with Buddhism. In a few minutes I will be working on some photography; that will have nothing to do with Buddhism. Monks taking a thrill ride; nothing to do with Buddhism. Novice making a face; nothing to do with Buddhism. All those things are just everyday life. But an important part of everyday life is spirituality, however one sees it. A few people don't understand that you can often (not always) multitask and be "spiritual" while you are doing other things. But the 2 are not always intertwined.
And yes, I agree with your later statement about denying joy being akin to being an acetic, which Buddha rejected as the right path.
Thich Naht Hanh said practice should bring us joy and be enjoyable
joy is a form of attachment.
so is suffering.
Both experiences are a part of being human.
Accept they come and go.
do not cling,
and something better then joy will appear.
balance.
@vinlyn "I just cleared the dishwasher; that had nothing to do with Buddhism"...
Offcourse that can have something to do with buddhism, but maybe iam just obsessed??
There is delight connected with the Dharma.
There is joy that comes with insight. Sustained realization is probably a blissful state.
It's easy to become attached to joy and it's especially disappointing when the joy that you have believed is your attainment from practice, slips away when things change and become more difficult.
I still have to remind myself that these cycles occur. Gotta take the bad with the good.
Equanimity brings a more subtle joy, I think.
I felt a great happiness and joy that was bordering on rapture when I first discerned the teaching on anatta.
The photos were just example of Buddhists having fun pulling faces and having a ‘joy’ ride, I just threw them in……..well just for fun
Let’s just say for argument sake (keeping it simple) practicing “Dharma” simply means (after ones got a ‘understanding’ of the 4NTs ) following the 8FP as best as one can…
I find enjoyment is one of the by-products of practice
Metta
I'm also well aware that the Dharma is a raft for crossing over, not for grasping.
I know. Some people aren't happy unless they're unhappy.
@Shoshin
Not Suffering is seriously fun, enjoyable and Dharmic, even when fleeting.
The only folks I know who think that a serious Dharma practice and fun don't go together have delusively chosen constrained behavior over the development of true mindfulness. Lots of hobbled horses out there.
Whether fun or a chore, who is really present for a Dharma practice when thinking it should be one or the other?
some joys arise from discernment, I found two suttas so far that talk about a great joy which I think arises when someone first enters the path, the first one I found was in the Sakka panha sutta, the Buddha asks sakka the deva king if he had ever experienced such happiness and joy, and the second one that I found was in the channa sutta, in that sutta Ananda says to channa that you are capable of understanding the Dhamma, and Channa felt a great rapture & joy at those words.
my teacher says that a sense of enjoyment is a quality of the mind by it's nature as open, clear, and sensitive. It is tricky though because grasping does not lead to joy. So what if you grasp to a fleeting positive feeling? Joy ends. Joy begins. Where is the joy?
Non attachment = joy
So first you want to attach seemingly everything to Buddhism ("@vinlyn "I just cleared the dishwasher; that had nothing to do with Buddhism"... // Offcourse that can have something to do with buddhism, but maybe i am just obsessed??), and now you want to say non attachment is joy.
I am not so attached to Buddhism that I even attempt to attach taking a dump to it.
And I don't want to be.
Clearing the dishwater is just clearing the dishwater.
Taking a dump is just taking a dump.
Meditation is a part of Buddhism.
Being mindful is a part of Buddhism.
I'm trying to imagine "our" reaction if "our" mother-in-law was unloading the dishwasher and we heard her saying, "Dear Lord, thank you for giving me this dishwasher. To show my gratitude to God for this dishwasher I am singing your hosannas with each plate and each cup that I retrieve and place back in its rightful place in your world. For this dishwasher and every dishwasher that blesses the homes of your disciples, thank you dear Lord."
So yes, I see seeing everything in our world through the lens of Buddhism to be obsession.
I wish I was more of a Sutta thumper then I could find the passage where the Buddha says one should be mindful while "taking a dump". Personally I've only had one moment of Vipassana in four years of practice. There was a joy in it that lasted for hours.
@vinlyn
So yes, I see seeing everything in our world through the lens of Buddhism to be obsession.
...........................................................................................................................................
Do you think that view has anything to do with your work at practicing both Buddhism and Christianity, together?
Let's say that I am not going to hold one religion (whether or not it is one that interests me) to a different standard than I hold another religion.
I will pray for our obsessed Mother of Dharma Law whilst on the throne:
Dear and beloved creatures of the hell realms, please accept these defilement from the body as offerings for your well being (they luvs the shitty stuff).
May Tara our Beloved washer of dishes, cleanse our karma and Christian Fiends of Impediments.
