Strange experiences while meditating - subtle body?
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
Lately I've been having some strange experiences on waking and while meditating... I posted a little about this before, here:
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/24446/obstacles-to-meditation
This has basically instead of being just obstacles what I'm now experiencing are some truly weird things, including some spoken fragments, that seem to tie in with physical sensations. The two coordinate, to the extent that I hear things like "now I untie this bit" and I feel something being manipulated on the sole of my foot.
Also I have had a few experiences of felt sensation deep within and around the body, in a kind of ovoid space sometimes filled with a light tinnitus which I can also hear. Sometimes also deeply below the body or in a kind of transparent space co-located with the head, but without there actually being a head there.
Anyone got any ideas what this is? Am I running into something tantric?
Comments
Be careful.
Stay grounded.
When you are as crazy as me, 'trust the mind, do not' [said in my bestest Yoda voice]
You could certainly add a Tantric practice to your Nichiren chanting.
You can self initiate or make a Tantric Center connection ...
http://www.wisdom-tree.com/wisdom/guide.html
http://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/tantra-theory/making-sense-of-tantra/the-meaning-of-tantra#mental-continuums-as-tantras
I've had some weird experiences soon after practicing kundalini yoga, which I may never touch again. I went through a weird energetic upgrade or something that left me drained and confused the next day. I'm somewhat sensitive to energy, but not as much as others.
These days I pretty much stick with Anapanasati and Metta Meditation because I'm not looking to have weird spiritual experiences. I only want to concentrate my mind and generate loving kindness.
I will do reiki occasionally, to handle a painful block, but I want to stay grounded, so I try to stick with only Buddha approved meditation practices taught in the suttas.
I think of it this way. The Buddha probably had access to all manner of psychic abilities blah blah blah. Yet he never saw the need to mention any of them. Apparently they should not be sought out and they are not required to walk the Eightfold Path to Nirvana.
Sounds like Kundalini is starting to get stirred up. Auditory sensations? (Tinnitus, spoken words). How long have you had a meditation practice? Months, years? I would back off, if I were you. You don't want it to take over your body/mind; it can get quite out of control, and there's nothing to be done about it except wait for it to subside (and hope it will, which it may not).
A good book to read is by Gopi Krishna, called "Living with Kundalini", or something like that. See Amazon, they have all his books. It's a very powerful force, and can be incapacitating.
My gut says you might want to switch to only Metta Meditation for a month or so. Focus on loving kindness toward yourself especially. One easy Metta Meditation is simply to put your hand over your heart and compliment yourself. It's very down to earth. No altered states.
I asked a Tibetan buddhist monk of my acquaintance what this could be, or wether he could put me in touch with someone who could shed light on the situation, and he said "sorry can't help, perhaps you can try kundalini yoga or Hindi guru's", which I thought was rather flip and disappointing. You'd think there would be Buddhist methods for investigating and coping with this stuff, maybe an expert or two tucked away.
I certainly think adding kundalini yoga to the mix, which has a reputation for stirring things up, is only likely to make things worse not better. Messing with Hindi tantric gurus sounds like an absolute last resort.
But a different yoga might be worth investigating, it's energetically light and may rebalance some things.
Yoga is grounding. It is a form of Tantra too.
http://www.theyogablog.com/the-tantric-roots-of-hatha-yoga/
This is grounding. It is one of the 'mudra' used in Sufism. It is a form of naming. People when saying their name use this, as in 'my name is' [hand on heart, name given]. I very much agree with @Jayson, manifestation of snakey stuff/kundalini/siddha is always irksome, easily attached to. Spiritual junk.
Well, agreed to a certain extent. Insight into the working of the self can be useful, but I'm not sure how much these kinds of experiences can show, other than flash-and-dazzle special effects. Perhaps the effects can provide some kind of guide on how to proceed, that would be nice.
Mostly I am just concerned how to negotiate it correctly, without damaging myself or others. There are repeating characters and motifs in some of these experiences - a particular recognisable female voice that pops up several times, a concern with managing energy.
What you are doing is kind of like poking a tiger with a stick.
@kerome for many years I was on a kundalini forum. The only consistent 'arising' was of random effects, mostly internal noise manifesting.
