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@herbie said:
Now, is this a teaching that teaches you something or is it not? If it doesn't teach anything, for what purpose do you quote it?
It does not teach something. I quote it because it would do you well to try and understand it. It would do everyone well to try and understand it.
What do you think is there to understand about this "teaching" when it does not teach something?
Such questions are not answered by asking others. You need to ask yourself that question. Nothing that I can say can help you.
Sorry but you have said "It would do everyone well to try and understand it." So it's been you who claimed that there is something to understand about this text, not me. Since the claim is yours you are the one to be asked.
I don't expect help from you. I just expect you to back your claim.
@herbie said:
Sorry but you have said "It would do everyone well to try and understand it." So it's been you who claimed that there is something to understand about this text, not me. Since the claim is yours you are the one to be asked.
I don't expect help from you. I just expect you to clarify your claim.
Why? So you can continue arguing about it? No thanks, not interested in that.
@herbie said:
Sorry but you have said "It would do everyone well to try and understand it." So it's been you who claimed that there is something to understand about this text, not me. Since the claim is yours you are the one to be asked.
I don't expect help from you. I just expect you to clarify your claim.
Why? So you can continue arguing about it? No thanks, not interested in that.
your approach is not consistent. One the one hand you say the best teacher for you is one who can't say words of help for you on the other hand you are referring to a text, i.e. words, you obviously consider helpful to be understood but cannot say what it is that is to be understood.
Emptiness sickness?
@herbie said:
your approach is not consistent. One the one hand you say the best teacher for you is one who can't say words of help for you on the other hand you are referring to a text, i.e. words, you obviously consider helpful to be understood but cannot say what it is that is to be understood.
Emptiness sickness?
So you can continue arguing about it?
So you can continue arguing about it...
Like I said, no thanks, not interested in that.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Even if it teaches you nothing, it teaches you that it teaches you nothing. Thus, something is taught.
One of the Buddha's most eloquent teachings involved him merely sitting and saying nothing.
All he did was hold up a flower.
His followers equated precious teachings with many words. Only one person understood...
@herbie said:
your approach is not consistent. One the one hand you say the best teacher for you is one who can't say words of help for you on the other hand you are referring to a text, i.e. words, you obviously consider helpful to be understood but cannot say what it is that is to be understood.
Emptiness sickness?
So you can continue arguing about it?
So you can continue arguing about it...
Like I said, no thanks, not interested in that.
I am not arguing.
It is obvious that the Buddha taught many things that helped countless beings and he also taught emptiness which again helped countless beings.
The Buddha obviously did not perceive a contradiction between his emptiness teachings and all the other teachings. Both consisted of words helpful for countless beings.
Only a misconception of emptiness teachings entails an inability to utter helpful words or to reject the possibility to be of help for others by means of words.
Actually emptiness is the ground for words effecting help.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"A fool is known by a Multitude of Words."
Paintings cannot speak, yet they transmit so much.
"There was an owl, sat in an Oak,
The more he saw, the less he spoke.
The less he spoke, the more he heard -
We should all be like that wise old bird..."
Sit and watch.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Most learning involves more thought, reflection, and cogitation, than listening.
Only by being silent and reflecting, can you give room for absorption and understanding.
Challenge less, take in more.
Would you prefer the term badgering? Yes, I think that would be a better term for it myself too.
Well, I am not a native speaker but I think 'illustrating' is more to the point. From my perspective we're both illustrators, complementing each other to be of help for others.
@herbie said:
Well, I am not a native speaker but I think 'illustrating' is more to the point. From my perspective we're both illustrators, complementing each other.
@herbie said:
Well, I am not a native speaker but I think 'illustrating' is more to the point. From my perspective we're both illustrators, complementing each other.
I think "trolling" is more to the point.
I am certainly not trolling. My illustration is seriously meant. And I do not think you were trolling and thus intentionally misguiding others.
@herbie said:
I am certainly not trolling. My illustration is seriously meant. And I do not think you were trolling and thus intentionally misguiding others.
Yes, you are trolling. I told you I'm not interested but you continue on. That's trolling.
@herbie said:
I am certainly not trolling. My illustration is seriously meant. And I do not think you were trolling and thus intentionally misguiding others.