OM YA HA HUM
Thank you Lobster. That will settle it!
For me I don't see a reason why I shouldn't see things in a Buddhist perspective, yes its a sort of attachment, but that dosent mean I praise the lord Buddha in everything iam doing, but if you like it or not, its very difficult to put aside the teachings when you know about them, even when you clean the dishes
Namada, you may do anything you like. You may look at things anyway you like. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just discussing the concept.
I simply don't agree (unless you are talking about multitasking, which is a different things).
But please explain to me the Buddhist aspect of emptying the dishwasher. Then perhaps I will understand your perspective.
Multitasking has been debunked.
How so, @bookworm?
This is a good article explaining why it is not possible to do multiple things at the same time.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95256794
Ah yes, I remember reading that not long ago. But I think you're overstating what the article is talking about.
I agree that at any one second you can only do one thing. But in a given time span you can do several.
A good example is a teacher. He or she is teaching a concept (e.g., a math skill), and maintaining discipline, and checking for understanding, etc. No, he or she is not doing all 3 things at exactly the same instant, but they are doing them all within a time frame.
If that makes you joyful that's great!
Joy or sorrow are emotions.
Emotions are feelings with thought labels.
Thought is not self.
Joy can be there. Sorrow can be there. Either way if we see clearly there is no owner of these.
But Its new in each time frame right?
I don't understand that question.
Nevermind, I don't understand my question either lol.
LOL. Cool.
@Shoshin
Yes, I believe it should! Of course everything we do in life, be it the dharmma practice, job, relationships, hobbies, etc, will have up and downs. But we know that there is always something good there, that is why we keep it up.
As many people said, happiness and unhappiness are just emotions. The point of dhahrmma (for me at least) is making you feel calmer, peaceful and, the more you experience those, hardly you will feel unhappy, because you won't rely so much on negativity!
Also, if it is not fun, why not make it fun? I think Ajahn Brahm is great because of that, he talks about adding something fun to everything you do.
After all, isn't that what Dharmma is all about? Make suffering vanishes so, maybe, we can feel blissful joy more frequently? he.
And in all seriousness, I think the joy of no opposites is the joy that has no opposite.
@vinlyn
Why would emptying a dishwasher be any different than the walking meditation in a zendo or on a Theravada walking track except for a judgement conceived that one action is mundane where the other is special. If one is mindful to the task at hand, observing the ebb and flow of all your sense gates as well as ones conditioned responses
to them...then that's a Buddhist meditation in action.
Why would you call one action Buddhist and another action an obsession?
The purpose of meditation in most forms of Buddhism is meant to be taken from the formal or static form into all aspects of daily life. That this is a commitment beyond your present means to accept is your business but when you call another's wish to manifest this understanding, an obsession, then your presentation of his view as being none of your business, rings hollow.
Now I think you could say that **all **sincere religious practice is an obsession, just as you could say that the ego's own maintenance of it's dream world is an obsession, but doesn't that just define an obsession as anything taken more seriously than you are willing to.
Studying the Dharma can at times be hard work (especially for the first couple of hundred life times
) but I've found that once one can actually put what's been learnt into practice ( on a regular bases and begin experiencing the end results so to speak) that when it can be quite enjoyable (It's that unattached (Teflon coated) sense of knowing which puts the smile upon ones face )...
The enjoyable part is experienced in the conventional world (Samsara) and is the by-product of ones Dharma practice, which stems from....an ultimate source/sense of knowing (it's the music playing in the background as one goes about their daily lives and at times it pays to "Pump up the volume" every now and again
)...
But don't just take my word for it etc etc
@How, why keep going on? I can't explain it anymore than I already have. But to summarize in a different way, today was filled with 1,440 minutes. Did you focus on Buddhism for each of those 1,440 minutes?
There is this compulsion (and I used that term intentionally) that some people have to think that everything is related directly to Buddhism. Did Buddha say that? Or did he talk about the parts of life that related directly to reducing/eliminating suffering?
If you don't agree. Fine.
If you don't understand my viewpoint. Fine.
Here it is for your delectation, from MN10:
"Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html
Read the Satipatthana Sutta and decide for yourself:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html
Yes, that's a familiar theme. Though you seem more interested in criticising Buddhism than actually practising it.
@vinlyn I dont know how you can compare:
Obsession versus awarness and wisdom.
If you are obsessed by being aware and gain wisdom, trough your
daily life, yes then you are on the right path I belive.
You would preffer dullnes and ignorance?
And its not about religion, its about your own experience
and practice.