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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
It’s definitely true that games still have a draw for me. But that’s what I am doing in this thread, unfolding in detail what it is that draws me, and what my more spiritual side has been telling me about them. I wasn’t really aware of what played with this for me, just that I noticed that even after ten years of not playing games there was still this occasional strong enthusiasm for them, and particularly for role playing games and open-world adventures and strongly story-driven shooters.
I’m kind of hoping that by exploring it, and by making clear the factors that draw me, I can find a release from it — I can find out whether the things that enthuse me have value, or not. The question is whether engaging with games is beneficial in some way. What I was quoting in the “Non-Buddhist quotes” topic yesterday from U.G. about thoughts and them actually being the sum total of your own personal samsara is similar. Games are an exploration of the imagination, all the possible worlds that might be, and as such are an “endless subject”.
I’ve arrived at the point where I found that role playing games satisfied certain needs in me, such as the “need to be needed”, the desire to do good, the desire to explore and be free. In games these things are available in a way that they aren’t in real life. But is that a basic need or some kind of a psychological result of my childhood, some result of a trauma which is as-yet unaddressed or some form of deep-seated conditioning?
I’m toying with the idea of writing a book about it, by now I have a pretty deep understanding of games, and I’ve explored my own perspectives more. It’d be about the history, design, theory and spiritual aspects of games.
Well spotted though, I’ve always enjoyed maker / crafting hobbies. I’ve gone a fair way into pottery and wood crafting in the past but currently lack a good place for a workshop. When I was young I used to love Lego, I had this big basket full of pieces and would make all sorts of things. It was the imagination, making something and then using it in an imaginary adventure with other pieces.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
@Jeroen said:
A friend on another Buddhist forum recommended to me to not judge too harshly, and try to approach these behaviours with mindfulness and awareness instead of just dropping them immediately. He said, if you judge the behaviour and you turn your back on it, you end up repressing the passion you once had for it. Instead, try and make the whole cycle of thoughts and feelings associated with it conscious.
Recalling this post from the first page of this topic, I do think passion has a lot to do with it. When I was playing the table-top game Ticket To Ride at my cousin’s house, I noticed being pleased whenever I could achieve one of my small goals, and I was positively glowing at my overall victory. It made me feel much more alive.
Noticing these things as I was playing required a bit more awareness than I usually display, so a little bit of concentration. It was a good exercise in mindful playing, but if anything it makes me feel that challenge and victory and gamey fun are part of feeling more alive.
Which puts me in mind of this…
@Person said:
I'll own up to it, its an attachment of mine. Its good to be reminded of the fact that it does add to delusion. Reflecting, I think I've made the decision (at least for the time being) that trying to live in the world and externally letting go of my attachments leads to me living a miserable life. I'm without any interests and still unable to really achieve meaningful dissolution because I do take care of my responsibilities and that requires me to take on the energy of the world to an extent that removes the spiritual rewards of a tranquil emotional state.
I find I can achieve tranquility if given the peace and quiet in extended stretches, but in a way the world becomes rather flat and grey when I do so. Perhaps really letting go of attachments does lead to this, a world without suffering but also without passions. And games are just the thing that puts colour back in.
The argument between my Buddhist self and my gaming self continues…
*** In this post I will be talking about poker. I do not recommend that anyone play poker, especially from a Buddhist perspective. Feel free to not read this post, especially if you have addiction problems in general or gambling problems in particular.
I've been occasionally following along with this thread but did not think I had anything to contribute since I did not believe I play games, except on occasion. However, I just realized I made a game into a livelihood, talking about a blind-spot! I also wrote in my journal thread that I would open the topic of my poker-playing at some point, so here goes.
For the last a bit over 5 years I've been playing online poker and learning about good strategies for winning players, which I've been. I started as an "amateur" playing for peanut-stakes and as my knowledge increased moved up in stakes to where these days I can support myself fully by playing a few hours a day and watching training videos for in average another hour. My main source of income for the last 2.5 years has been poker (with a stint with working too).
I've always been profitable so there is no element of losing money. I only paid in 50$ and grew my bankroll from winnings. At least, that's something good. I am not rich, currently I can barely sustain myself, but I can. To give you some idea: when I was very focused on poker about 2 years ago and the games were good because of Covid, I made around 3 average salaries, while now when it's less in focus, and the games are tougher, I make around an average salary. Keep in mind that these are averages, with poker you do not "get a paycheck".
For those less knowledgeable about poker, a few points I believe are important:
Short-term (hours, even days or sometimes weeks), poker has a big element of luck and a big element of skill. Long-term (weeks, months, years...) the luck evens out and it's all skill.
Poker is a computer-solved game and we know what good strategies are. Hence, poker can be learned as any other skill. These days, the best players are "geeks" who spend hours every day learning computer-strategies and trying to emulate them, not Texas-cowboys with big hats and guns on the table. Think chess, not roulette.
While some develop a gambling problem, many do not, and from what I can gather from youtube etc. the top players treat it as any other mental-sport and are not degenerate gamblers. There is some scientific proof for this view as well.
Playing on online-sites is safe, secure, etc.
The pros of what poker has given me:
after my mental health breakdown, clear confirmation that my brain/mind is good. I always considered myself as a strong intellectual, so it was nice that I could excel in an intellectual discipline. Whether you are good or bad at poker is very clear in the long-run, just watch your results.
for the first time in my life, a gut-feeling certainty that I can support myself. Working jobs, I was always concerned that with my sketchy mental-health my job position was very insecure (mostly that I would break-down again and quit).
Excitement, something to do, something rational to learn, money (with the added excitement that with effort to learn I could earn much more than in a normal job according to my degree)
The negatives:
Being constantly socially criticized and only rarely praised.
Sometimes, having to hide that I play poker.
Socially, being "out of place", different to others, not making social connections based on shared interest/work.
It's a loners lifestyle, since I play online.
I am very much afraid of becoming addicted. I've become addicted to some things in the past so know how difficult it is to break an addiction. Currently, I do not think I am addicted, but there might be elements of addiction too.
I find that I excel and feel secure in "closed-systems" - such as games - which are not open-ended. With poker, we can learn the correct strategy, the goals are known, there are a limited number of rules. With jobs - and life in general - everything is much more unclear, even the goals are often unknown, there are an infinite number of (job-related, social, technological...) rules, some of which we know, some of which we don't - so I feel less secure and more anxious.
The short and to-the point version of my conclusion today is:
I would like to work at a normal job
But, with my anxiety and social anxiety I find this very difficult, deep down, I believe even impossible long-term
So I continue to play poker but am afraid of becoming addicted
And am not enjoying the game or lifestyle very much any more
Plus I notice that poker does not influence my mind well long-term
Maybe also or even primarily because of all the guilt, shame, anxiety around it...
I will post more another day. Feel free to comment. Thanks for reading.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I used to play free online poker back when it really boomed in popularity. I think the thing that it taught me the most was how to think probabilistically and long term. What I didn't like about it was the way I'd start enjoying beating or tricking other people.
As far as an income. I'm self employed and there is a feast or famine aspect to it, but I live below my means and I feel that even if things slow down there will be enough work to get by, there isn't the fear of losing my job and having no income.
Regarding the social anxiety. It is an issue when you're isolated, it reinforces the anxiety, it tells the brain that it is indeed dangerous to interact with people and isolation equals safety. The only real way to get better is through at first small, but increasing social engagement.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited October 2023
I’ve played a bit of poker online and socially with friends in some small home tournaments, I never did it seriously though, I didn’t spend the time on it learning to get good at the game although I did win a few of the tournaments among friends. So I’m sort of familiar with different aspects of playing.