Yes, you are trolling. I told you I'm not interested but you continue on. That's trolling.
But if you now advance an unfounded reproach should I not contradict? I am not trolling.
Obviously my words above touched you in a way that now leads to that denunciation. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Please accept my apologies.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@seeker242 said:
My teacher once said "Nothing that I can say can help you!"
That's the single most helpful teaching I ever got.
That puts me in mind of something Osho once said, that his words should not be remembered, and that the silence between the words was more important. He spoke a great deal on many subjects, but it was more the sitting there in the hall and feeling all this moving through you that counted.
But different students and different teachers are at different stages. If you @herbie feel you need relevant words then you can seek out such a teacher. It’s all a question of what your inner compass says you need.
Don't give me that. Everybody needs relevant words to enter and follow the or a path. Don't tell me you never listened to a teaching, never read books or texts.
I didn’t say that. The buddha’s first teaching was also in words, and I’ve learned a lot about the dhamma through words. However, there comes a point in the path where the teaching that remains goes beyond words, and Osho also was pointing to that... There are whole Buddhist traditions based on silent meditation, such as Zen.
You may enter the path through words, but at a certain point it is assumed you will develop the ability to absorb the wordless, just through being in the presence of a more advanced practitioner.
@herbie said:
But if you now advance an unfounded reproach should I not contradict? I am not trolling.
Obviously my words above touched you in a way that now leads to that denunciation. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Please accept my apologies.
My reproach is not unfounded. When someone says they are not interested, more than once, and you keep pestering them, that is by definition trolling...
@seeker242 said:
My teacher once said "Nothing that I can say can help you!"
That's the single most helpful teaching I ever got.
That puts me in mind of something Osho once said, that his words should not be remembered, and that the silence between the words was more important. He spoke a great deal on many subjects, but it was more the sitting there in the hall and feeling all this moving through you that counted.
But different students and different teachers are at different stages. If you @herbie feel you need relevant words then you can seek out such a teacher. It’s all a question of what your inner compass says you need.
Don't give me that. Everybody needs relevant words to enter and follow the or a path. Don't tell me you never listened to a teaching, never read books or texts.
I didn’t say that. The buddha’s first teaching was also in words, and I’ve learned a lot about the dhamma through words. However, there comes a point in the path where the teaching that remains goes beyond words, and Osho also was pointing to that... There are whole Buddhist traditions based on silent meditation, such as Zen.
You may enter the path through words, but at a certain point it is assumed you will develop the ability to absorb the wordless, just through being in the presence of a more advanced practitioner.
Well, see I repeatedly said that the conventional is deceptive. Conceptuality and words are/belong to the conventional. So I do not think there is a categorical disagreement as to our views.
A difference may arise - or perhaps not? I do not know - when I say that the deceptive is skillfully used to overcome deception and that the 'wordless' is not necessarily free from deception.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited April 2019
@herbie said:
Well, see I repeatedly said that the conventional is deceptive. Conceptuality and words are/belong to the conventional. So I do not think there is a categorical disagreement as to our views.
A difference may arise - or perhaps not? I do not know - when I say that the deceptive is skillfully used to overcome deception and that the 'wordless' is not necessarily free from deception.
If an understanding of dhamma is firmly established, in words as well as in practice, then you should not fear to encounter the ‘deceptive’. Deception is against Right Speech, and you would have been assumed to have dealt with it. If self-deception is still an issue, I’d advise working more with the klesha’s, the negative mind states.
The difficulty with the wordless is that it is formless, free from judgment except what you inherently bring with you. There is no understanding, there is just Being, and receiving, and learning how to connect with one’s own inner stream.
@herbie said:
Well, see I repeatedly said that the conventional is deceptive. Conceptuality and words are/belong to the conventional. So I do not think there is a categorical disagreement as to our views.
A difference may arise - or perhaps not? I do not know - when I say that the deceptive is skillfully used to overcome deception and that the 'wordless' is not necessarily free from deception.
If an understanding of dhamma is firmly established, in words as well as in practice, then you should not fear to encounter the ‘deceptive’.
Ok, Buddha Dharma is fearlessness.
