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@Steve_B said:
“The attack by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.”
UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres

Wise words.

Indeed.

One of the salient conditions in this and other conflicts between Israel and Palestine, is that nobody asks question like why did Hamas attack? What prompted the attack and when it was executed? What was the objective?

And is Israel trying to remove Hamas, or to rid Gaza of all Palestinians, dead or alive, to make more room for settlement. IOW an ethnic cleansing.

And why does the US so blindly allow Israel carte blanche?

The current "Leadership" in Israel has, as of today, no interest in ending the war.
Yes, Hamas committed a horrendous act of terrorism.
No, the people of Gaza are not Hamas.
Yes, the people of Gaza are paying a horrendous price for the acts of Hamas.
Neither Hamas nor the current Israeli "Leadership" have any intention of ending the ongoing conflict, even if the IDF packs up and declares victory.
As with all such conflicts and wars, only the arms manufacturers and a few profeteers "gain" from this one. Yet, even they lose.
As it seems no resolution will be accomplished, when the guns fall silent and the status quo is reestablished, the terrible cycle will begin anew.
This is the fundamental darkness in it's horrific manifestation.
For peace, true peace, both sides (or all sides) must acknowledge each other's humanity. The must not see only, "Those others" the great "They". Only when they recognize "Those others" as persons, as fellow human beings, as true neighbors, can the healing and growth begin. A necessary but daunting task indeed. War is easy - Peace takes hard work and ongoing diligence.

A prayer for all who are suffering in war and intolerance.

@Shoshin1 said:

@marcitko said:
Deleted by author. Don't think I can add something helpful at this moment.

Your (now deleted) causality post did provide some food for thought @marcitko ....

For this to have happened, that must have happened and because that happened this as now happened....

Thank you, I'll repost it then.

What I was thinking was that the way in which we see this conflict (and things in general) depends on the events we include in our analysis and the perceived causality.

Roughly, it seems to me these are the options. In each one, I just add one preceding causality and c/p the former chain of events.

a) Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.
b) Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
c) Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
d) Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities
e) Nazi attrocities against the Jews --> Foolish settlement of Jews in Palestine supported by the West --> Regional wars --> Israel holds Gaza in a blockade and horrible conditions --> Hamas attacks Israel and commits attrocities --> Israel attacks Gaza and commits attrocities.

In this thread, NB members have analyzed the situation at different times from different A-E viewpoints. Hence, their conclusions have sometimes been different.

I consider myself a "relativist in recovery", so I am not trying to relativize everything away, just maybe to add some context to our disagreements so that we see that those we have disagreed with are not totally mad or immoral or negative in X sense.

Hope this makes sense. Am on my first morning coffee

I kind of get where @SuraShine is coming from. I'm far from fully informed, so I'm sure I'm missing some things. I guess I don't really follow mainstream news sources, so my perspective on what is being covered doesn't really reflect that. In my feed, there is plenty of criticism of Israel's actions. To me this conflict seems like a cycle of violence with victims and perpetrators all around. Coverage seems to be primarily about how one side is more to blame than the other in either direction depending on the source.

Hamas gets a brief slap on the wrist and then all the focus is on Israel. Gaza has received lots of international aid over the years and instead of improving life for Gazans, Hamas has used it for violence. Instead of building schools or bomb shelters for its citizens it has created tunnels, it has torn up water pipes to use as bombs. Hamas uses its citizens as shields and wants them to die at the hands of Israeli over reaction for the propaganda win. Hamas doesn't want peace, if they had the ability they would commit real genocide against the Jews of Israel and burn them off the map.

A major reason Israel has such heavy handed controls over Palestinians in the area is due to the very real security threat. Imagine if where you live surrounding countries harbored groups of people who wanted you dead, if on Oct 7th masses of Canadians crossed into US territory and slaughtered 10s of thousands of US citizens and then threatened to do it again and again, I'd be pretty scared too and want to be protected.

Israel is held to a higher standard. Everything Hamas has done easily violates war crime laws, but it isn't being taken to international court. There is some justification for this in terms of the legitimacy and power of both Hamas and Israel. And speaking out against Israel might have some effect, speaking out against Hamas isn't going to change their behavior one bit. And right now the bigger issue is how Israel is going about waging this fight. From my uninformed perspective I haven't really heard much about what they should do instead other than "stop it", which doesn't seem like much of a solution to the threat. In the end it is still a double standard though and it'd be nice to hear some perspective on Hamas' sins too.

My hope is that when the dust settles cooler heads will be able to start doing some real work towards a peaceful solution.