I quite enjoyed it, the mechanical aspects of putting together a winning hand, a bit of excitement, the idea of reading people and tricking others, the idea of victory. The playing for money part never really grabbed me as particularly captivating, so I never really considered it gambling.
For me it was an innocent bit of fun, a pleasant and social game but it didn’t excite or captivate me in the way that a really good role-playing game did. What I didn’t like so much is that it sets you up in conflict against the other players, your winning means they have to lose. So in terms of dealing with social anxiety it does put you in a place where you have “enemies” and where the world is an unfriendly place, which is not ideal or a real representation of the world.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I think a key point of games and spirituality is that games cause a proliferation of thinking, and even more thinking towards the goal of winning. It goes counter to a spiritual life in some ways. If you choose to try and not attach to thought, games make that more difficult. It will stir up desires and passions.
Even a board game like Ticket To Ride has random elements like shuffled cards, which can cause surprise, excitement and attachment as you achieve a mini-goal or progress towards the overall goal. And in a more sophisticated computer game these things are purposefully explored and highlighted to make the game more enticing, to draw you in.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Today I came across this, which struck me as relevant…
To transcend, not to win – to transcend. This word is very beautiful. What does it mean, to ”transcend”?
It is just as if a small child is playing with his toys. You tell him to put them away and he becomes angry. Even when he goes to sleep he goes with his toys, and the mother has to remove them when he has fallen asleep. In the morning the first thing that he demands to know is where his toys are and who has taken them away. Even in the dream he dreams about the toys. Then suddenly one day he forgets about the toys. For a few days they remain in the corner of his room, and then they are removed or thrown away; never again does he ask for them. What has happened?
He has transcended, he has become mature. It is not a fight and a victory; it is not that he was fighting against the desire to have toys. No, suddenly one day he sees this is childish and he is no more a child; suddenly one day he realizes that toys are toys, they are not real life and he is ready for the real life. His back is turned towards the toys. Never again in dreams will they come; never again will he think about them. And if he sees some other child playing with toys, he will laugh; he will laugh knowingly... a knowing laugh, a wise laugh. He will say, ”He’s a child, still childish, playing with toys.” He has transcended.
Transcendence is a very spontaneous phenomenon. It is not to be cultivated. You simply become more mature. You simply see the whole absurdity of a certain thing... and you transcend.
Osho, Tantra: The Supreme Understanding
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited January 14
@Jeroen said:
Today I came across this, which struck me as relevant…
To transcend, not to win – to transcend. This word is very beautiful. What does it mean, to ”transcend”?
It is just as if a small child is playing with his toys. You tell him to put them away and he becomes angry. Even when he goes to sleep he goes with his toys, and the mother has to remove them when he has fallen asleep. In the morning the first thing that he demands to know is where his toys are and who has taken them away. Even in the dream he dreams about the toys. Then suddenly one day he forgets about the toys. For a few days they remain in the corner of his room, and then they are removed or thrown away; never again does he ask for them. What has happened?
He has transcended, he has become mature. It is not a fight and a victory; it is not that he was fighting against the desire to have toys. No, suddenly one day he sees this is childish and he is no more a child; suddenly one day he realizes that toys are toys, they are not real life and he is ready for the real life. His back is turned towards the toys. Never again in dreams will they come; never again will he think about them. And if he sees some other child playing with toys, he will laugh; he will laugh knowingly... a knowing laugh, a wise laugh. He will say, ”He’s a child, still childish, playing with toys.” He has transcended.
Transcendence is a very spontaneous phenomenon. It is not to be cultivated. You simply become more mature. You simply see the whole absurdity of a certain thing... and you transcend.
Osho, Tantra: The Supreme Understanding
Its a criticism I'm familiar with, I've heard it plenty, "its childish, grow up", etc. It does bring up some of the teenage emotions of being teased or demeaned for my nerdy interests. But by and large I'm over it, I like playing games with people. I think I do it in a more mature way now, than when I was younger. Like engaging with character driven play in RPGs, or using games as a way to socialize and bond with others.
...Children possess a pure innocence that most adults have long lost. They embrace their curiosity, ask questions, and entertain novel ideas with humility and wonder. As adults, we tend to refrain from asking questions, fearing it may expose our ignorance or vulnerability.
To truly appreciate the beauty and enchantment of everyday life, we need to adopt a childlike perspective characterized by wonder and inquisitiveness.
The journey of adulthood is often laden with responsibilities, stress, and challenges, making us yearn for the carefree days of our childhood. We find solace in reminiscing about those days when life was simpler and less complicated...
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I feel like you have these parts of yourself that you'd like to be otherwise, and are trying to convince yourself that its so. I'm not sure that I'm on the best path, but I guess I've developed a strategy of learning to appreciate and embrace who you are first. Then on the spiritual path if differing attitudes develop unwanted things simply fall away, it doesn't need to be forced.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited January 15
For me, spirituality has to do with what is real, and ultimately games are other people’s dreams. That is why I am letting them go, they are constructed worlds which really have nothing to teach about what is real. I’ve felt no urge at all to play over the last few months. It has just fallen away, I forgot about them.
Being a carefree adult seems to me different from being a childlike adult. In a way gaming has something to do with not getting to grips with the world as it truly is, it is an escape into dreamlike landscapes of the mind. I agree with you @person that it has a way to make safe contact with other people more possible, like in RPGs but in a way you have to think more about what you are doing with the imagination.
A more mature way to be with the imagination is to see the world as a spiritual, living place. To be more in tune with the natural world, and notice how it plays with your imagination.
The other thing that occurs to me is that games speak a language of illusory desire. Any of your desires can come true in games. Power, adventure, romance, travelling the stars… all from a comfy and safe place. But it’s all samsara, the wheel of dukkha, it’s just a little more enticing.
There is a more interesting game afoot.
It's call life or existence.
That should be your playground.
It is a game too but the stakes are much higher.
Satta sutta- A Being
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
For me, spirituality has to do with what is real, and ultimately games are other people’s dreams. That is why I am letting them go, they are constructed worlds which really have nothing to teach about what is real. I’ve felt no urge at all to play over the last few months. It has just fallen away, I forgot about them.
Being a carefree adult seems to me different from being a childlike adult. In a way gaming has something to do with not getting to grips with the world as it truly is, it is an escape into dreamlike landscapes of the mind. I agree with you @person that it has a way to make safe contact with other people more possible, like in RPGs but in a way you have to think more about what you are doing with the imagination.
A more mature way to be with the imagination is to see the world as a spiritual, living place. To be more in tune with the natural world, and notice how it plays with your imagination.
The other thing that occurs to me is that games speak a language of illusory desire. Any of your desires can come true in games. Power, adventure, romance, travelling the stars… all from a comfy and safe place. But it’s all samsara, the wheel of dukkha, it’s just a little more enticing.
I guess I simply don't see them in the same negative light that you do. When I was young I would be lost in worlds and ignore my life. These days they're more of a temporary escape, like watching a movie or reading a book. I get the impression that you're trying to live a more wholly spiritual life than I am though, so from your perspective they are more of a hindrance. But its not like all the superior mature people are free from hang ups and misperceptions of the world.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited January 15
@person said:
I guess I simply don't see them in the same negative light that you do.
