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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I was too long a Roman Catholic to put personal credence, reliance or attention, in/to a Deity.
WE are born alone, we die alone.
In between, for my part, I try to emanate good feelings, speak good words and base my actions on good deeds.
I don't succeed as much as I would like, but I do a whole lot better listening and paying attention to The Buddha, than I ever managed to, by "listening" to God...
Sorry.
Just my worthless 'monopoly-Money' 2 cents.
Apology accepted [on behalf of Almighty Cod]
We listen to god, if She speaks back, we talk to a psychiatrist or Ye Olde Pope about Canonization … https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization
There I was [and this is a true story] not taken in by certainty.
Within humanity and Goldilocks, there is change, chaos and uncertainty. [Lao Tzu is cheering from his olde seat].
God does not die, in every multiverse, some are bereft of Buddhas … and eternal looping back into a past joining their future.
What is beyond omni-potence? Who can think of such impossibilities? Not me!
@Vimalajati As I mentioned in a previous post, God is wholly present, which, yes, means Love is wholly present.
When I also mentioned that “Hell is the absence of God”, it was in emphasis that “Hell” is a spiritual state or condition of the soul, and not a physical place, which it is often imagined, but rather an intelligible place, meaning it can be comprehended.
That being said, the ever present Love of God is not always perceived by the heart especially when it is inflamed with the passions and darkened by sin, of which the conceit of self-love (pride) is the root. In this state, the soul is spiritually dead.
A soul that turns toward God in repentance and prayer recognizes in himself that all his days have been consumed in vanity (Psalm 78:33) and that Hades is his house. Nothing he has done or can do is worthy of the Kingdom of Love. When man confesses his sinfulness (inclination to sin) and his dependence upon God’s mercy and grace for his salvation, he is infallible and true.
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble (James 4.6).”
It is important to note that St Silouan was living a life of repentance, within the Church, and in prayerful communion with God. He had and does have a living relationship with the Persons of the Holy Trinity.
The revelatory word heard in his soul, "keep thy mind in hell and despair not" was Christ’s response to his prayerful supplication, “Lord, teach me what I must do that my soul may become humble.”
The revelation is not new, but the expression is fresh. It was given to him for the humbling of his soul. A means to save him from temptation and proud thoughts. It is simply of remembrance; to keep in mind with humility one’s worthiness of hell, but not to despair, because God is merciful, compassionate, and loves us unconditionally.
These words from St Sophrony and St Silouan might provide a backdrop with which to better understand the teaching in question far more than I ever could provide.
St Sophrony: “It would seem natural for many logically-minded people to be confused by the idea that man for a certain while may existentially be introduced to the eternal life. It is obviously inconsistent to speak of temporarily becoming eternal. But let me try to explain.
Time and eternity, as understood by the ascetic, are two different modes of being. Time is a mode of the creature, incomprehensibly created by God out of nothing, and for ever quickening and evolving. Eternity is the mode of Divine being to which our human conceptions of extension and succession do not apply. Eternity is a unique act of Divine being, an act of incomprehensible fullness, which, being transcendent, embraces in one point all the dimensions of the created world. Only the One God is eternal in substance. Eternity is not an abstraction, and entity existing separately, but is God Himself in His own Being. When it is God's good pleasure to give man grace and make him a partaker in Divine life, man becomes, not only immortal in the sense of having his life endlessly prolonged, but beginningless, too, for the sphere of Divine life into which he is lifted has neither beginning nor end. By 'beginningless', I do not mean to imply a pre-existence of the soul or a transmutation of our created nature into unoriginate Divine nature - I mean a sharing in God's unoriginate life consequent on the deification of the creature by an act of grace.
Man discovers his real self at the deepest roots of his nature when mind and heart, turned towards Christ, are joined - not by his own efforts but by the action of God - in mystic union. He then, as an immortal hypostasis (person), his mind made in God's image, his spirit godlike, sightlessly beholds God. Yet so long as he is tied to the flesh, his knowledge will not attain to perfection. He will not be able to fathom what his eternal existence will be like after he has traversed the last stage of his earthly one - that is, been delivered of the grossness of the earthly body and, unburdened, has entered 'into that within the veil', should God see fit to receive his soul. But he will not wonder about eternal life in movements of vision when his soul is entirely in the eternal God and does not know whether she is in the body or outside it, but only when the soul sees the world again and once more feels herself fettered by her corporeal bonds.
Man does not possess eternal life in himself - that is, within the confines of his created being, He becomes eternal by the gift of grace when he communicates in the Divine life, yet here below this experience of eternity does vary in might. In so far as we are in God, we are eternal. In so far is meant here, not in a quantitative sense but applies to the nature of the gift granted by God.”