@Kerome said:
Deception is against Right Speech, and you would have been assumed to have dealt with it.
I think you mean speaking intentionally deceptively is against Right Speech. That's not the meaning of 'deception' I've been applying. Nevermind ...
@Kerome said:
If self-deception is still an issue, I’d advise working more with the klesha’s, the negative mind states.
If the kleshas arise then they arise due to ignorance. Ignorance here is the non-recognition of deception as such.
@Kerome said:
The difficulty with the wordless is that it is formless, free from judgment except what you inherently bring with you. There is no understanding, there is just Being, and receiving, and learning how to connect with one’s own inner stream.
I never came across that concept of 'wordless' before. I've understood 'wordless' literally as 'absence of speech'.
It's funny we seem to be using a different languages
@federica said:
Most learning involves more thought, reflection, and cogitation, than listening.
Only by being silent and reflecting, can you give room for absorption and understanding.
Challenge less, take in more.
Exactly so.
Iz master plan!
When we know, it seems obvious. Genuine teaching is not words, it is example (Sila) and illustration independent of lesser needs such as chatter, questions, need for information, attention and ... ignorance.
A teacher provides what we need. Sometimes we just need a mirror, distorted, flawed or best of all transparent ...
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@herbie said:
Well, see I repeatedly said that the conventional is deceptive. Conceptuality and words are/belong to the conventional. So I do not think there is a categorical disagreement as to our views.
A difference may arise - or perhaps not? I do not know - when I say that the deceptive is skillfully used to overcome deception and that the 'wordless' is not necessarily free from deception.
If an understanding of dhamma is firmly established, in words as well as in practice, then you should not fear to encounter the ‘deceptive’.
Ok, Buddha Dharma is fearlessness.
@Kerome said:
Deception is against Right Speech, and you would have been assumed to have dealt with it.
I think you mean speaking intentionally deceptively is against Right Speech. That's not the meaning of 'deception' I've been applying. Nevermind ...
@Kerome said:
If self-deception is still an issue, I’d advise working more with the klesha’s, the negative mind states.
If the kleshas arise then they arise due to ignorance. Ignorance here is the non-recognition of deception as such.
@Kerome said:
The difficulty with the wordless is that it is formless, free from judgment except what you inherently bring with you. There is no understanding, there is just Being, and receiving, and learning how to connect with one’s own inner stream.
I never came across that concept of 'wordless' before. I've understood 'wordless' literally as 'absence of speech'.
It's funny we seem to be using a different languages
That's another problem.
You're too literal and restricted with regard to understanding of language.
There are more nuances to mere words that you seem to realise.
If Emptiness is Formless, then it should be no surprise that it could be referred to as 'Wordless' also...
@federica said:
If Emptiness is Formless, then it should be no surprise that it could be referred to as 'Wordless' also...
The purse is empty of money. We can speak of the emptiness of the purse in this regard.
See? One should be aware of what kind of emptiness one is talking about.
If I use the term 'emptiness' according to the teaching I am following AND without further qualification like 'emptiness of A' this term refers to the absence of fabrication/imputation/superimposition/elaboration/conceptuality. Thus in this context it is impossible to say 'Emptiness is {this or that}'.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yeah, but we don't all walk the path you're walking, even though all roads lead to Rome...
Thus in this context, it is impossible for YOU to say.
Not for me.
You really should allow for the fact that others have different contexts. Not wrong; not right. Different. And that's completely OK.
From what I gather the "Middle Way" is somewhere between the extremes...So if one speaks only in the ultimate of the ultimate, (somewhat paradoxical cryptic Dharma talk so to 'speak' ...pun intended ) one is for the most part speaking in an extreme manner...
However I'm under the impression if one can adapt ones speech (through skillful means) to so-called run of the mill conventional pointers which point to the ultimate in a down to earth language, a language which both lay practitioners 'beginners & advanced' can digest in their own way...( Ehipassiko...See for them selves...) this would would be more beneficial...( I guess more so for those new to the Dharma)...
Cushion time is for the most part Ultimate time and off the cushion is when we might try to live the Ultimate in a conventional way/manner...
Cushion time = Ultimate Time.
Bravo @Shoshin. Maybe that should be ultimate timelessness ... great concept.