It is personal, and connected to where you are on your spiritual journey, I think. I am not a very complex being, I have one centre of consciousness and experience everything full-on, it is an all-or-nothing affair. So for me games were a huge experience, I would throw myself in them one-hundred percent.
Which is also why, having seen them as an extension of samsara in a way that makes the world of suffering unnecessarily more complex, bigger, more seductive — I can’t continue with them even for the undoubted social benefits. It’s like having seen it’s unbeneficial nature, he puts it away and does not pine for them.
@person said:
But its not like all the superior mature people are free from hang ups and misperceptions of the world.
There are plenty of fields to have hangups about, that’s for sure. Being spiritual is a great one, trying to be spiritual is such a trap! 🙏
I just go where insight and my inner compass lead me, the fact that I can forget about games and just drop them for extended periods is a good sign I think.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
I guess I simply don't see them in the same negative light that you do.
It is personal, and connected to where you are on your spiritual journey, I think. I am not a very complex being, I have one centre of consciousness and experience everything full-on, it is an all-or-nothing affair. So for me games were a huge experience, I would throw myself in them one-hundred percent.
Which is also why, having seen them as an extension of samsara in a way that makes the world of suffering unnecessarily more complex, bigger, more seductive — I can’t continue with them even for the undoubted social benefits. It’s like having seen it’s unbeneficial nature, he puts it away and does not pine for them.
This is helpful, I think I was projecting my attitude of preferring synthesis and balance onto you.
@person said:
But its not like all the superior mature people are free from hang ups and misperceptions of the world.
There are plenty of fields to have hangups about, that’s for sure. Being spiritual is a great one, trying to be spiritual is such a trap! 🙏
I just go where insight and my inner compass lead me, the fact that I can forget about games and just drop them for extended periods is a good sign I think.
What has worked for me is when I know I have some sensible time set aside for games my mind is more free of them in the mean time. Its the same with treats and indulgent foods, I allow myself a cheat day and have little desire for them throughout the week, eating healthy is much less of a struggle.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I was just paying a visit to another forum on mental health and learned that there is now such a thing as a recognised Gaming Disorder, which came from the World Health Organisation and is about whether players prioritise gaming in such a way that it impairs normal life. I think even when I played World of Warcraft intensively I never quite reached that level, but according to a TEDx talk which researched some statistics on the subject only about 1% of players game for 4 hours a day, and I was definitely part of that group for a while.
There is also a YouTube channel called Game Quitters which is about what it takes to quit gaming, what it ends up costing you, and a different view on games. They also talk about different approaches games take towards earning money and free to play systems, how games are built to foster addiction and so on. I found it very interesting that people are taking an interest in the mental health aspects of this.
Personally my interest is more about the intersection of games and spirituality, and the things I observed in myself about what was going on in the deeper areas of my mind after I had quit gaming. It is the whole thing of cleansing your mind, letting go of things that you had thought were important, realising that those things weren’t actually important.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Just to get some perspective on the numbers involved…
The press likes to talk down to games and gamers, but in fact it is only a small percentage of people that have difficulty with it, and those people are mostly ones who experience some lack in their day-to-day life.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I fell into the difficult relationship you're talking about. At times I'd hop on as soon as I got home from work and play for 3 or 4 hours and often play all day on the weekend. There was always something more to do, and as I got more involved with guild activities and end game content, even when I would rather do something else I had commitments to others I needed to uphold. Even with free to play tablet games I'd have a few of them and spend a lot of time hopping from one to the other. That aspect of gaming I have let go of. On occasion I dip into a more intensive game and after an hour or two there's that sort of drained, zoned out feeling that leaves me feeling worse and I remember why I left behind that sort of behavior.
There's a psychologist with a YouTube channel called HealthyGamerGG with 2 million subs. I haven't watched many of his videos but they seem directed at the psychology around games you're referring to.
Anyone think of the 4NT or DO or Cognitive dissonance when looking at the legs this thread seems to have.?
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@how said:
Anyone think of the 4NT or DO or Cognitive dissonance when looking at the legs this thread seems to have.?
I didn’t think people would be interested, other than me and @person … but it is a big and complex topic. Todays games are literally whole worlds in which some enthused people spend a big part of their lives. I used to be one of those people, and this thread is my attempt at untangling it all.
The 4NT came into my life after I finished with games in 2012. I think they apply as much to the game worlds as to the real world, but really computer games are sets of abstractions, some taken from the real world and some not, and working with those abstractions means we are almost not in our right minds. It’s like some natural instincts are suspended, and others are enhanced by the lessons you have learnt about living in the game worlds, which sometimes go against the dharma because these game worlds go against what is natural in this world.
My experience is that playing games intensively makes it harder to learn the dharma, there is more junk you have to unload from your mind, and it is all junk other people have dreamt up, purposefully creating puzzle worlds for people to spend time in.
If you really want to explore Buddhist principle in game worlds, that is probably beyond the scope of this thread, which has mostly been a personal process on my part to come to terms with slowly letting go of the last vestiges of gaming.
I know of no attachments more widely addictive to todays worlds inhabitants than the electronic visual stimulation that we are all plugged into. Gaming is just part of it.
Could you go a day, a week, a month, a year without it?
How would our excuses for not dropping electronic visual stimulations, compare to any other typical addict explaining how they could take or leave their addiction of choice anytime they decided to.
What would your life look like if you absolutely dropped all of it for just one month?
Would you be surprised to see a strong enough collection of disconcerting withdrawal symptoms arising to cause most folks to quit and go back to their regular mainlining again?
If you could stick with its absence, is what you replace it with, just your new attachment of choice?
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited January 25
@how said:
I know of no attachments more widely addictive to todays worlds inhabitants than the electronic visual stimulation that we are all plugged into. Gaming is just part of it.
Certainly true. The whole well-known phenomenon of ‘phone zombies’ is just one manifestation, there is a hidden legion of tablet zombies lounging on couches, beds and comfy chairs as well. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok are all highly addictive, as are forums.
Could you go a day, a week, a month, a year without it?
I have yet to try, but I will have a go at some point.
How would our excuses for not dropping electronic visual stimulations, compare to any other typical addict explaining how they could take or leave their addiction of choice anytime they decided to.
It is difficult not to be reachable by phone, email or text in this society.
What would your life look like if you absolutely dropped all of it for just one month?
Very different. I currently spend about 10 hours a day on my iPad, on forums, browsing and YouTube mainly. I’d be spending that time in other ways.
Would you be surprised to see a strong enough collection of disconcerting withdrawal symptoms arising to cause most folks to quit and go back to their regular mainlining again?
I would imagine it would be a bit of a struggle, there are well-known protocols for the digital detox.
If you could stick with its absence, is what you replace it with, just your new attachment of choice?
Perhaps. We are creatures of habit.
To be honest, I’d probably read a lot. This is kinda what I do with the internet anyway. Since I don’t need to work I’m used to having a lot of leisure time, and whether it is spent listening to Terence McKenna on YouTube or reading books is not hugely different.
I could shift the way I spend my time, doing more creative things in an effort to move the needle for other people. Living more of a life of service perhaps. That is certainly the way that NDEs seem to point in.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
A very good video @lobster, and very appropriate to the theme of the thread. I especially liked the metaphor of the seasonal cycle of trees, that every autumn they let their leaves go, and that in a similar way we sometimes have to let go of important parts of our lives, be that a job, a relationship or a hobby like gaming.