St Silouan: “The soul in a state of vision has no questions to ask. She does not bring about her own will the indescribable act which introduces her into the divine world, because she cannot desire what she has never known. Still, this act does not take place without her participation, in that at some preliminary moment of her own free will she ardently aspires towards God in the keeping of His commandments (Mt 22:37-40). The prelude to the vision is suffering and the repentance which comes from the deep heart, those scalding tears that burn up in man the pride of flesh and spirit.
Man while he is in the flesh cannot attain to the perfect knowledge but God does give him an actual, indubitable, existential experience of the Eternal Kingdom. He may know in part, but his knowledge is sure.
St Sophrony: “He who is made in the ‘image’ of God is made for life ‘after His likeness’, also. The man who has found salvation in God receives life in the likeness of God’s own life. God is omnipresent and omniscient, and the saints in the Holy Spirt receive a likeness of that omnipresence and omniscience. God is Light, and the saints in the Holy Spirit become light. God is Love encompassing all that exists, and the saints in the Holy Spirit embrace the universe in their love. God is All-Holy, and the saints in the Holy Spirit are holy. Holiness is not an ethical but an ontological concept. A man is not holy because his morals or conduct are good, or even because he leads a righteous life in the sense of devoting himself to spiritual endeavor and prayer - indeed, the Pharisees kept the fasts and made ‘long’ prayers. But that man is holy who bears within himself the Holy Spirit. The One God is Truth and Life, and those who communicate in the Holy Spirit become true and have life; whereas those who fall away from God suffer spiritual death and depart into ‘outer darkness’.”
You said the words of God are impermanent and the cause of suffering; however, the words are from eternity and give eternal life.
Is the enlightened speech of the Tathagata impermanent and the cause of suffering?
You ask why does God need to give advice to man. The Love of God for man and His desire that he be saved from corruption and death and enter into union and eternal life with Him and fulfill his created purpose is the reason”; however, God will not violate the spiritual freedom man is endowed with and force upon man His will or Divine commandments of love. To do so would not be love but would be tyranny.
If all beings have the awakened mind already present why would the Tathagata need to teach or give advice?
I think we've had some kind of miscommunication. I'll see if I can right some misconceptions.
@Silouan said:
You said the words of God are impermanent and the cause of suffering; however, the words are from eternity and give eternal life.
The central paradox is God "himself" saying to "keep" the mind in hell. Using Buddhist momentary analysis was a theoretical aside, one ultimately dismissed by me as "an utterly foreign hermeneutic to Abrahamic religion." The paradox is not solved in that manner.
You ask why does God need to give advice to man.
I don't recall having asked that, truth be told. Where did you find it in the text I offered? I'm open to me having forgot something that I said. What I wanted to point out is the paradox of God "himself" telling you to "keep" your mind in hell. If God is speaking to you, you aren't "in hell." Not even symbolically are you in hell if God speaks to you. People all over the globe who are on the fence about Christianity are looking for just such a miracle to confirm the presence of God and dispel the non-presence of God.
I don't offer a solution to the paradox. The Christian tradition has numerous exegeses that we can turn to which all elaborate the cryptic statement along Christian lines of interpretation. You yourself have linked to one of those.
As for your last question, I do not believe that non-Buddhas are Buddhas. Non-Buddhas are only "Buddhas" in the most general sense, being sentient beings with no nature, thus sharing "the Buddha's nature." This doesn't mean that they have "the awakened mind."
It's pretty simple to me. God is one, nondual, all that is seen and unseen. God is a unity and the ground of being. But God is expressed through and within relationships. The nondual aspect is represented in nibbana, the deathless, the unconditioned, etc.; the relational aspect is represented in things like kamma, dependent co-arising, this//that conditionality, etc. Kamma, for example, can be viewed as God's will, with unskillful or harmful action corresponding to sin. And ultimately, we seek union with God, the deathless, the unconditioned. If you can find a way to understand and incorporate those aspects of God, then I think you can understand and incorporate Christianity and Buddhism. Stick with the mystics of each tradition, and you'll end up in the right direction.
I find Buddhism a meaningful practice and belief of interconnection. I am uplifted through my practice, and more a part of and in full appreciation of life and those I interact with. Each day I strive uplift or encourage one person, through my words or action. (Of course, being a common mortal, I do not always succeed) The path of Buddhism is not detachment from but connection with this mundane world. The challenge of Buddhism is to face the world, head on. It is to live, to use the winds of fortune and adversity to propel self and others ahead - to victoriously cross the sea of suffering - to recognize that it is not one of suffering but rather of challenge which enables us to grow. The practice of Buddhism (to me) is ultimately one of celebration and the emerging joy of life.