Where do I sit? Who said in the middle?
2
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
It’s an interesting thing how the use of language can be turned into something of a rigid form, where you follow a certain convention and you are no longer speaking your own words but you are writing a second time what you read of other people’s writings.
Some people on this forum are quite creative with their language, while demonstrating good insight into the dharma. It’s an art...
@federica said:
Yeah, but we don't all walk the path you're walking, even though all roads lead to Rome...
Thus in this context, it is impossible for YOU to say.
Not for me.
You really should allow for the fact that others have different contexts. Not wrong; not right. Different. And that's completely OK.
@Shoshin said:
From what I gather the "Middle Way" is somewhere between the extremes...So if one speaks only in the ultimate of the ultimate, (somewhat paradoxical cryptic Dharma talk so to 'speak' ...pun intended ) one is for the most part speaking in an extreme manner...
'ultimate' is only a term of skillful means like 'emptiness'. There isn't an ultimate as there isn't an emptiness.
Nagarjuna:
The teacher taught emptiness as the relinquishment of all views
For whomever emptiness is a view that one is incurable.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Moderator note:
@Kerome said: ...So I was wondering, do you have a specific Buddhist teaching or practice that has greatly helped you?
That all really good people are not necessarily good Buddhists.
And vice versa.
Ok, not strictly speaking a specific Buddhist teaching per se - But it's good enough for Jazz.
Tee Hee! @federica invokes the durgha side of Kali Tara
Another troll exposed, underfed and off on its troll holls ...
I had a luvvly cage for it ... I was going to feed it troll bait (made from herbie free troll meet). Ah well. One day we can keep Bodhi Troll as an Easter Egg ... http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/538944/#Comment_538944
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Bunks said:
Different teachings have helped me more at different times. When I am struggling I can usually find something in my arsenal to help me out ???
I've been trying to single out a specific teaching myself but they all seem to blend into one another like trying to pick the most influential spoke of the wheel.
Putting it that way makes me see the most influential teaching for me would be the one which expounds on the Middle Way. The doctrine of the Two Truths keeps the nihilism at bay and it puts not only Buddhism but Taoism into perspective for me.
3
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
The teacher taught emptiness as the relinquishment of all views
For whomever emptiness is a view that one is incurable.
I understand you are unable to post but in case you are still reading, please compare that Nagarjuna quote to @seeker242 post you began to take issue with. Do you notice a similarity? I too have fallen victim to my own views to the point of missing the obvious.
And nobody said some words spoken in the right way couldn't be helpful but that what they would conceptualize is beyond conceptualization. Trying to use words to convey the power of nonconceptual awareness is quite a pickle.
The teaching is the finger pointing and the truth is the moon being seen.
The teaching of a Western "convert" to Advaita Vedanta, Henri Le Saux (Swami Abhishiktananda) has been my most pivotal influence over the past two years or so, based solely off of a few sparse quotes that I take to be authoritative:
“I really believe that the revelation of the AHAM is perhaps the central point of the Upanishads. And that is what gives access to everything; the ‘knowing’ which reveals all the ‘knowings’. God is not known, Jesus is not known, nothing is known, outside this terribly ‘solid’ AHAM that I am.”
He basically repudiates Christianity, yet I find in his quotes a grounding quality that takes me away from religious distractions. Not to say those don't work for some people.
I too have fallen victim to my own views to the point of missing the obvious.
#metoo
We have to learn/experience/acknowledge for ourselves.
We are blinkered? [shock horror] - indeed we iz. We are logged into our I or have a log in our eye as the Christians (a heretical Buddhist sect) 🙊 say ...
It is why I am so often wrong, someone can put me right (lucky for them) 🥳
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Another teaching that I keep coming back to is “nothing whatsoever should be clung to”. Each time that I lose something this comes up, and I feel like I can let go...
General teaching: Life itself, every moment of every day.
Very well said.
As lay followers and a varied bunch of miscreants (and that is just me) it does not matter too much our inspiration. What matters is our alignment and application.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Lionduck said:
General teaching: Life itself, every moment of every day.