My apologibes I was thinking of @Lionduck when mentioning Nichiren. You were rased on Rajneesh kundalini.
I know you would like to hear that your experiences are meaningful chakra openings but my experience is that they are of no more significance than burping from a meal during meditation.
Sorry for being so blunt.
How am I poking a tiger? What stick? These things are currently happening to me despite meditating only very small amounts. They are not welcome, and I haven't sought them out.
I've had a meditation practice for all of a year. Not very long compared to some people.
That is good to know, I will keep it in mind. I do value the opinion of people on here you know
That is reassuring. My chakras can stay closed, I prefer my life peaceful and without too much stress.
However, the fact that these sensations feature some returning characters and cross multiple senses and are somewhat coherent leads me to think something is going on. I'd love to know what?
It certainly doesn't sound like a classic kundalini arising. There's no energy going up the spine for one - I've been doing some reading.
You are welcome to speak plainly, good friend @lobster.
Thanks @Kerome for listening rather than reacting. Bravo. I will start a thread on chakras shortly. You are taking incidently the wise course, which is to pay no heed to anything but peace, equinimity and a stress free basis.
Being blunt carries a risk because many take it as an ego attack from ego. However if directed from our genuine intention to serve and is heard in the same spirit, then we might say 'friendly companionship' and understanding is exercised ...
“It’s vital always to bear in mind that we practise for the sake of all other beings, and that the enormity of this aspiration is what makes dharma practice both extremely powerful and inexhaustible, virtually guaranteeing that the result will be infinitely beneficial.”
― Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse
“Understanding is the heartwood of well-spoken words.” The Buddha in the Kimsila Sutta
http://www.realbuddhaquotes.com/#ath
I work with chakras and Reiki all the time. You can denigrate them all you want, but it has helped me heal and lessen pain post op so don't be too quick to look down your noses people.......
Everything I've said in this thread is in the spirit of goodwill and concern for you.
I've been meditating since 2002. I know that's also a short time for some people.
My concern is the goal you've set for your meditation practice. That is how you may be poking a tiger with a stick.
It seems to me you are looking to meditate to have mystical experiences. The Buddhist goal of meditation is to end suffering, to develop virtue, concentration, and wisdom.
That is why I recommend single pointed breath meditation (keep your focus only on the breath to build up Concentration so you can have mental peace and gain direct insight) and Metta Meditation so you can dwell in the ecstasy of loving kindness.
These two forms of meditation bare the fruit of joy and bliss. Your happiness will grow, grow, grow. Your relationships with everyone around you will soar.
The best way to clear a chakra is by developing concentration and Metta. Point your powerful concentrated mind and kindness toward the blockage.
Cellular memory will be released from your energy field.
Reiki and energy work is often used to wage war with your energy field. You want to zap the hell out of your blockages. The big ones don't really go away for good, do they?
Point loving kindness at them along with your concentrated mind and they dissolve for good.
Does your family have any history of mental illness? Or do you have any history of trauma? I think if meditation is producing these kinds of effects, I would suggest maybe stopping... People have had experiences of triggering mental illness through meditation, or of having their own mental illnesses made worse. It can sometimes be dangerous to go into enquiry by yourself, without a guide. I don't want to worry you unnecessarily, but it sounds like you are possibly hallucinating - it might be very important to reach out to a psychologist, maybe someone who has experience with meditation.
Have you read anything on the research into the negative effects of meditation? http://www.mindful.org/willoughby-britton-the-messy-truth-about-mindfulness/
I am concerned, please try speaking to a professional and please be careful. Don't push forward, only looking at the potential spiritual causes of these things, but look at it from a mental health perspective - you don't want to unhinge yourself. There have been cases of mental illness, such as bipolar disorder, being triggered through meditative practice.
I have a history of trauma and I have PTSD, for this reason and from my own reading, I am reluctant to develop a daily sitting practice. Sitting is not for everyone, but it does not mean we are banished form the spiritual path - we just have to be cautious, listen to ourselves, not ever, ever push too far - these things could be considered as warning signs. The psychologist who is the founder of the psychology I am doing for PTSD - argues that sometimes meditation can trip people too far into repressed trauma (which I feel can be the root of a lot of mental illness), so is advised against.