I never quite got to the end of the ‘mindful gaming’ experiment, in a way just being in contact with a game again overwhelmed my ability to be at peace with it, and in the end I had to be content with just knowing ‘they are illusionary puzzle worlds you explore’ without knowing exactly what was drawing me towards a given game.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I too still spend a large part of my free time on visual media. Normally I have a few weekends, or a bit more camping or something where I'm away from it and I don't really have a craving for it though. There are generally plenty of other stimuli like people or taking a hike which maybe keeps me distracted enough. At the same time there are some people there who do spend time on their phone, even to the point of heading off to the ranger station for the Wifi.
I guess what I'm saying is, going off of my personal experience, it seems there is a way of being where you can use these things and still not be so emotionally addicted to them.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I have the day off and decided to spend about 3 hours playing an old game. I feel like I've wasted a big part of my day that could have been much better spent. I could have learned something or spent the time getting my life more in order, taking care of the things that need taking care of. On top of that I feel worse off than when I started.
I think that some part of everyone's day (if possible) should be playful. But not too much. What works for me is to sort of have a list of virtuous things to do and then do those first and then have some type of play in the evening. Could be play tug or fetch with my dog for 5 minutes, or could be explore a video game. Could be reading or cooking. I used to paint (badly).
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I have the day off and decided to spend about 3 hours playing an old game. I feel like I've wasted a big part of my day that could have been much better spent. I could have learned something or spent the time getting my life more in order, taking care of the things that need taking care of. On top of that I feel worse off than when I started.
I feel somewhat regretful about that. I certainly wouldn’t want to stop anyone from just simple play. In a way even something as ordinary as clowning around, waggling a pair of cushions over your head like ears while you pull a funny face is playing. It’s an instinct in humans that goes back as far as the laughter the clowning tries to bring forth, the cleanest expression of a baby’s joy you’ll hear, and not only from children but also from old men like my stepfather.
But then I no longer feel obliged to spend my days well. I don’t think I could even define what that means. For the last ten years I’ve held that there is nothing more important than the spiritual path, and I’ve spent that time studying every spiritual classic I could lay my hands on, everything from the modern, like Nisargadatta Maharaj’s I Am That, to the ancient, like the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching. That means I have spent up to ten hours a day on my iPad, reading, foruming, listening.
In the end, I borrow a line from Osho and say I am against seriousness. I think one should smile at existence, be light of heart and mind. When you have truly let all your burdens go, and you are but a wandering beggar monk in your imagination for a while, a blissful peace comes to visit you before desire and worry finds you again. I wouldn’t let a game give me new cares, they are the figments of someone else’s imagination and not worth losing a grain of peace over.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeffrey said:
I think that some part of everyone's day (if possible) should be playful. But not too much. What works for me is to sort of have a list of virtuous things to do and then do those first and then have some type of play in the evening. Could be play tug or fetch with my dog for 5 minutes, or could be explore a video game. Could be reading or cooking. I used to paint (badly).
I have a similar sort of strategy I think. I do set aside time for meditation and listening to teachings or other psychological or philosophical things. When I am with other people I spend the time with them rather than looking to escape. Other than that though I'm pretty relaxed regarding my behavior, judging more by the intuitive sense of how it makes me feel rather than a set of rules.
The game did agitate me and left me feeling that way for a while, that though led to wanting to sooth myself with comfort junk food, which now also will leave a bad feeling. But there is a mindfulness about the results of these choices and it helps serve as a reminder about the fruits of certain actions vs others.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I am reminded of the story of my cousin, who plays games on his PC a few hours a week. I was talking to him about gaming, and in the end he said that even though he gamed relatively little he wouldn’t be able to give it until up. It was mostly games like No Man’s Sky that he plays, so not really social online kinds of games. It made me wonder whether only heavy social gamers have a problem with addiction.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
I am reminded of the story of my cousin, who plays games on his PC a few hours a week. I was talking to him about gaming, and in the end he said that even though he gamed relatively little he wouldn’t be able to give it until up. It was mostly games like No Man’s Sky that he plays, so not really social online kinds of games. It made me wonder whether only heavy social gamers have a problem with addiction.
It makes some sense, when there are other people involved different psychological factors can come in to play. I'm thinking of things like social comparison where you want to get better stuff and higher accomplishments to impress the other gamers. Or something more wholesome like camaraderie, you don't quit because someone else you know is also doing the thing or someone asks for your help, etc.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Jeroen said:
Personally my interest is more about the intersection of games and spirituality, and the things I observed in myself about what was going on in the deeper areas of my mind after I had quit gaming.
The one thing that still bothers me is that those times playing World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons were some of the most alive I have ever felt. Wonder, awe, achievement, excitement, socialising, heroism, service, all those were present, but I’m not sure I can put my finger on exactly what caused it. It was like the feeling you get in a really good dream, or watching a great film for the first time.
Leaving my WoW character naked in front of the Ironforge bank in the end was like chopping off an arm, that was a sure sign of an emotional investment that had gone deeper than was healthy. But was that level of caring also something that made the game great, that fuelled that feeling of aliveness? If you care, that makes the danger of losing more real.
In a way winning that tabletop game of Ticket to Ride against my cousin and his family brought back a bit of a similar feeling, a satisfaction. Of course in World of Warcraft it is hard to lose anything significant, unless you really don’t know what you are doing. Maybe it is the cumulative effect of all those small victories, of knowing you are going to win some more, that makes you feel alive in those games.
Perhaps the aliveness was just adrenaline and wide-eyed wonder combining. I can certainly feel where you’re coming from @person when you say that without games life would be a bit miserable (or words to that effect).
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I'll own up to it, its an attachment of mine. Its good to be reminded of the fact that it does add to delusion. Reflecting, I think I've made the decision (at least for the time being) that trying to live in the world and externally letting go of my attachments leads to me living a miserable life.
This is the passage in particular that has stayed with me @person. Games are something that lends colour and excitement to life in a safe way. If I were to try and find the attributes I mentioned in the above post in the real world, I’d have to become some kind of world traveller to very adventurous places.
Where I am now is coping with a certain ambiguity. On the one hand I’m glad to have had those gaming experiences, and on the other hand I realise that they are spiritually not helpful, that they do add to the delusion.
I recall a long series of dreams I had during my period of Buddhist studies in which I was back in games development and playing games. They were kind of joyful dreams, but also dreams which presented questions, about programming, generalship, combat, computers, machines even. They began when I had been meditating for a while, and these were part of what convinced me that my period in games development had influenced me on a spiritual level.
I think it had to do with my passion, I was pretty total for quite a while in both work and play, to the exclusion of things like starting a family, which I certainly had the financial room to do.
@person said:
I have the day off and decided to spend about 3 hours playing an old game. I feel like I've wasted a big part of my day that could have been much better spent. I could have learned something or spent the time getting my life more in order, taking care of the things that need taking care of. On top of that I feel worse off than when I started.
These days, seems to me:
bad = short-term comfort, long-term discomfort
good = short-term discomfort, long-term comfort
Awake or distracted? The simpler a task the easier to be mindful and ask, “awake or distracted?”Strangely we are dreaming ourselves into reality or playing at awakening until we realise we are being dreamt out of our experience …
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
I'll own up to it, its an attachment of mine. Its good to be reminded of the fact that it does add to delusion. Reflecting, I think I've made the decision (at least for the time being) that trying to live in the world and externally letting go of my attachments leads to me living a miserable life.