I would very much agree with that, but it is also in how you approach it. Moments that are challenging generally have more to say, they are challenging for a reason. Something in them is triggering an emotion, or a difficult series of thoughts. Then if you have the right level of insight you can make sense of this, and look within to see a measure of your own functioning.
This is why psychologists and psychotherapists who have some experience in the field make such interesting people. They have usually spent a fair amount of time looking into their own depths, and looking into the science of what makes people tick.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I've met some pretty screwed up psychologists and psychotherapists though, I can tell you.
Don't quote me on this, but, from what I given to understand, those in the field of supporting, controlling, assisting and assessing mental health are themselves obliged to attend therapy, in order to be able to unburden themselves of the shit that sticks.
Well, an acquaintance of mine is qualified in child/teen therapy. Letters after her name, on an approved register, and everything.
She counsels and supports the young who need an outlet, a valve by which to let off steam, and find solace and healing through sessions with her.
Her family is one big, complicated and conflicted clusterfuck.
And she told me quite brazenly, while undergoing her own training and counselling, that she cheerfully lied, and skilfully pulled the wool over her own appointed therapist's eyes, and gave nothing away. She completely fooled him, all the while harbouring secret, troubled and anxious thoughts about just how big a clusterfuck her family was. And still is.
Interesting they might be.
I wouldn't trust a single one of them with a bargepole.
I've had 3 myself, all of whom turned out to be far more messed up than I.
several years ago, we received that knock on the door no parent wants to get. Two police officers had come to inform my wife and me that our son (second son) has been in an accident and died. it turned out, while we were clearly "Gut Punched" by the news, we were consoling them, making sure they were all right. (I will not lie, loosing a child at any age is devastating.) After we saw the officers out, I led my wife straight to our "Altar", opened the doors and began our "Prayer", invoking the Dharma Law through "Nam myoho renge kyo" for our son, for the officers and and our entire family.
Later, after reflecting upon the events of that evening and the days which followed, I realized I had become a person who was not overwhelmed, controlled, by life's events, but who could turn even tragedy into a source of growth and strength.
The pain was real -the loss was real. But I controlled, absolutely what I did with it. Each moment is priceless, each person invaluable. What we do, how we react or pro-act with the moments we have and those we meet determines our gain or loss in life. I has and continue to choose pro-action. thus each moment, good or bad in itself become my treasure, my victory, enables me to perhaps encourage and help someone else to stand up, to become a person of victory.
Just a moment of reflection
Peace to all
6
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Lionduck , I have no words. Much metta to you and your wife.
@federica
Everyone has challenges throughout life. We all face the Eight Winds. Imagine you are on a ship powered by sail. When the sails are furled, you are at the mercy of the sea and winds. When you unfurl the sails, the same sea and winds enable you to advance in the direction you choose. The sea is life and the winds are the events, good and bad which assail you throughout life. Faith (the faith in your potential and courage to act) constitutes the sails while action is the unfurling of the sails.
I'll end with this: It is good to have a long life. It is better to have a life lived.
This is why psychologists and psychotherapists who have some experience in the field make such interesting people. They have usually spent a fair amount of time looking into their own depths, and looking into the science of what makes people tick.
There are a number of psychotherapists who are also Buddhist practitioners and very skillful at their job... one that comes to mind is Mark Epstein ....
Hmm...Come to think of it...The Buddha is my psychotherapist...and thanks to him I'm doing okay...for a nutjob
2
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Another teaching that I return to every so often is Thich Nhat Hanh’s “looking deeply”. He often talked about this in the context of interconnectedness, but it is also a key part of insight in general. I’ve found that things often arrange themselves in chains, I think this because I believe that, I believe that because I experienced such.
Comments
Such questions are not answered by asking others. You need to ask yourself that question. Nothing that I can say can help you.
Sorry but you have said "It would do everyone well to try and understand it." So it's been you who claimed that there is something to understand about this text, not me. Since the claim is yours you are the one to be asked.
I don't expect help from you. I just expect you to back your claim.
Why? So you can continue arguing about it? No thanks, not interested in that.
your approach is not consistent. One the one hand you say the best teacher for you is one who can't say words of help for you on the other hand you are referring to a text, i.e. words, you obviously consider helpful to be understood but cannot say what it is that is to be understood.
Emptiness sickness?