Yoga can be a good alternative, because you are grounding yourself in the body - without delving too deeply into the mind, but if you find similar effects - I'd also suggest stopping. I'd suggest maybe stopping all spiritual practice, beyond reading and metta until you know what is going on.
You might find this video helpful as well
, on the unexpected effects of meditation practice. It also points out that meditation alone should not be used to tackle troubling material, and advises accessing common therapeutic techniques used in the West. Putting all our eggs into the meditation basket, could leave us a lot worse off...
They mention how seeing EVERY negative thing as part of the path, and to keep mindfully plowing through is quite a naive approach to the practice and can be dangerous. If other things are coming up that can be related to your own personal issues, you should seek support and assistance to work through it.
To put my mind at ease, I have actually consulted a psychiatrist, but he seemed to have very little to offer besides medication, which I'm not keen on. There is no history of mental health disorders in the family, besides my grandmother's nervous breakdown many years ago.
In cases like this you seem to fall between the two catered-for extremes, if you are perfectly healthy you are told to meditate to your heart's content, do retreats and so on by spiritually capable teachers. While if you are really ill, say with psychosis or schizophrenia, you are cared for by mental health professionals and told not to meditate or take anything other than approved meds.
But for something like this, where light meditation is causing some spiritual factors to reveal themselves, neither the spiritual nor the mental health professional wishes to say anything categorical. There is some literature around spiritual emergency, but only scientific papers and books, not treatments.
The meditation i do is a mixture of mindfulness of the breath, insight meditation and occasionally metta, for about 15 minutes at a time. As I said, it's very light, not heavily concentrated zen-style.
Or you can tune into the energy you are attuned to and let it flow, adding various symbols you learn along the way, depending on your aim.
Respectfully, you don't understand how Reiki works. There's no zapping the hell out of anything.
As @lobster advised to stay grounded, one way to do this is to stay relaxed no matter what. If there is an issue that is causing us to feel anything other than relaxed, and cannot be dealt with during meditation, then that issue needs to be addressed first before starting mediation.
Have you considered that the things you are describing are just normal bodily sensations, and the visions you are seeing are just normal actions/reactions of the mind? The tendency to take things personal and dress them to our own inclinations is just one of the many things that the mind is known to do.
lol... I've been a Reiki Master since 2005. And I respectfully disagree.
could you explain a bit what do you mean by insight meditation
Did the psychiatrist say what it might be? Do you experience any symptoms outside of meditation? Yeah, I wish someone had more concrete research on it and could actually help you... I read some note of hallucinations in this article, based on Britton's research - http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350....
I think in regards to being mentally ill, you never want to destabilise someone - so if someone does want to practice in anyway, they should approach it more slowly and while practicing grounding. I think things like psychosis and schizophrenia are sadly under-researced and still kind of taboo (and rarer than other mental illnesses, so less likely to be researched as a result), so they don't fully understand them or know how to treat them...and feel that such cases are people's only options. I feel like there is always a solution though, a way to improve life beyond what is considered normal or possible by mainstream psychology, it's just about finding the right methods or treatment for each person... But that's me getting off topic. I can see how it's frustrating as medication isn't offering you a way to deal with these symptoms so it's a bit of a dead end...and at the same time it seems like this stuff isn't often addressed by meditation teachers. I guess we can just keep digging. I like to try and read up on this area, I will post if i find anything - it sounds bit disturbing or frustrating to not know what is going on...
A simple form of vipassana...
"This type of meditation is commonly practiced sitting with your eyes closed in a comfortable position with the back straight. All attention is focused on the abdominal area during which you are inhaling and exhaling, watching it rising and falling.
Each time a distracting thought comes up that deters your focus from breathing, you simply notice that you became distracted, but don’t react to it – instead remain non-judgmental. Be mindful of any thoughts, let the thought finish and then refocus your attention on your “breath.” Each time you get distracted, shift your focus back to the breathing, but don't be violent, don't drag your thoughts back by main force."
Well I can only take your word for that. IF you are a Reiki Master then perhaps you need to not teach or pass on attunements at this point in time.....
