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@Jeroen said:

@Vastmind said:
More of what Osho thought/said about something
. * rolls eyes *

Ok, ok. I didn’t know you guys objected. I will let it be for a while, although I do find him interesting, and he does get the ball rolling.

For the record, Osho did speak at length about the Sufi’s, often in glowing terms. But the fact is Islam has largely rejected Sufism, and has historically persecuted it’s saints, like Mansur al-Hallaj. And Osho came from a Jain family, not a Hindu one, so was never really concerned with castes.

So @Shoshin1, what do you think about honour killings? There was a recent case in the Netherlands about a Syrian father and two sons who killed a young adult daughter/sister. The religious climate does shape people’s expectations and behaviour.

Most of the rest of your points seem to be attacking Western standpoints, and shoring up Islam as a whole, and bringing in Osho’s reputation, without ever addressing what Osho said. Which is not really a sound basis for debate.

If you look at things like the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or the Charlie Hebdo murders, or the rape incidents in Germany from Syrian refugees, there seems to be a lot of more extreme and more violent mindsets amongst these people. I can’t say I approve.

Just out of interest @Jeroen, who do you mean by “these people”? Are you referring to the two billion Muslims in the world?

If you want to compare apples with apples when it comes to violent mindsets, you need to consider scale, context, and power. Western powers have invaded, bombed, occupied, sanctioned, and destabilised numerous Muslim-majority countries over the past century, often with catastrophic civilian death tolls. These were not fringe actions by extremists, but official state policies backed by governments, parliaments, and presidents.

By contrast, terrorism carried out by Muslims, while horrific, is usually the work of non-state actors and widely condemned across the Muslim world. These attacks have caused far fewer deaths than those resulting from Western wars, drone strikes, sanctions, and occupations.

If we’re being honest, the most destructive and far-reaching violence, measured in lives lost and long-term suffering, has overwhelmingly come from powerful Western states, not from Muslims.

Over the past century, conservative estimates suggest that between 4 and 12 million Muslims have died in conflicts involving Western powers: through wars, occupations, sanctions, and their aftermath. Most were civilians.

Now compare that with the estimated 30,000 to 40,000 Western soldiers killed, and 5,000 to 6,000 civilians killed by so-called Islamic terrorists in the same time period.

As for Rushdie, Charlie Hebdo, and the attacks in Germany, yes, those were brutal acts. But they were carried out by a small minority and do not represent all Muslims. Just as we would not blame all Christians for the Christchurch mosque attack, or all Jews for the actions of Israeli forces, we should not generalise here either.

What happened in the Netherlands was horrific, but honour killings are not unique to Muslims, nor are they supported by Islamic teachings. These are rooted in patriarchal customs found in many cultures: Christian, Hindu, and secular alike. Framing this as a religious issue only feeds a harmful and misleading narrative, @Jeroen.