This is the passage in particular that has stayed with me @person. Games are something that lends colour and excitement to life in a safe way. If I were to try and find the attributes I mentioned in the above post in the real world, I’d have to become some kind of world traveller to very adventurous places.
Where I am now is coping with a certain ambiguity. On the one hand I’m glad to have had those gaming experiences, and on the other hand I realise that they are spiritually not helpful, that they do add to the delusion.
I recall a long series of dreams I had during my period of Buddhist studies in which I was back in games development and playing games. They were kind of joyful dreams, but also dreams which presented questions, about programming, generalship, combat, computers, machines even. They began when I had been meditating for a while, and these were part of what convinced me that my period in games development had influenced me on a spiritual level.
I think it had to do with my passion, I was pretty total for quite a while in both work and play, to the exclusion of things like starting a family, which I certainly had the financial room to do.
What I mean by that is there is a sort of inner peace and happiness that comes from spiritual work. I've experienced that at times when I've been able to retreat from the world and focus inwardly. Living in the world requires efforts and activities that stir things up and a level of taking in the neurosis of the rest of the world. What that means for me is I go out into the world, take on negativity, come home and doing the spiritual work means confronting, processing and settling all that stuff. Only to go right out back into it, so all of the difficulty with little of the inner reward.
What a regulated and healthier intake of some worldly pleasures gives me is some kind of worldly happiness in my life. A big part of me would like to live that sort of blissed out meditative life, but for various reasons I'm resistant to taking that plunge. I've spent many years of my life on the edge of that leap, but have now decided that I'm probably not going to take it, so I'm attempting live a life of balance between spiritual and worldly.
I'm venting some of my pain and frustration right now, because like I said a part of me would like to let it all go. But my experience so far has been that the inner happiness and peace rewards of a spiritual life aren't really on the table while living in the world, so I'm stuck with worldly pleasures that aren't so toxic and hopefully have some positive benefit too.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
bad = short-term comfort, long-term discomfort
good = short-term discomfort, long-term comfort
To me it seems, to a right mind that which is beneficial will carry its own reward, in peace and right feeling. Generally the mind tends to continue doing what is pleasurable, and one can be carried off by craving and pleasurable activities, rather than by what is beneficial. Therefore one should decide to prefer peace over pleasure.
For the ordinary man, pleasure-seeking behaviour is the norm. Think of taking a whiskey after coming home in the evening, or a chocolate desert after dinner. These things are not wholly bad, but as soon as you go chasing them to excess they become part of a destructive pattern. Therefore restraint and moderation are the way for the spiritual man. It isn’t bad to take in the things you enjoy, but one should tend towards restraint.
But in the term of games, I do have noticed a lack of connection with any lately. I have only really enjoyed Project Zomboid and Red Dead Redemption 2.
I did buy a few... and at the end it seems the creative, artistic and story/rich ones are the only ones that truly captivate my attention and time. I used to play WoW and that sucked so many hours, but I remember how motivated I was to create and dwell there with my friends. I think that social aspects has now changed a lot. Many people discuss on how instantaneous some games became, killing the entire social aspect. Why did we go there to socialise instead of the real world... i consider nature better and less stimulating and deteriorating, yet maybe it is better to sit cosy at home with a hot tea and game, headphones on, rather than outside hiding from bears.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I think you do outgrow certain games at a certain point. I used to enjoy Panzer General and Civilization, but there was a time when they didn’t provide enough richness anymore, and I stepped over to games like Half-Life 2 and Mass Effect and Fallout 4. For me this was about story and myth in the game world, I wasn’t so much into the detailed tweaking of mechanics anymore.
World of Warcraft is mythologically an incredibly rich game, it has massive amounts of very high-quality lore. I used to really enjoy the quests, all the various tasks which you would do to advance the story line. There was only one time that I really got into the social aspect and that was when I was raiding regularly in the time of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair. After that I became a casual gamer, I bought each expansion up to Mists of Pandaria and would play a few months only to abandon the game again.
But in a way games aren’t a true mythology, because each time you complete a game you leave it behind and don’t retell the story ever again. With myths you keep the stories alive, preferably around a campfire. I still feel the draw of story, but mostly in the form of films and books, I consider that a purer form.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
The 50th Anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons is tomorrow.
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
This video seemed rather apt to the question of games, which are really about desire.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
It occurred to me today that there are different levels of gaming addiction: a high level, where you spend excessive amounts of time and start to neglect your life, and a low level, where you might play in bursts or just a few hours a week but are still unable to let go of the habit. This low-level addiction is far more common, and to understand it we need to look at the needs games fulfil in people’s lives.
Games in the first instance provide an opportunity for a temporary escape into a brightly-coloured imaginary world, a chance to get away from the routine of ordinary life into a place of excitement and adventure where you have real control over your life. Often compared to the humdrum of the ordinary it is a way of safely experiencing all kinds of interesting and exciting situations.
That fulfils certain psychological needs to counter feelings of powerlessness, of being trapped, of not being in control of your life, of not getting what you want. Games provide you a freedom to express yourself in a safe, virtual environment where nothing real is at risk.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I was listening to an audiobook of Eckhart Tolle’s A New World and listening to him describe the factors that feed the ego, it seems to me that computer games give the ego exactly what it wants. The illusion of control, of gaining ever more, of power and also enemies to fight against, all within a safe environment. That is very much food for thought.
Comments
It’s definitely true that games still have a draw for me. But that’s what I am doing in this thread, unfolding in detail what it is that draws me, and what my more spiritual side has been telling me about them. I wasn’t really aware of what played with this for me, just that I noticed that even after ten years of not playing games there was still this occasional strong enthusiasm for them, and particularly for role playing games and open-world adventures and strongly story-driven shooters.
I’m kind of hoping that by exploring it, and by making clear the factors that draw me, I can find a release from it — I can find out whether the things that enthuse me have value, or not. The question is whether engaging with games is beneficial in some way. What I was quoting in the “Non-Buddhist quotes” topic yesterday from U.G. about thoughts and them actually being the sum total of your own personal samsara is similar. Games are an exploration of the imagination, all the possible worlds that might be, and as such are an “endless subject”.
I’ve arrived at the point where I found that role playing games satisfied certain needs in me, such as the “need to be needed”, the desire to do good, the desire to explore and be free. In games these things are available in a way that they aren’t in real life. But is that a basic need or some kind of a psychological result of my childhood, some result of a trauma which is as-yet unaddressed or some form of deep-seated conditioning?
I’m toying with the idea of writing a book about it, by now I have a pretty deep understanding of games, and I’ve explored my own perspectives more. It’d be about the history, design, theory and spiritual aspects of games.
Well spotted though, I’ve always enjoyed maker / crafting hobbies. I’ve gone a fair way into pottery and wood crafting in the past but currently lack a good place for a workshop. When I was young I used to love Lego, I had this big basket full of pieces and would make all sorts of things. It was the imagination, making something and then using it in an imaginary adventure with other pieces.
Recalling this post from the first page of this topic, I do think passion has a lot to do with it. When I was playing the table-top game Ticket To Ride at my cousin’s house, I noticed being pleased whenever I could achieve one of my small goals, and I was positively glowing at my overall victory. It made me feel much more alive.
Noticing these things as I was playing required a bit more awareness than I usually display, so a little bit of concentration. It was a good exercise in mindful playing, but if anything it makes me feel that challenge and victory and gamey fun are part of feeling more alive.