@Vimalajati No worries, about any miscommunication.
St Silouan was not experiencing “hell” at the moment of the revelation. He was in personal communion with the Lord through prayer. The revelation was given to him as a method of repentance and self-reproach for remedying temptations and proud thoughts.
With regard to people sitting on the fence waiting for a miracle to prove or disprove the presence of God, I think this comes from disbelief and skepticism.
One could witness or experience many miracles and still not believe. As we see in the Gospel texts, many people witnessed and still did not believe.
Today, it could be suggested to visit this church and witness the incorrupt relics of a certain saint, or visit that church and witness the myrrh streaming icons; however, if one’s heart is already full of disbelief, these miracles would be dismissed outright or explained away anyway.
Given the limited amount of time, I think the person who produced this video provided a very respectable introductory overview of the Eastern Orthodox mystical tradition of prayer called Hesychasm.
The following commentary by St Sophrony explains the Orthodox Christian view of detachment, which is also an aspect of Hesychasm:
“Detachment from the world is not a renunciation of created life in the sense of a rejection or denial of it as an illusion. Nor is it a poetic or philosophical flight into the realm of lofty and beautiful images or ‘pure’ ideas which sooner or later lead into an imaginary world. No, this detaching is a yearning for the true and living God because of our love for Him, because of our calling to live in Him, the End of ends and the Value of values.”
Comments
I was too long a Roman Catholic to put personal credence, reliance or attention, in/to a Deity.
WE are born alone, we die alone.
In between, for my part, I try to emanate good feelings, speak good words and base my actions on good deeds.
I don't succeed as much as I would like, but I do a whole lot better listening and paying attention to The Buddha, than I ever managed to, by "listening" to God...
Sorry.
Just my worthless 'monopoly-Money' 2 cents.
Apology accepted [on behalf of Almighty Cod]
We listen to god, if She speaks back, we talk to a psychiatrist or Ye Olde Pope about Canonization …
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization
See 1:27 for historical footage of a canonization.
Pretty accurate...!
It's funny really ...for many in the god-centric West it was the other way round ..
From theism (a belief in a god) to non theistic ( Buddhist practice)
There I was [and this is a true story] not taken in by certainty.
Within humanity and Goldilocks, there is change, chaos and uncertainty. [Lao Tzu is cheering from his olde seat].
God does not die, in every multiverse, some are bereft of Buddhas … and eternal looping back into a past joining their future.
What is beyond omni-potence? Who can think of such impossibilities? Not me!
@Vimalajati As I mentioned in a previous post, God is wholly present, which, yes, means Love is wholly present.
When I also mentioned that “Hell is the absence of God”, it was in emphasis that “Hell” is a spiritual state or condition of the soul, and not a physical place, which it is often imagined, but rather an intelligible place, meaning it can be comprehended.
That being said, the ever present Love of God is not always perceived by the heart especially when it is inflamed with the passions and darkened by sin, of which the conceit of self-love (pride) is the root. In this state, the soul is spiritually dead.
A soul that turns toward God in repentance and prayer recognizes in himself that all his days have been consumed in vanity (Psalm 78:33) and that Hades is his house. Nothing he has done or can do is worthy of the Kingdom of Love. When man confesses his sinfulness (inclination to sin) and his dependence upon God’s mercy and grace for his salvation, he is infallible and true.
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble (James 4.6).”
It is important to note that St Silouan was living a life of repentance, within the Church, and in prayerful communion with God. He had and does have a living relationship with the Persons of the Holy Trinity.
The revelatory word heard in his soul, "keep thy mind in hell and despair not" was Christ’s response to his prayerful supplication, “Lord, teach me what I must do that my soul may become humble.”
The revelation is not new, but the expression is fresh. It was given to him for the humbling of his soul. A means to save him from temptation and proud thoughts. It is simply of remembrance; to keep in mind with humility one’s worthiness of hell, but not to despair, because God is merciful, compassionate, and loves us unconditionally.
These words from St Sophrony and St Silouan might provide a backdrop with which to better understand the teaching in question far more than I ever could provide.
St Sophrony: “It would seem natural for many logically-minded people to be confused by the idea that man for a certain while may existentially be introduced to the eternal life. It is obviously inconsistent to speak of temporarily becoming eternal. But let me try to explain.