So you can continue arguing about it?
So you can continue arguing about it...
Like I said, no thanks, not interested in that.
Even if it teaches you nothing, it teaches you that it teaches you nothing. Thus, something is taught.
One of the Buddha's most eloquent teachings involved him merely sitting and saying nothing.
All he did was hold up a flower.
His followers equated precious teachings with many words.
Only one person understood...
I am not arguing.
It is obvious that the Buddha taught many things that helped countless beings and he also taught emptiness which again helped countless beings.
The Buddha obviously did not perceive a contradiction between his emptiness teachings and all the other teachings. Both consisted of words helpful for countless beings.
Only a misconception of emptiness teachings entails an inability to utter helpful words or to reject the possibility to be of help for others by means of words.
Actually emptiness is the ground for words effecting help.
"A fool is known by a Multitude of Words."
Paintings cannot speak, yet they transmit so much.
"There was an owl, sat in an Oak,
The more he saw, the less he spoke.
The less he spoke, the more he heard -
We should all be like that wise old bird..."
Sit and watch.
Most learning involves more thought, reflection, and cogitation, than listening.
Only by being silent and reflecting, can you give room for absorption and understanding.
Challenge less, take in more.
Would you prefer the term badgering? Yes, I think that would be a better term for it myself too.
Well, I am not a native speaker but I think 'illustrating' is more to the point. From my perspective we're both illustrators, complementing each other to be of help for others.
I think "trolling" is more to the point.
I am certainly not trolling. My illustration is seriously meant. And I do not think you were trolling and thus intentionally misguiding others.
Yes, you are trolling. I told you I'm not interested but you continue on. That's trolling.
But if you now advance an unfounded reproach should I not contradict? I am not trolling.
Obviously my words above touched you in a way that now leads to that denunciation. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Please accept my apologies.
I didn’t say that. The buddha’s first teaching was also in words, and I’ve learned a lot about the dhamma through words. However, there comes a point in the path where the teaching that remains goes beyond words, and Osho also was pointing to that... There are whole Buddhist traditions based on silent meditation, such as Zen.
You may enter the path through words, but at a certain point it is assumed you will develop the ability to absorb the wordless, just through being in the presence of a more advanced practitioner.
My reproach is not unfounded. When someone says they are not interested, more than once, and you keep pestering them, that is by definition trolling...
Well, see I repeatedly said that the conventional is deceptive. Conceptuality and words are/belong to the conventional. So I do not think there is a categorical disagreement as to our views.
A difference may arise - or perhaps not? I do not know - when I say that the deceptive is skillfully used to overcome deception and that the 'wordless' is not necessarily free from deception.
If an understanding of dhamma is firmly established, in words as well as in practice, then you should not fear to encounter the ‘deceptive’. Deception is against Right Speech, and you would have been assumed to have dealt with it. If self-deception is still an issue, I’d advise working more with the klesha’s, the negative mind states.
The difficulty with the wordless is that it is formless, free from judgment except what you inherently bring with you. There is no understanding, there is just Being, and receiving, and learning how to connect with one’s own inner stream.
Ok, Buddha Dharma is fearlessness.
I think you mean speaking intentionally deceptively is against Right Speech. That's not the meaning of 'deception' I've been applying. Nevermind ...
If the kleshas arise then they arise due to ignorance. Ignorance here is the non-recognition of deception as such.
I never came across that concept of 'wordless' before. I've understood 'wordless' literally as 'absence of speech'.
It's funny we seem to be using a different languages
Exactly so.
Iz master plan!
When we know, it seems obvious. Genuine teaching is not words, it is example (Sila) and illustration independent of lesser needs such as chatter, questions, need for information, attention and ... ignorance.
A teacher provides what we need. Sometimes we just need a mirror, distorted, flawed or best of all transparent ...
That's another problem.
You're too literal and restricted with regard to understanding of language.
There are more nuances to mere words that you seem to realise.
If Emptiness is Formless, then it should be no surprise that it could be referred to as 'Wordless' also...
Ehipassiko ....See for your self .....Hmm that's about right
The purse is empty of money. We can speak of the emptiness of the purse in this regard.
See? One should be aware of what kind of emptiness one is talking about.