Which puts me in mind of this…
I find I can achieve tranquility if given the peace and quiet in extended stretches, but in a way the world becomes rather flat and grey when I do so. Perhaps really letting go of attachments does lead to this, a world without suffering but also without passions. And games are just the thing that puts colour back in.
The argument between my Buddhist self and my gaming self continues…
*** In this post I will be talking about poker. I do not recommend that anyone play poker, especially from a Buddhist perspective. Feel free to not read this post, especially if you have addiction problems in general or gambling problems in particular.
I've been occasionally following along with this thread but did not think I had anything to contribute since I did not believe I play games, except on occasion. However, I just realized I made a game into a livelihood, talking about a blind-spot! I also wrote in my journal thread that I would open the topic of my poker-playing at some point, so here goes.
For the last a bit over 5 years I've been playing online poker and learning about good strategies for winning players, which I've been. I started as an "amateur" playing for peanut-stakes and as my knowledge increased moved up in stakes to where these days I can support myself fully by playing a few hours a day and watching training videos for in average another hour. My main source of income for the last 2.5 years has been poker (with a stint with working too).
I've always been profitable so there is no element of losing money. I only paid in 50$ and grew my bankroll from winnings. At least, that's something good. I am not rich, currently I can barely sustain myself, but I can. To give you some idea: when I was very focused on poker about 2 years ago and the games were good because of Covid, I made around 3 average salaries, while now when it's less in focus, and the games are tougher, I make around an average salary. Keep in mind that these are averages, with poker you do not "get a paycheck".
For those less knowledgeable about poker, a few points I believe are important:
The pros of what poker has given me:
The negatives:
I find that I excel and feel secure in "closed-systems" - such as games - which are not open-ended. With poker, we can learn the correct strategy, the goals are known, there are a limited number of rules. With jobs - and life in general - everything is much more unclear, even the goals are often unknown, there are an infinite number of (job-related, social, technological...) rules, some of which we know, some of which we don't - so I feel less secure and more anxious.
The short and to-the point version of my conclusion today is:
I will post more another day. Feel free to comment. Thanks for reading.
I used to play free online poker back when it really boomed in popularity. I think the thing that it taught me the most was how to think probabilistically and long term. What I didn't like about it was the way I'd start enjoying beating or tricking other people.
As far as an income. I'm self employed and there is a feast or famine aspect to it, but I live below my means and I feel that even if things slow down there will be enough work to get by, there isn't the fear of losing my job and having no income.
Regarding the social anxiety. It is an issue when you're isolated, it reinforces the anxiety, it tells the brain that it is indeed dangerous to interact with people and isolation equals safety. The only real way to get better is through at first small, but increasing social engagement.
I’ve played a bit of poker online and socially with friends in some small home tournaments, I never did it seriously though, I didn’t spend the time on it learning to get good at the game although I did win a few of the tournaments among friends. So I’m sort of familiar with different aspects of playing.
I quite enjoyed it, the mechanical aspects of putting together a winning hand, a bit of excitement, the idea of reading people and tricking others, the idea of victory. The playing for money part never really grabbed me as particularly captivating, so I never really considered it gambling.
For me it was an innocent bit of fun, a pleasant and social game but it didn’t excite or captivate me in the way that a really good role-playing game did. What I didn’t like so much is that it sets you up in conflict against the other players, your winning means they have to lose. So in terms of dealing with social anxiety it does put you in a place where you have “enemies” and where the world is an unfriendly place, which is not ideal or a real representation of the world.
I think a key point of games and spirituality is that games cause a proliferation of thinking, and even more thinking towards the goal of winning. It goes counter to a spiritual life in some ways. If you choose to try and not attach to thought, games make that more difficult. It will stir up desires and passions.
Even a board game like Ticket To Ride has random elements like shuffled cards, which can cause surprise, excitement and attachment as you achieve a mini-goal or progress towards the overall goal. And in a more sophisticated computer game these things are purposefully explored and highlighted to make the game more enticing, to draw you in.
Today I came across this, which struck me as relevant…
Its a criticism I'm familiar with, I've heard it plenty, "its childish, grow up", etc. It does bring up some of the teenage emotions of being teased or demeaned for my nerdy interests. But by and large I'm over it, I like playing games with people. I think I do it in a more mature way now, than when I was younger. Like engaging with character driven play in RPGs, or using games as a way to socialize and bond with others.
I feel like you have these parts of yourself that you'd like to be otherwise, and are trying to convince yourself that its so. I'm not sure that I'm on the best path, but I guess I've developed a strategy of learning to appreciate and embrace who you are first. Then on the spiritual path if differing attitudes develop unwanted things simply fall away, it doesn't need to be forced.
For me, spirituality has to do with what is real, and ultimately games are other people’s dreams. That is why I am letting them go, they are constructed worlds which really have nothing to teach about what is real. I’ve felt no urge at all to play over the last few months. It has just fallen away, I forgot about them.
Being a carefree adult seems to me different from being a childlike adult. In a way gaming has something to do with not getting to grips with the world as it truly is, it is an escape into dreamlike landscapes of the mind. I agree with you @person that it has a way to make safe contact with other people more possible, like in RPGs but in a way you have to think more about what you are doing with the imagination.
A more mature way to be with the imagination is to see the world as a spiritual, living place. To be more in tune with the natural world, and notice how it plays with your imagination.
The other thing that occurs to me is that games speak a language of illusory desire. Any of your desires can come true in games. Power, adventure, romance, travelling the stars… all from a comfy and safe place. But it’s all samsara, the wheel of dukkha, it’s just a little more enticing.
There is a more interesting game afoot.
It's call life or existence.
That should be your playground.
It is a game too but the stakes are much higher.
I guess I simply don't see them in the same negative light that you do. When I was young I would be lost in worlds and ignore my life. These days they're more of a temporary escape, like watching a movie or reading a book. I get the impression that you're trying to live a more wholly spiritual life than I am though, so from your perspective they are more of a hindrance. But its not like all the superior mature people are free from hang ups and misperceptions of the world.
It is personal, and connected to where you are on your spiritual journey, I think. I am not a very complex being, I have one centre of consciousness and experience everything full-on, it is an all-or-nothing affair. So for me games were a huge experience, I would throw myself in them one-hundred percent.
Which is also why, having seen them as an extension of samsara in a way that makes the world of suffering unnecessarily more complex, bigger, more seductive — I can’t continue with them even for the undoubted social benefits. It’s like having seen it’s unbeneficial nature, he puts it away and does not pine for them.
There are plenty of fields to have hangups about, that’s for sure. Being spiritual is a great one, trying to be spiritual is such a trap! 🙏
I just go where insight and my inner compass lead me, the fact that I can forget about games and just drop them for extended periods is a good sign I think.
This is helpful, I think I was projecting my attitude of preferring synthesis and balance onto you.
What has worked for me is when I know I have some sensible time set aside for games my mind is more free of them in the mean time. Its the same with treats and indulgent foods, I allow myself a cheat day and have little desire for them throughout the week, eating healthy is much less of a struggle.
I was just paying a visit to another forum on mental health and learned that there is now such a thing as a recognised Gaming Disorder, which came from the World Health Organisation and is about whether players prioritise gaming in such a way that it impairs normal life. I think even when I played World of Warcraft intensively I never quite reached that level, but according to a TEDx talk which researched some statistics on the subject only about 1% of players game for 4 hours a day, and I was definitely part of that group for a while.