Time and eternity, as understood by the ascetic, are two different modes of being. Time is a mode of the creature, incomprehensibly created by God out of nothing, and for ever quickening and evolving. Eternity is the mode of Divine being to which our human conceptions of extension and succession do not apply. Eternity is a unique act of Divine being, an act of incomprehensible fullness, which, being transcendent, embraces in one point all the dimensions of the created world. Only the One God is eternal in substance. Eternity is not an abstraction, and entity existing separately, but is God Himself in His own Being. When it is God's good pleasure to give man grace and make him a partaker in Divine life, man becomes, not only immortal in the sense of having his life endlessly prolonged, but beginningless, too, for the sphere of Divine life into which he is lifted has neither beginning nor end. By 'beginningless', I do not mean to imply a pre-existence of the soul or a transmutation of our created nature into unoriginate Divine nature - I mean a sharing in God's unoriginate life consequent on the deification of the creature by an act of grace.
Man discovers his real self at the deepest roots of his nature when mind and heart, turned towards Christ, are joined - not by his own efforts but by the action of God - in mystic union. He then, as an immortal hypostasis (person), his mind made in God's image, his spirit godlike, sightlessly beholds God. Yet so long as he is tied to the flesh, his knowledge will not attain to perfection. He will not be able to fathom what his eternal existence will be like after he has traversed the last stage of his earthly one - that is, been delivered of the grossness of the earthly body and, unburdened, has entered 'into that within the veil', should God see fit to receive his soul. But he will not wonder about eternal life in movements of vision when his soul is entirely in the eternal God and does not know whether she is in the body or outside it, but only when the soul sees the world again and once more feels herself fettered by her corporeal bonds.
Man does not possess eternal life in himself - that is, within the confines of his created being, He becomes eternal by the gift of grace when he communicates in the Divine life, yet here below this experience of eternity does vary in might. In so far as we are in God, we are eternal. In so far is meant here, not in a quantitative sense but applies to the nature of the gift granted by God.”
St Silouan: “The soul in a state of vision has no questions to ask. She does not bring about her own will the indescribable act which introduces her into the divine world, because she cannot desire what she has never known. Still, this act does not take place without her participation, in that at some preliminary moment of her own free will she ardently aspires towards God in the keeping of His commandments (Mt 22:37-40). The prelude to the vision is suffering and the repentance which comes from the deep heart, those scalding tears that burn up in man the pride of flesh and spirit.
Man while he is in the flesh cannot attain to the perfect knowledge but God does give him an actual, indubitable, existential experience of the Eternal Kingdom. He may know in part, but his knowledge is sure.
St Sophrony: “He who is made in the ‘image’ of God is made for life ‘after His likeness’, also. The man who has found salvation in God receives life in the likeness of God’s own life. God is omnipresent and omniscient, and the saints in the Holy Spirt receive a likeness of that omnipresence and omniscience. God is Light, and the saints in the Holy Spirit become light. God is Love encompassing all that exists, and the saints in the Holy Spirit embrace the universe in their love. God is All-Holy, and the saints in the Holy Spirit are holy. Holiness is not an ethical but an ontological concept. A man is not holy because his morals or conduct are good, or even because he leads a righteous life in the sense of devoting himself to spiritual endeavor and prayer - indeed, the Pharisees kept the fasts and made ‘long’ prayers. But that man is holy who bears within himself the Holy Spirit. The One God is Truth and Life, and those who communicate in the Holy Spirit become true and have life; whereas those who fall away from God suffer spiritual death and depart into ‘outer darkness’.”
You said the words of God are impermanent and the cause of suffering; however, the words are from eternity and give eternal life.
Is the enlightened speech of the Tathagata impermanent and the cause of suffering?
You ask why does God need to give advice to man. The Love of God for man and His desire that he be saved from corruption and death and enter into union and eternal life with Him and fulfill his created purpose is the reason”; however, God will not violate the spiritual freedom man is endowed with and force upon man His will or Divine commandments of love. To do so would not be love but would be tyranny.
If all beings have the awakened mind already present why would the Tathagata need to teach or give advice?
I think we've had some kind of miscommunication. I'll see if I can right some misconceptions.
The central paradox is God "himself" saying to "keep" the mind in hell. Using Buddhist momentary analysis was a theoretical aside, one ultimately dismissed by me as "an utterly foreign hermeneutic to Abrahamic religion." The paradox is not solved in that manner.
I don't recall having asked that, truth be told. Where did you find it in the text I offered? I'm open to me having forgot something that I said. What I wanted to point out is the paradox of God "himself" telling you to "keep" your mind in hell. If God is speaking to you, you aren't "in hell." Not even symbolically are you in hell if God speaks to you. People all over the globe who are on the fence about Christianity are looking for just such a miracle to confirm the presence of God and dispel the non-presence of God.