If I use the term 'emptiness' according to the teaching I am following AND without further qualification like 'emptiness of A' this term refers to the absence of fabrication/imputation/superimposition/elaboration/conceptuality. Thus in this context it is impossible to say 'Emptiness is {this or that}'.
Yeah, but we don't all walk the path you're walking, even though all roads lead to Rome...
Thus in this context, it is impossible for YOU to say.
Not for me.
You really should allow for the fact that others have different contexts. Not wrong; not right. Different. And that's completely OK.
From what I gather the "Middle Way" is somewhere between the extremes...So if one speaks only in the ultimate of the ultimate, (somewhat paradoxical cryptic Dharma talk so to 'speak' ...pun intended
) one is for the most part speaking in an extreme manner...
However I'm under the impression if one can adapt ones speech (through skillful means) to so-called run of the mill conventional pointers which point to the ultimate in a down to earth language, a language which both lay practitioners 'beginners & advanced' can digest in their own way...( Ehipassiko...See for them selves...) this would would be more beneficial...( I guess more so for those new to the Dharma)...
Cushion time is for the most part Ultimate time and off the cushion is when we might try to live the Ultimate in a conventional way/manner...
The Heart Sutra
Cushion time = Ultimate Time.
Bravo @Shoshin. Maybe that should be ultimate timelessness ... great concept.
Where do I sit? Who said in the middle?
It’s an interesting thing how the use of language can be turned into something of a rigid form, where you follow a certain convention and you are no longer speaking your own words but you are writing a second time what you read of other people’s writings.
Some people on this forum are quite creative with their language, while demonstrating good insight into the dharma. It’s an art...
'ultimate' is only a term of skillful means like 'emptiness'. There isn't an ultimate as there isn't an emptiness.
Nagarjuna:
Moderator note:
That all really good people are not necessarily good Buddhists.
And vice versa.
Ok, not strictly speaking a specific Buddhist teaching per se - But it's good enough for Jazz.
Why ?
We shall never know...
Tee Hee!
@federica invokes the durgha side of Kali Tara
Another troll exposed, underfed and off on its troll holls ...
I had a luvvly cage for it ... I was going to feed it troll bait (made from herbie free troll meet). Ah well. One day we can keep Bodhi Troll as an Easter Egg ...
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/538944/#Comment_538944
I've been trying to single out a specific teaching myself but they all seem to blend into one another like trying to pick the most influential spoke of the wheel.
Putting it that way makes me see the most influential teaching for me would be the one which expounds on the Middle Way. The doctrine of the Two Truths keeps the nihilism at bay and it puts not only Buddhism but Taoism into perspective for me.
I understand you are unable to post but in case you are still reading, please compare that Nagarjuna quote to @seeker242 post you began to take issue with. Do you notice a similarity? I too have fallen victim to my own views to the point of missing the obvious.
And nobody said some words spoken in the right way couldn't be helpful but that what they would conceptualize is beyond conceptualization. Trying to use words to convey the power of nonconceptual awareness is quite a pickle.
The teaching is the finger pointing and the truth is the moon being seen.
The teaching of a Western "convert" to Advaita Vedanta, Henri Le Saux (Swami Abhishiktananda) has been my most pivotal influence over the past two years or so, based solely off of a few sparse quotes that I take to be authoritative:
“I really believe that the revelation of the AHAM is perhaps the central point of the Upanishads. And that is what gives access to everything; the ‘knowing’ which reveals all the ‘knowings’. God is not known, Jesus is not known, nothing is known, outside this terribly ‘solid’ AHAM that I am.”
He basically repudiates Christianity, yet I find in his quotes a grounding quality that takes me away from religious distractions. Not to say those don't work for some people.
Does he repudiate repudiating?🤪
#metooWe have to learn/experience/acknowledge for ourselves.
We are blinkered? [shock horror] - indeed we iz. We are logged into our I or have a log in our eye as the Christians (a heretical Buddhist sect) 🙊 say ...
It is why I am so often wrong, someone can put me right (lucky for them) 🥳
Another teaching that I keep coming back to is “nothing whatsoever should be clung to”. Each time that I lose something this comes up, and I feel like I can let go...