There is also a YouTube channel called Game Quitters which is about what it takes to quit gaming, what it ends up costing you, and a different view on games. They also talk about different approaches games take towards earning money and free to play systems, how games are built to foster addiction and so on. I found it very interesting that people are taking an interest in the mental health aspects of this.
Personally my interest is more about the intersection of games and spirituality, and the things I observed in myself about what was going on in the deeper areas of my mind after I had quit gaming. It is the whole thing of cleansing your mind, letting go of things that you had thought were important, realising that those things weren’t actually important.
Just to get some perspective on the numbers involved…
The press likes to talk down to games and gamers, but in fact it is only a small percentage of people that have difficulty with it, and those people are mostly ones who experience some lack in their day-to-day life.
I fell into the difficult relationship you're talking about. At times I'd hop on as soon as I got home from work and play for 3 or 4 hours and often play all day on the weekend. There was always something more to do, and as I got more involved with guild activities and end game content, even when I would rather do something else I had commitments to others I needed to uphold. Even with free to play tablet games I'd have a few of them and spend a lot of time hopping from one to the other. That aspect of gaming I have let go of. On occasion I dip into a more intensive game and after an hour or two there's that sort of drained, zoned out feeling that leaves me feeling worse and I remember why I left behind that sort of behavior.
There's a psychologist with a YouTube channel called HealthyGamerGG with 2 million subs. I haven't watched many of his videos but they seem directed at the psychology around games you're referring to.
Anyone think of the 4NT or DO or Cognitive dissonance when looking at the legs this thread seems to have.?
I didn’t think people would be interested, other than me and @person … but it is a big and complex topic. Todays games are literally whole worlds in which some enthused people spend a big part of their lives. I used to be one of those people, and this thread is my attempt at untangling it all.
The 4NT came into my life after I finished with games in 2012. I think they apply as much to the game worlds as to the real world, but really computer games are sets of abstractions, some taken from the real world and some not, and working with those abstractions means we are almost not in our right minds. It’s like some natural instincts are suspended, and others are enhanced by the lessons you have learnt about living in the game worlds, which sometimes go against the dharma because these game worlds go against what is natural in this world.
My experience is that playing games intensively makes it harder to learn the dharma, there is more junk you have to unload from your mind, and it is all junk other people have dreamt up, purposefully creating puzzle worlds for people to spend time in.
If you really want to explore Buddhist principle in game worlds, that is probably beyond the scope of this thread, which has mostly been a personal process on my part to come to terms with slowly letting go of the last vestiges of gaming.
I know of no attachments more widely addictive to todays worlds inhabitants than the electronic visual stimulation that we are all plugged into. Gaming is just part of it.
Could you go a day, a week, a month, a year without it?
How would our excuses for not dropping electronic visual stimulations, compare to any other typical addict explaining how they could take or leave their addiction of choice anytime they decided to.
What would your life look like if you absolutely dropped all of it for just one month?
Would you be surprised to see a strong enough collection of disconcerting withdrawal symptoms arising to cause most folks to quit and go back to their regular mainlining again?
If you could stick with its absence, is what you replace it with, just your new attachment of choice?
Good questions from @how
Here is a video for leftovers
Certainly true. The whole well-known phenomenon of ‘phone zombies’ is just one manifestation, there is a hidden legion of tablet zombies lounging on couches, beds and comfy chairs as well. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok are all highly addictive, as are forums.
I have yet to try, but I will have a go at some point.
It is difficult not to be reachable by phone, email or text in this society.
Very different. I currently spend about 10 hours a day on my iPad, on forums, browsing and YouTube mainly. I’d be spending that time in other ways.
I would imagine it would be a bit of a struggle, there are well-known protocols for the digital detox.
Perhaps. We are creatures of habit.
To be honest, I’d probably read a lot. This is kinda what I do with the internet anyway. Since I don’t need to work I’m used to having a lot of leisure time, and whether it is spent listening to Terence McKenna on YouTube or reading books is not hugely different.
I could shift the way I spend my time, doing more creative things in an effort to move the needle for other people. Living more of a life of service perhaps. That is certainly the way that NDEs seem to point in.
A very good video @lobster, and very appropriate to the theme of the thread. I especially liked the metaphor of the seasonal cycle of trees, that every autumn they let their leaves go, and that in a similar way we sometimes have to let go of important parts of our lives, be that a job, a relationship or a hobby like gaming.
I never quite got to the end of the ‘mindful gaming’ experiment, in a way just being in contact with a game again overwhelmed my ability to be at peace with it, and in the end I had to be content with just knowing ‘they are illusionary puzzle worlds you explore’ without knowing exactly what was drawing me towards a given game.
I too still spend a large part of my free time on visual media. Normally I have a few weekends, or a bit more camping or something where I'm away from it and I don't really have a craving for it though. There are generally plenty of other stimuli like people or taking a hike which maybe keeps me distracted enough. At the same time there are some people there who do spend time on their phone, even to the point of heading off to the ranger station for the Wifi.
I guess what I'm saying is, going off of my personal experience, it seems there is a way of being where you can use these things and still not be so emotionally addicted to them.
I have the day off and decided to spend about 3 hours playing an old game. I feel like I've wasted a big part of my day that could have been much better spent. I could have learned something or spent the time getting my life more in order, taking care of the things that need taking care of. On top of that I feel worse off than when I started.
I think that some part of everyone's day (if possible) should be playful. But not too much. What works for me is to sort of have a list of virtuous things to do and then do those first and then have some type of play in the evening. Could be play tug or fetch with my dog for 5 minutes, or could be explore a video game. Could be reading or cooking. I used to paint (badly).
I feel somewhat regretful about that. I certainly wouldn’t want to stop anyone from just simple play. In a way even something as ordinary as clowning around, waggling a pair of cushions over your head like ears while you pull a funny face is playing. It’s an instinct in humans that goes back as far as the laughter the clowning tries to bring forth, the cleanest expression of a baby’s joy you’ll hear, and not only from children but also from old men like my stepfather.
But then I no longer feel obliged to spend my days well. I don’t think I could even define what that means. For the last ten years I’ve held that there is nothing more important than the spiritual path, and I’ve spent that time studying every spiritual classic I could lay my hands on, everything from the modern, like Nisargadatta Maharaj’s I Am That, to the ancient, like the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching. That means I have spent up to ten hours a day on my iPad, reading, foruming, listening.
In the end, I borrow a line from Osho and say I am against seriousness. I think one should smile at existence, be light of heart and mind. When you have truly let all your burdens go, and you are but a wandering beggar monk in your imagination for a while, a blissful peace comes to visit you before desire and worry finds you again. I wouldn’t let a game give me new cares, they are the figments of someone else’s imagination and not worth losing a grain of peace over.
I have a similar sort of strategy I think. I do set aside time for meditation and listening to teachings or other psychological or philosophical things. When I am with other people I spend the time with them rather than looking to escape. Other than that though I'm pretty relaxed regarding my behavior, judging more by the intuitive sense of how it makes me feel rather than a set of rules.
The game did agitate me and left me feeling that way for a while, that though led to wanting to sooth myself with comfort junk food, which now also will leave a bad feeling. But there is a mindfulness about the results of these choices and it helps serve as a reminder about the fruits of certain actions vs others.