I don't offer a solution to the paradox. The Christian tradition has numerous exegeses that we can turn to which all elaborate the cryptic statement along Christian lines of interpretation. You yourself have linked to one of those.
As for your last question, I do not believe that non-Buddhas are Buddhas. Non-Buddhas are only "Buddhas" in the most general sense, being sentient beings with no nature, thus sharing "the Buddha's nature." This doesn't mean that they have "the awakened mind."
I figured out what you were talking about. It's here:
It was supposed to say "that advice." Sorry for the miscommunication.
It's pretty simple to me. God is one, nondual, all that is seen and unseen. God is a unity and the ground of being. But God is expressed through and within relationships. The nondual aspect is represented in nibbana, the deathless, the unconditioned, etc.; the relational aspect is represented in things like kamma, dependent co-arising, this//that conditionality, etc. Kamma, for example, can be viewed as God's will, with unskillful or harmful action corresponding to sin. And ultimately, we seek union with God, the deathless, the unconditioned. If you can find a way to understand and incorporate those aspects of God, then I think you can understand and incorporate Christianity and Buddhism. Stick with the mystics of each tradition, and you'll end up in the right direction.
Adding my bit of ignorance to the mix:
I find Buddhism a meaningful practice and belief of interconnection. I am uplifted through my practice, and more a part of and in full appreciation of life and those I interact with. Each day I strive uplift or encourage one person, through my words or action. (Of course, being a common mortal, I do not always succeed) The path of Buddhism is not detachment from but connection with this mundane world. The challenge of Buddhism is to face the world, head on. It is to live, to use the winds of fortune and adversity to propel self and others ahead - to victoriously cross the sea of suffering - to recognize that it is not one of suffering but rather of challenge which enables us to grow. The practice of Buddhism (to me) is ultimately one of celebration and the emerging joy of life.
Peace to all
This might be relevant (at least the first half):
https://faithandcapital.buzzsprout.com/262450/10178846-100-mysticism-and-criticism-and-self-criticism-w-brett-o-shea-revolutionary-left-radio
I like it already. Where do I sign up, preferably with god's blood … oops
Buddhism is focussed on sukha.
Ah, happily do we live, Without hate among the hostile; Among hostile people, We live free from hatred.
Dhammapada 197
https://tricycle.org/magazine/pleasure-and-pain/
Which reminds me of Alan Wallace's The Dharma
@Vimalajati No worries, about any miscommunication.
St Silouan was not experiencing “hell” at the moment of the revelation. He was in personal communion with the Lord through prayer. The revelation was given to him as a method of repentance and self-reproach for remedying temptations and proud thoughts.
With regard to people sitting on the fence waiting for a miracle to prove or disprove the presence of God, I think this comes from disbelief and skepticism.
One could witness or experience many miracles and still not believe. As we see in the Gospel texts, many people witnessed and still did not believe.
Today, it could be suggested to visit this church and witness the incorrupt relics of a certain saint, or visit that church and witness the myrrh streaming icons; however, if one’s heart is already full of disbelief, these miracles would be dismissed outright or explained away anyway.
I was blessed to witness this holy icon three times.
I was fortunate enough to have a Theravadan Monk make offerings for me at the Temple of the Tooth in Sri Lanka several years ago.
This temple holds the relic of the Buddha's tooth.
Very special!
Watch from about 6:15 onwards
How fortunate.
From what I know it is rather large. Possibly belonging to an elephantine incarnation. I have also been unable to confirm if it is ever cleaned with a special brush. That would be … the holy toothbrush …
https://www.lastprophet.info/the-prophets-toothbrush-miswak-—-the-wonder-twig
… and now back to the real relics … whilst I go cleaning my tongue with soap …
I’ll bite my tongue while you wash your tongue @lobster
Given the limited amount of time, I think the person who produced this video provided a very respectable introductory overview of the Eastern Orthodox mystical tradition of prayer called Hesychasm.
The following commentary by St Sophrony explains the Orthodox Christian view of detachment, which is also an aspect of Hesychasm:
“Detachment from the world is not a renunciation of created life in the sense of a rejection or denial of it as an illusion. Nor is it a poetic or philosophical flight into the realm of lofty and beautiful images or ‘pure’ ideas which sooner or later lead into an imaginary world. No, this detaching is a yearning for the true and living God because of our love for Him, because of our calling to live in Him, the End of ends and the Value of values.”