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We need to be cultivating peace.

Thanks for the insightful post @Steve_B ...

When the labels such as Arab, Jew, Asian, African, European, etc, etc, are removed, what's left are human beings who support Israel's actions and human beings who don't....

Psycho-physical beings capable of generating great love and compassion or great hatred and heartlessness ....

We all have a choice ....

@Shoshin1 said:
I don't think those who have posted here are anti-Semitic/anti-Israel. They are expressing their concerns regarding the Israeli government's actions, which are not only making Israeli citizens and the surrounding regions unsafe but are also making Jewish people around the world unsafe.

This is of course exactly right. Commenting on the actions of those in power at the moment does not make one categorically anti semitic.

I am a Jew by birth, family name is Bernard. My sister and I were raised Jewish, and still keep some of the traditions. I am fully aware of the holocaust, the formation of Israel, the unwavering US political and military support, which at the time was clearly an appropriate honorable stance. Over the generations though, things have a way of changing.

I am horrified and disgusted by the actions of those currently in the Israeli government and military. And I am not alone. Jews all around the planet are joining an initiative called Not In Our Name, to express the perspective that we don’t condone the outrageous violence of the IDF. We’re Jewish, we’re pro-Israel, and we detest what Israel is currently inflicting upon their fellow humans.

Many people in the West were shocked when hearing about Hamas's attack and the killing of Israelis. Many supported Israel's right to retaliate. However, when Israel started to target and bomb homes, hospitals, schools, mosques, and churches, cutting off power, water, food and medical supplies, (with blatant disregard for international humanitarian laws) resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and babies, including the targeting of Journalists, and humanitarian workers... support for their actions waned and then shifted to the Palestinian civilian population...

Israel’s current violent actions are defended by some as not a first strike but rather a response to Palestinian violence that preceded it. And within such a tightly drawn perspective this is technically quite true, though in the big picture it is an aggravating response. The Hamas attack is defended by some as not a first strike but rather a response to Israeli violence that preceded it. Also technically true, also aggravating the situation. BOTH sides believe they are responding appropriately to violence initiated by the other side. This goes back generations, millenia. The current violence will not solve it; quite the contrary. Israel may be considered to have the “right” to retaliate, but it is an obvious step in exactly the wrong direction. What is really meant by “right?”

At this point in history, Israel has access to the most powerful weapons America can produce. Power corrupts. But what happens when Iran builds a nuke? Over the generations, things have a way of changing.

We need to be cultivating peace.

While I don't agree with Israel's current actions, I find it extremely concerning that BECAUSE of Israel's current actions, the losses they suffered at the beginning of a war they didn't start are swept under the rug or reasoned away. Women WERE raped, tortured and killed. Babies WERE butchered. Hostages WERE held in despicable conditions and hostage holders ARE UNWHR teachers being paid by the UN. Hostages ARE still being held presumably with substandard medical care.

These are still acts of criminality and just as subject to scrutiny as Israel's actions. Yet I don't see Hamas being brought to court. The lack of accountability does not sit well with me. And THAT is just wrong.

I don't think those who have posted here are anti-Semitic/anti-Israel. They are expressing their concerns regarding the Israeli government's actions, which are not only making Israeli citizens and the surrounding regions unsafe but are also making Jewish people around the world unsafe.

Many people in the West were shocked when hearing about Hamas's attack and the killing of Israelis. Many supported Israel's right to retaliate. However, when Israel started to target and bomb homes, hospitals, schools, mosques, and churches, cutting off power, water, food and medical supplies, (with blatant disregard for international humanitarian laws) resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians, including men, women, children, and babies, including the targeting of Journalists, and humanitarian workers... support for their actions waned and then shifted to the Palestinian civilian population...

@Steve_B said:
“The attack by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.”
UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres

Wise words.

Indeed.

One of the salient conditions in this and other conflicts between Israel and Palestine, is that nobody asks question like why did Hamas attack? What prompted the attack and when it was executed? What was the objective?

And is Israel trying to remove Hamas, or to rid Gaza of all Palestinians, dead or alive, to make more room for settlement. IOW an ethnic cleansing.

And why does the US so blindly allow Israel carte blanche?

The current "Leadership" in Israel has, as of today, no interest in ending the war.
Yes, Hamas committed a horrendous act of terrorism.
No, the people of Gaza are not Hamas.
Yes, the people of Gaza are paying a horrendous price for the acts of Hamas.
Neither Hamas nor the current Israeli "Leadership" have any intention of ending the ongoing conflict, even if the IDF packs up and declares victory.
As with all such conflicts and wars, only the arms manufacturers and a few profeteers "gain" from this one. Yet, even they lose.
As it seems no resolution will be accomplished, when the guns fall silent and the status quo is reestablished, the terrible cycle will begin anew.
This is the fundamental darkness in it's horrific manifestation.
For peace, true peace, both sides (or all sides) must acknowledge each other's humanity. The must not see only, "Those others" the great "They". Only when they recognize "Those others" as persons, as fellow human beings, as true neighbors, can the healing and growth begin. A necessary but daunting task indeed. War is easy - Peace takes hard work and ongoing diligence.

A prayer for all who are suffering in war and intolerance.

@Shoshin1 said:

@marcitko said:
Deleted by author. Don't think I can add something helpful at this moment.

Your (now deleted) causality post did provide some food for thought @marcitko ....

For this to have happened, that must have happened and because that happened this as now happened....

Thank you, I'll repost it then.

What I was thinking was that the way in which we see this conflict (and things in general) depends on the events we include in our analysis and the perceived causality.

Roughly, it seems to me these are the options. In each one, I just add one preceding causality and c/p the former chain of events.

a) Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.
b) Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
c) Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
d) Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
e) Nazi attrocities against the Jews --> Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.

In this thread, NB members have analyzed the situation at different times from different A-E viewpoints. Hence, their conclusions have sometimes been different.

I consider myself a "relativist in recovery", so I am not trying to relativize everything away, just maybe to add some context to our disagreements so that we see that those we have disagreed with are not totally mad or immoral or negative in X sense.

Hope this makes sense. Am on my first morning coffee