I am reminded of the story of my cousin, who plays games on his PC a few hours a week. I was talking to him about gaming, and in the end he said that even though he gamed relatively little he wouldn’t be able to give it until up. It was mostly games like No Man’s Sky that he plays, so not really social online kinds of games. It made me wonder whether only heavy social gamers have a problem with addiction.
It makes some sense, when there are other people involved different psychological factors can come in to play. I'm thinking of things like social comparison where you want to get better stuff and higher accomplishments to impress the other gamers. Or something more wholesome like camaraderie, you don't quit because someone else you know is also doing the thing or someone asks for your help, etc.
The one thing that still bothers me is that those times playing World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons were some of the most alive I have ever felt. Wonder, awe, achievement, excitement, socialising, heroism, service, all those were present, but I’m not sure I can put my finger on exactly what caused it. It was like the feeling you get in a really good dream, or watching a great film for the first time.
Leaving my WoW character naked in front of the Ironforge bank in the end was like chopping off an arm, that was a sure sign of an emotional investment that had gone deeper than was healthy. But was that level of caring also something that made the game great, that fuelled that feeling of aliveness? If you care, that makes the danger of losing more real.
In a way winning that tabletop game of Ticket to Ride against my cousin and his family brought back a bit of a similar feeling, a satisfaction. Of course in World of Warcraft it is hard to lose anything significant, unless you really don’t know what you are doing. Maybe it is the cumulative effect of all those small victories, of knowing you are going to win some more, that makes you feel alive in those games.
Perhaps the aliveness was just adrenaline and wide-eyed wonder combining. I can certainly feel where you’re coming from @person when you say that without games life would be a bit miserable (or words to that effect).
This is the passage in particular that has stayed with me @person. Games are something that lends colour and excitement to life in a safe way. If I were to try and find the attributes I mentioned in the above post in the real world, I’d have to become some kind of world traveller to very adventurous places.
Where I am now is coping with a certain ambiguity. On the one hand I’m glad to have had those gaming experiences, and on the other hand I realise that they are spiritually not helpful, that they do add to the delusion.
I recall a long series of dreams I had during my period of Buddhist studies in which I was back in games development and playing games. They were kind of joyful dreams, but also dreams which presented questions, about programming, generalship, combat, computers, machines even. They began when I had been meditating for a while, and these were part of what convinced me that my period in games development had influenced me on a spiritual level.
I think it had to do with my passion, I was pretty total for quite a while in both work and play, to the exclusion of things like starting a family, which I certainly had the financial room to do.
These days, seems to me:
bad = short-term comfort, long-term discomfort
good = short-term discomfort, long-term comfort
Awake or distracted? The simpler a task the easier to be mindful and ask, “awake or distracted?”Strangely we are dreaming ourselves into reality or playing at awakening until we realise we are being dreamt out of our experience …
What I mean by that is there is a sort of inner peace and happiness that comes from spiritual work. I've experienced that at times when I've been able to retreat from the world and focus inwardly. Living in the world requires efforts and activities that stir things up and a level of taking in the neurosis of the rest of the world. What that means for me is I go out into the world, take on negativity, come home and doing the spiritual work means confronting, processing and settling all that stuff. Only to go right out back into it, so all of the difficulty with little of the inner reward.
What a regulated and healthier intake of some worldly pleasures gives me is some kind of worldly happiness in my life. A big part of me would like to live that sort of blissed out meditative life, but for various reasons I'm resistant to taking that plunge. I've spent many years of my life on the edge of that leap, but have now decided that I'm probably not going to take it, so I'm attempting live a life of balance between spiritual and worldly.
I'm venting some of my pain and frustration right now, because like I said a part of me would like to let it all go. But my experience so far has been that the inner happiness and peace rewards of a spiritual life aren't really on the table while living in the world, so I'm stuck with worldly pleasures that aren't so toxic and hopefully have some positive benefit too.
To me it seems, to a right mind that which is beneficial will carry its own reward, in peace and right feeling. Generally the mind tends to continue doing what is pleasurable, and one can be carried off by craving and pleasurable activities, rather than by what is beneficial. Therefore one should decide to prefer peace over pleasure.
For the ordinary man, pleasure-seeking behaviour is the norm. Think of taking a whiskey after coming home in the evening, or a chocolate desert after dinner. These things are not wholly bad, but as soon as you go chasing them to excess they become part of a destructive pattern. Therefore restraint and moderation are the way for the spiritual man. It isn’t bad to take in the things you enjoy, but one should tend towards restraint.
My studies require me to be long hours on the PC even though most turn into procrastination and endless wikipedia & intellectual search.
These days, seems to me:
bad = short-term comfort, long-term discomfort
good = short-term discomfort, long-term comfort
This is how to break poor habits and engage in new ones in a nutshell.
But in the term of games, I do have noticed a lack of connection with any lately. I have only really enjoyed Project Zomboid and Red Dead Redemption 2.
I did buy a few... and at the end it seems the creative, artistic and story/rich ones are the only ones that truly captivate my attention and time. I used to play WoW and that sucked so many hours, but I remember how motivated I was to create and dwell there with my friends. I think that social aspects has now changed a lot. Many people discuss on how instantaneous some games became, killing the entire social aspect. Why did we go there to socialise instead of the real world... i consider nature better and less stimulating and deteriorating, yet maybe it is better to sit cosy at home with a hot tea and game, headphones on, rather than outside hiding from bears.
I think you do outgrow certain games at a certain point. I used to enjoy Panzer General and Civilization, but there was a time when they didn’t provide enough richness anymore, and I stepped over to games like Half-Life 2 and Mass Effect and Fallout 4. For me this was about story and myth in the game world, I wasn’t so much into the detailed tweaking of mechanics anymore.
World of Warcraft is mythologically an incredibly rich game, it has massive amounts of very high-quality lore. I used to really enjoy the quests, all the various tasks which you would do to advance the story line. There was only one time that I really got into the social aspect and that was when I was raiding regularly in the time of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair. After that I became a casual gamer, I bought each expansion up to Mists of Pandaria and would play a few months only to abandon the game again.
But in a way games aren’t a true mythology, because each time you complete a game you leave it behind and don’t retell the story ever again. With myths you keep the stories alive, preferably around a campfire. I still feel the draw of story, but mostly in the form of films and books, I consider that a purer form.
The 50th Anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons is tomorrow.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2024/01/dungeons-dragons-the-rulebook-that-started-it-all-is-50-years-old/
This video seemed rather apt to the question of games, which are really about desire.
It occurred to me today that there are different levels of gaming addiction: a high level, where you spend excessive amounts of time and start to neglect your life, and a low level, where you might play in bursts or just a few hours a week but are still unable to let go of the habit. This low-level addiction is far more common, and to understand it we need to look at the needs games fulfil in people’s lives.
Games in the first instance provide an opportunity for a temporary escape into a brightly-coloured imaginary world, a chance to get away from the routine of ordinary life into a place of excitement and adventure where you have real control over your life. Often compared to the humdrum of the ordinary it is a way of safely experiencing all kinds of interesting and exciting situations.
That fulfils certain psychological needs to counter feelings of powerlessness, of being trapped, of not being in control of your life, of not getting what you want. Games provide you a freedom to express yourself in a safe, virtual environment where nothing real is at risk.
I was listening to an audiobook of Eckhart Tolle’s A New World and listening to him describe the factors that feed the ego, it seems to me that computer games give the ego exactly what it wants. The illusion of control, of gaining ever more, of power and also enemies to fight against, all within a safe environment. That is very much food for thought.