@person said:
I kind of get where @SuraShine is coming from. I'm far from fully informed, so I'm sure I'm missing some things. I guess I don't really follow mainstream news sources, so my perspective on what is being covered doesn't really reflect that. In my feed, there is plenty of criticism of Israel's actions. To me this conflict seems like a cycle of violence with victims and perpetrators all around. Coverage seems to be primarily about how one side is more to blame than the other in either direction depending on the source.

Hamas gets a brief slap on the wrist and then all the focus is on Israel. Gaza has received lots of international aid over the years and instead of improving life for Gazans, Hamas has used it for violence. Instead of building schools or bomb shelters for its citizens it has created tunnels, it has torn up water pipes to use as bombs. Hamas uses its citizens as shields and wants them to die at the hands of Israeli over reaction for the propaganda win. Hamas doesn't want peace, if they had the ability they would commit real genocide against the Jews of Israel and burn them off the map.

A major reason Israel has such heavy handed controls over Palestinians in the area is due to the very real security threat. Imagine if where you live surrounding countries harbored groups of people who wanted you dead, if on Oct 7th masses of Canadians crossed into US territory and slaughtered 10s of thousands of US citizens and then threatened to do it again and again, I'd be pretty scared too and want to be protected.

Israel is held to a higher standard. Everything Hamas has done easily violates war crime laws, but it isn't being taken to international court. There is some justification for this in terms of the legitimacy and power of both Hamas and Israel. And speaking out against Israel might have some effect, speaking out against Hamas isn't going to change their behavior one bit. And right now the bigger issue is how Israel is going about waging this fight. From my uninformed perspective I haven't really heard much about what they should do instead other than "stop it", which doesn't seem like much of a solution to the threat. In the end it is still a double standard though and it'd be nice to hear some perspective on Hamas' sins too.

My hope is that when the dust settles cooler heads will be able to start doing some real work towards a peaceful solution.

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Hamas and many Palestinians sees all Israelis as land grabbing occupier terrorists and a potential threat and with good reason to...
Israel and many Israeli sees all Palestinians as suicide bombing terrorists and a potential threat and with good reason to...

"Hurt people hurt people...Hatred begets more hatred...Violence begets more violence..."...

Acknowledging double standards is important. While Israel faces scrutiny, it's also very important to address violations by all parties involved. International bodies should hold accountable those responsible for war crimes, irrespective of their affiliation.

Has I've mentioned before, criticism of the Israeli government's actions doesn't necessarily imply support for Hamas. It's possible to hold both parties accountable for actions that violate international law. Israel's ongoing military actions, especially in densely populated areas, have raised many concerns about innocent civilian casualties.

Gaza has received international aid, but the effectiveness of aid distribution is influenced by various factors, including instability and conflict. Some argue that Israel's blockade also hampers development in the region.

The blockade, imposed by Israel in coordination with Egypt, has been in place since 2007, following the Hamas takeover of Gaza. While the blockade was initially implemented as a security measure to prevent the smuggling of weapons and materials that could be used for military purposes, it has had wide-ranging humanitarian and economic consequences. For example , the blockade imposes severe restrictions on the movement of goods and people, hindering the flow of essential materials for economic development. This has resulted in a struggling economy, high unemployment rates, and a reliance on international aid.

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One possible solution would be a one-state solution which would require the creation of a unified, democratic state encompassing Israel and the Palestinian territories. Key elements include equal rights and representation for all citizens, addressing security concerns, achieving demographic balance, respecting cultural and religious sensitivities, establishing a legal framework, promoting economic integration, and gaining international recognition and support. The feasibility and desirability of this solution vary, and any potential resolution would require extensive negotiation, compromise, and commitment from all parties involved.

Hope for a peaceful solution is shared by many and addressing the root causes of the conflict are essential steps toward lasting peace.

The root cause of the Israel-Palestine conflict lies in competing nationalisms and territorial claims. The conflict emerged from the clash of Jewish and Palestinian national aspirations over the same land. Both Jews and Palestinians have historical and cultural ties to the region, particularly to historic Palestine. The establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and subsequent conflicts over territory, refugees, and national identity have fueled the ongoing dispute. Key issues include borders, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and the broader challenge of coexistence between two national communities in a contested space. The conflict is deeply complex, with historical, religious, and political dimensions that continue to shape the region's dynamics

“The attack by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.”
UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres

Wise words.
Israel’s relentless cruel domination over the Palestinians for 56 years could ONLY produce this type of conflict. And until the US and Israel change course it is perfectly predictable that the smoldering will continue to produce intermittent flashes, and generations will continue to suffer. If Israel eradicates Hamas, other freedom fighters will arise. Rebellion against repression is seen throughout history. Ignorance, arrogance, and a limitless supply of US weapons over the decades have earned Israel the learned hatred of the Palestinian people. Their current actions are earning them the learned horror of a much wider group, some of whom now are transitioning from audience to participants.