I still think you miss the point of Reiki and its purpose if you think it "zaps" anything. You may be a Master, but I'm actually a working healer and I wholeheartedly disagree.
good
'late experiences' asks you to extend your insight meditation not only to 'sitting with eyes closed' but also to all other postures with eyes opened
for example, when you are doing something 'this late experiences' comes into your mind,
don't you see that itself 'a thought' and if it is a thought, you know now how to deal with it
if we continue this way we are very close to 'seeing Dhamma'
if you turn other ways now, you will slow down the 'seeing Dhamma'
Your misery and anger confirm everything I've said about Reiki. You should turn to metta meditation to soften your heart.
@Kerome
Not to belittle your experience in anyway... But the ego consciousness (ie, the "I" which is as powerful as it is forceful ) through the need to remain 'in control' can play tricks on the mind, for example by producing pseudo-mystical experiences, to meet ones deep craving/desire/longing for such an experience...
I guess it's important not to latch onto 'any' experience had, during a meditation session, just observe the phenomena as they arise and depart, paying them no mind..
Lol. Spoken a true armchair "Master". I'm angry and miserable for calling you out and disagreeing?
Hilarious
Thanks for the laugh this morning, have an awesome day
Watch your manners. Please. Ad Hominem attacks are not welcome here.
There was no need for such a comment, particularly as you've only been here 5 minutes and know nothing about @dhammachick or anyone else for that matter. Given that you're still only 'exploring', I'd counsel care where you tread.
You so called Buddhists are about as warm as Antarctica. I'm outta here. May you find loving kindness in your practice.
What's odd is that the esoteric teachings in TB do deal with kundalini, which they call "Kunda". But most monks don't know anything about it, and there's really not much you can do to alleviate it once it becomes active. You're just stuck with it. I asked a Chinese acupuncturist about it, and he said that trying to treat it with acupuncture only makes it worse. It's too powerful even for acupuncture.
The Sikhs have a whole science about it, which is why they teach Kundalini Yoga; it's designed to clear out energy blockages in the system that contribute to Kunalini's more agonizing symptoms. If there are any Sikhs near you, you might consult with them about what to do. But probably they'd only suggest you take their yoga classes. That might stimulate the energy even more, though.
OP, it doesn't sound like a "classic Kundalini arising" because it's only the very preliminary symptoms; sort of a warning flare across your bow. Auditory phenomena are very much a part of Kundalini rising. As to your wish to understand exactly what's going on--yeah, you and a lot of other people! I think Kundalini needs to be studied by the scientific and/or medical community. I think there's some very unusual things going on in the body, and we should learn what they are, what the body is capable of. For example, I think the electromagnetic properties of the body are involved, which should be important to physicists and doctors; understanding this better could re-write the Anatomy & Physiology textbooks.
But Western science prefers to turn its back on phenomena like this, and insist they're not "real", thereby denying the scientific community as well as Kundalini experiencers, the benefits of understanding what it is and how it works. Denial isn't very scientific, IMO.
Ay caramba. One little iceberg and the HMS Metta Titanic abandons us? Tsk, tsk. Let that be a lesson to us so called Buddhists with bigger Hearts ...
I Googled around, and found this clinical article (linked below). This might have some helpful info, if you don't find it too dry. The article quotes research by Itzhak Bentov, a scientist who researched Kundalini. You may find some relevant info by Googling him or looking him up on Amazon books.
Also, Yvonne Kason is a psychotherapist and an MD who has worked with Kundalini in patients. She published a book, "Farther Shores" (see Amazon), on her experiences, observations and conclusions in relation to her patients. I may be wrong, but I think she has contact info in the book, so you could contact her with questions. Or maybe you could find that by Googling her.
https://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-25-93-01-043.pdf.
Don't forget your coat.
I've been reading up a bit more on my vipassana meditation and apparently the best time to do it is early mornings, before it's fully light, which is not so difficult given that it's winter and full light is 8.45 or so. So I have shifted my daily meditation to that time.
This morning's meditation went quite well, the mind got quiet very quickly and there was kind of like a felt thickness around the abdomen, which increased as the meditation progressed. There were various thoughts which were associated with locations around the body which came up one at a time. No really weird things, and I kept coming back to the breath.
At a certain point though I felt the strong impulse that I was done with the breath in the abdomen, and that I should centre on the head, and an impulse said I should just remain with 'the pressure'. Various images came, of dark pieces of matter like a volcanic stone which were encrusting my head.
