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@IdleChater said:

@person said:
I mean, the history of tobacco is pretty clear. This teaching on tobacco is presented as a revealed teaching, (a terma) and taught as if its real.

Termas are generally like that, and they sometimes run contrary to mundane knowledge. That does not mean they're untrue. It means you lack understanding of what's being taught. How many termas have you read? If there's a Shambhala center near you, go there and see if you can get a look at Trungpa's terma, the Sadhana of Mahamudra.

I'm pretty sure that PR didn't care about the history of tobacco. Nor does the terma he discovered.

I care. From my perspective its fine and good to have metaphoric teachings that teach an important lesson. I'm a big fan of fantasy and fiction that tell deeper truths. I care, because not being able to distinguish reality from fantasy in a relatively harmless situation as the tobacco teaching creates a state of mind that is more vulnerable to harmful fantasy. Think of how objectionable some modern Christian beliefs are and how gullible its followers are in believing them.

I think its an example of why the Buddha himself taught to test the teachings rather than take them in as a matter of trust or respect in the teacher.

You refer to the Kalama Sutra, right? The teaching of the KS presents specific guidelines how to test a teaching. He did not leave that to our whim.

I'd also add that there is an important distinction between being skeptical and cynical. Skeptical has a test to be passed

I've always felt that what passes for skepticism is more of an excuse to not commit yourself.

One last, when you were in high school, they taught the Speed of Light. 186,000 miles per second. You believe that, right? Did you test that? It's right up there with Pi as important numbers go. Deserves testing, right? With the right equations, you could probably figure it out with the calculator on your cell phone. Have you done that?

There is a certain amount of trust one has to put in knowledge others have come to. I do have faith in the scientific process. I have come to be much more skeptical these days of scientific reporting and individual studies. A rough rubric that I think makes sense is that 90% of what appears in science textbooks is right and 90% of what appears in science journals is wrong or incomplete.

I did spend the formative part of my Buddhist life in Tibetan Buddhism. I've sat at the feet for many hours of Geshes, Rinpoches and college professors. I've come to believe that their words are in fact not the words of a perfect teacher. That in spite of often considerable knowledge and realization they are still human and subject to flaws and misunderstandings. There is a lot I have to learn from them, but taking it in unquestioningly I think is a mistake.

@IdleChater said:

@Jeroen said:
So, @IdleChater, do you believe that tobacco originated from a demon?

No. But I'm not dismissing Rinpoche's teaching because of that, either. But it's not a question of belief.

Can you explain what you mean here. It reads to me like you're saying you do reject the teaching on the origin of tobacco, but then you say you don't dismiss it.

Do you mean you don't take the origin of tobacco literally, but still value the metaphorical or moral message of the teaching? Or something else?

Buddhism isn't defined by anyone's belief. Truth is not defined by anyone's belief.

But what is true? Is something true simply because its Buddhist? What about all the other religion's claims to truth?

If someone takes umbrage over a literal statement without going to the source for clarification, they have a much bigger problem than a lack of understanding.

That's a pretty high bar not to reject or question a teaching unless you can talk directly to the person who said it.

Peace, love and Self Peacing ...

There's a mountain of information out there. Much of it contradictory. Without a skeptical mind, one is likely to be blown this way and that, taking on whatever one has been most recently exposed to.

More than that though a thorough and true understanding of most topics requires multiple points of view. Its like my avatar picture, "how something appears is always a matter of perspective."

I've been around enough spiritual teachings and at times have heard highly respected and realized teachers say obviously mistaken things to the point where I test the information I'm taking in, as a goldsmith would.

@Jeroen said:

@Jeroen said:

I am going to go slower, taking more time to read books and preserve my own standpoint while I read.

And there's the trap!

Have you looked at the Notification Preferences at the top righthand corner of the drop down menu when you click on Notifications...
There are boxes one can tick for "Notify me when people comment on discussions I've participated in." if it is ticked untick it..

Otherwise you can just ignore by not clicking on any of the discussions/topics you have no interest in...

Having an open heart is not simply blind acceptance of what is written. The correct approach is synthesis between what you feel to be true, and the truth of what is written.