Specific Buddhist teaching: The Lotus Sutra as applied by SGI Nichiren Buddhism.
General teaching: Life itself, every moment of every day.
Peace to all
Very well said.
As lay followers and a varied bunch of miscreants (and that is just me) it does not matter too much our inspiration. What matters is our alignment and application.
Wake up. Be kind. Be present. Be genuine. Be generous to others.
https://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/04/10-reasons-why-buddhism-is-better-than-your-religion/
I would very much agree with that, but it is also in how you approach it. Moments that are challenging generally have more to say, they are challenging for a reason. Something in them is triggering an emotion, or a difficult series of thoughts. Then if you have the right level of insight you can make sense of this, and look within to see a measure of your own functioning.
This is why psychologists and psychotherapists who have some experience in the field make such interesting people. They have usually spent a fair amount of time looking into their own depths, and looking into the science of what makes people tick.
I've met some pretty screwed up psychologists and psychotherapists though, I can tell you.
Don't quote me on this, but, from what I given to understand, those in the field of supporting, controlling, assisting and assessing mental health are themselves obliged to attend therapy, in order to be able to unburden themselves of the shit that sticks.
Well, an acquaintance of mine is qualified in child/teen therapy. Letters after her name, on an approved register, and everything.
She counsels and supports the young who need an outlet, a valve by which to let off steam, and find solace and healing through sessions with her.
Her family is one big, complicated and conflicted clusterfuck.
And she told me quite brazenly, while undergoing her own training and counselling, that she cheerfully lied, and skilfully pulled the wool over her own appointed therapist's eyes, and gave nothing away. She completely fooled him, all the while harbouring secret, troubled and anxious thoughts about just how big a clusterfuck her family was. And still is.
Interesting they might be.
I wouldn't trust a single one of them with a bargepole.
I've had 3 myself, all of whom turned out to be far more messed up than I.
several years ago, we received that knock on the door no parent wants to get. Two police officers had come to inform my wife and me that our son (second son) has been in an accident and died. it turned out, while we were clearly "Gut Punched" by the news, we were consoling them, making sure they were all right. (I will not lie, loosing a child at any age is devastating.) After we saw the officers out, I led my wife straight to our "Altar", opened the doors and began our "Prayer", invoking the Dharma Law through "Nam myoho renge kyo" for our son, for the officers and and our entire family.
Later, after reflecting upon the events of that evening and the days which followed, I realized I had become a person who was not overwhelmed, controlled, by life's events, but who could turn even tragedy into a source of growth and strength.
The pain was real -the loss was real. But I controlled, absolutely what I did with it. Each moment is priceless, each person invaluable. What we do, how we react or pro-act with the moments we have and those we meet determines our gain or loss in life. I has and continue to choose pro-action. thus each moment, good or bad in itself become my treasure, my victory, enables me to perhaps encourage and help someone else to stand up, to become a person of victory.
Just a moment of reflection
Peace to all
@Lionduck , I have no words. Much metta to you and your wife.
@federica
Everyone has challenges throughout life. We all face the Eight Winds. Imagine you are on a ship powered by sail. When the sails are furled, you are at the mercy of the sea and winds. When you unfurl the sails, the same sea and winds enable you to advance in the direction you choose. The sea is life and the winds are the events, good and bad which assail you throughout life. Faith (the faith in your potential and courage to act) constitutes the sails while action is the unfurling of the sails.
I'll end with this: It is good to have a long life. It is better to have a life lived.
Peace to you
There are a number of psychotherapists who are also Buddhist practitioners and very skillful at their job... one that comes to mind is Mark Epstein ....
Hmm...Come to think of it...The Buddha is my psychotherapist...and thanks to him I'm doing okay...for a nutjob
Another teaching that I return to every so often is Thich Nhat Hanh’s “looking deeply”. He often talked about this in the context of interconnectedness, but it is also a key part of insight in general. I’ve found that things often arrange themselves in chains, I think this because I believe that, I believe that because I experienced such.
Different teachers and different teachings have helped me at various times.
It’s good to have lots of weapons in your arsenal.
😁🙏
Thats true, and knowing the names of them and their teachings is particularly helpful, which is a good reason for having a topic like this