Not quite sure what to think of it. What does one do with a shift to the head, do you still follow the breath, or stay in equanimity?
Just as an afterthought, these are your words, @JaySon:
It might be worth giving some thought to putting into practise what you claim....
Be well. I hope you find what you believe you seek.
The door is still open.
Well, I'd say 90% of my posts on this forum have been helpful so far. Only about 10% moronic. I can live with that.
EVERYBODY'S fall into those categories, so you're not alone there (a fair percentage + or - either way)!
Glad you decided to stay.
Cute! If we all did that well...it would be a beautiful world.
Oh! Not gonna take your ball and go home? Kuhl.
Wish I could take credit for such amazing wisdom but I was thinking about Ajahn Brahm's story of the two bad bricks. Haha
@Kerome Many years ago I had a psychotic break that started out benign but led to a dark place. I heard voices and felt odd sensations.
Once I received help and understood what had happened I realized the voices that felt like they were coming from a source outside me was only my own mind. The difference was that some wires became crossed and when they felt like they were from another source I related to them differently and they took on a more powerful life.
I would mainly recommend to not take anything you hear to seriously, in the end its only your subconscious mind trying help. But you give it more power than it deserves it'll start making stuff up too.
You do not have a mental or spiritual emergency from what you are saying. Just normal side effects from a bit of concentrated effort.
If you require advice on vipassana then maybe contact our regular recently ordained Therevada monk for some insight. He is very friendly.
http://jayantha.tumblr.com
Seems fine, Best time for me too.
Mind generates stuff.
All of it, ALL OF IT is empty, nada, bubbles of delusion.
Bonus track:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/theprajnaparamitasutra/a/A-Bubble-In-A-Stream.htm
Speak for yourself hides behind Lobster and a maze of cushions
Tsk, tsk, you might develop a reputation for wisdom.
I tend to aim for 90% moronic communication. This way others gain the merit of putting me right.
[gosh, I iz such a Bodhisattva dhrama queen] 
It's funny, a few days ago there was a voice fragment during meditation which said the word "potassium" which reminded me I've not been taking any multivitamins over the past half year. So I bought some and yesterday and today the character of the experiences has changed, become much more mellow. I've also been having some unusual and wide-ranging dreams, quite artistic ones.
My morning meditation this morning was not so satisfactory today, only about 20 minutes, I couldn't find focus after coming out of sleep and some things from my dreams were hanging around. Kind of like clouds of sensation around the midriff and the solar plexus. I may try waking up and having coffee before meditating, instead of going straight from waking to meditation.
But no real weirdness the last couple of days. Which is a good thing.
I may ask @BhikkhuJayasara's advice on this, I will look him up.
Very valid advice, thank you @person.
I do feel this question in particular confronted me with the fact that I find it hard to believe that my mind would make up such elaborate ruses, and that on some level I kind of want there to be more. It's an inner conflict.
I like to think of myself as an odd sensation
Having psychotic breaks is one of my family traditions.
Exactly. The very source of disquiet has developed a mind sensitivity.
Yes. The subconscious can seem almost supernatural in its ability to provide pertinent or credible information. I regulary talk to Buddhas, Boddhisatvas and myself ... in fact they are all myself. If having auditory or visual feedback that was not on an imaginary/visualisation/controllable level, I would order a white van from the nearest 'spiritual response team' - which unfortunately is not yet widely available ...
http://realitysandwich.com/1800/spiritual_emergencies/
... Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters! ...
These days I too have conversations with wiser beings than myself in my mind in order to gain some insight or resolve a problem I'm having. In the end though I recognize that the other being is a part of my own mind, a creation, a mental model that I think allows a more direct contact with my subconscious. So I always remain skeptical of things they may say and make sure to fact check and demand evidence for any odd claims.
If you consider that Stanislav Grof has been working on spiritual emergency theories since 1985, and it was considered for inclusion in the DSM - the diagnostic manual for psychiatry - in 1993, the inevitable conclusion is that things have been moving backward since the 1980's. Instead of there being a flourishing of interest into psycho-spiritual causes of breakdowns they've moved towards medicalising the rest of humanity in order to prescribe more pills. Go figure.
But yes, not taking things too seriously is a good idea. Staying detached from whatever is going on is generally a good strategy.